The Gate

Hi, I am new to this and am hoping someone here will be happy to guide me,
thanks

Hi, I can be your guide if you like.

If you are interested, tell me first, "what are you looking for?"

On this forum, we are not teaching you, or helping you to achieve a certain experience,or a vision. we do one thing only, and that is to point you to look at the non existence of a self.

If that sounds like something you would be interested in, and you would like me to be your guide, let me know.

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark, thanks very much for responding. I am aware of the intention of the forum - to see the truth of no-self and that is why I am here. I appreciate that you are not a teacher but a guide, which is great for me because I have heard enough teachings in my life. I am here to see things as they are, and if you can help me with that I would be very grateful.
thanks again,
Jonny

Hi Jonny,

First could you read and agree to the following:

1. Please post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!" If you can't for some reason, just let me know.
2. I am not your teacher; all I can do is point. You look, until clear seeing happens.
3. In general, I will ask questions; you take time to look deeply and honestly, then respond with 100% honesty.
4. Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
5. Responses are best from your direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Please avoid long-winded analytical and philosophical answers. Stream-of-consciousness answers are also best avoided and may even hinder progress.
6. Please put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
7. Please learn to use the quote function; this is invaluable in referring to things that have been written in previous posts. See these instructions:- http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660


If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too. Please take a look at that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above, agree to them, and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

Also it would be handy to know which time zone you are in. I am in France: Central European Time (= GMT+1).

Cheers

Mark

Oops, forgot to link to the intro info, disclaimer and video: they are here:- http://www.liberationunleashed.com

M

Hi Mark, I am happy to agree to all the points you make. I have watched some of the videos and read the disclaimer and they are all part of the reason I am here. I would still like you to guide me and I take full responsibility for myself in this process. I am excited to see what happens.
Jonny

Mark, I am in the UK,
thanks,
Jonny

Ok then Jonny,

Please could you start by telling me what comes up when it is read that there is no “you” at all in reality, not in any shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be? There is only life moving freely, without any general manager called "you".

Then let me know what, if anything, you are are hoping will change, and any fears that may also be there.

Spend time pondering each question carefully, always looking at the present immediate experience, before answering.

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark,

Please could you start by telling me what comes up when it is read that there is no “you” at all in reality, not in any shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be? There is only life moving freely, without any general manager called "you".

When I first read these words I had a sense of relief. At last. Letting go, nothing to hold on to. That was followed by a brief experience of fear, just a few seconds and then it passed.

Two weeks ago I was at a weekend event where I did some group meditations on self enquiry. In those meditations I found after a while that beneath the various sensations and feelings I was experiencing, there was nothing, an empty space. It was as if my body and feelings were a shell which contained emptiness, a mystery. A friend had told me about liberation unleashed after he joined the forum last year but at that time, although I was very interested, I felt that I was not ready to engage with the process. But now I became very interested and started reading some of the dialogues on the forum. I felt an overwhelming sense of both excitement and fear. The fear was of dying. I felt that engaging in this process would mean letting go and that something of myself would die. This was something that although it provoked fear in me, was also impossible to ignore. And so I am here…

What are my expectations? I'm not sure I have any. I want to let go. I do not know what that will mean exactly or how easy it will be to do. I want it but I wouldn't say that I expect it.

After sitting with your words for a while I went for a walk. As I walked I repeated to myself "there is no 'I', there never has been and never will be." Thinking this provoked various responses. I found myself asking "if there is no 'I' then who is walking, who is making my legs move?" I looked at the few people also out walking and asked myself "who is making them walk?" I found myself walking in a kind of a daze. I was completely present but in some kind of heightened state. I felt a bit stunned. I reflected on the Santa analogy that is used by Elena and Ilona. I was asking myself "is this 'I' just a belief like the belief in Santa?" I kept walking and reflecting for quite a while. I felt that the belief was right in front of me and ready to fall away.

Jonny

Hi Jonny,

Great, thanks for that. Yes some fear is totally normal. It can be welcomed, looked at, and then let go of as it passes. And again whenever.

Clearly some seeing is already happening. So the flirting with believing in Santa, and not believing in Santa, begins. After all, what kid would want to forego all those big presents (which Santa brought, didn't he)?

A notebook will be useful.

1. I would like you to sit and close your eyes. Now, taking your time, where does 'Jonny' seem to reside, here and now. What size, location, shape and qualities does 'Jonny' have? When you have considered all this carefully, make notes. Then let me know what comes up.

2. Eyes open now. Look out from those eyes at the computer screen, or at something else. Where is 'you', where is the 'looking' and where is the 'thing looked at'? Where are the distinctions between these? Are they clear? Let me know what comes up.

Remember to keep your responses in your first-hand experience in the present. If any received ideas come up (eg from other teachings) just note those down too, as such, so that we can examine them, so that we can distinguish between theory and practical experience.

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark,

Here are my responses on doing as you suggested...

1. I would like you to sit and close your eyes. Now, taking your time, where does 'Jonny' seem to reside, here and now. What size, location, shape and qualities does 'Jonny' have? When you have considered all this carefully, make notes. Then let me know what comes up.

Where? I am conscious that 'Jonny' is a label. He is a humming, buzzing mass of energy, of stuff.
Both here and nowhere.

Shape? A sense of a figure - me - in action, suspended in mid-air, man-shape, as if running, a thin edge, a kind of skin, filled with buzzing energy. Having sat with it a little longer, there is a kind of 'jonny' shape that is not really a shape - it's like a gas, like the air, not in any place, everywhere.

Size seems irrelevant.

Qualities? Heat, a kind of fire but not on fire, warmth. Also it (he? I?) cannot be grasped, cannot be touched. Opaque, not solid but also not transparent.

2. Eyes open now. Look out from those eyes at the computer screen, or at something else. Where is 'you', where is the 'looking' and where is the 'thing looked at'? Where are the distinctions between these? Are they clear? Let me know what comes up.

Where am 'I'? Here, in my body, separate.

Where is the 'looking'? At first I thought the looking was coming from me. But then I felt that it's not in a place. It is connecting the object - a belt - and me, but it is not located anywhere.

Where is the 'thing looked at'? It is over there, also separate.

Distinctions. There are clear distinctions between me and the object, but the looking was in the space around myself and the object, it was connecting and holding both.
As I sat and observed these three things the distinctions felt as if they were fading but only very slightly.

Once or twice in this second exercise I found ideas of 'oneness' and 'interconnectedness' came into my mind as I found myself experiencing 'I' and the object as separate. The thought was that somehow I should experience it as the same, as one, just a flow or something, but I didn't. The idea dropped away as I observed it.

Thanks,
Jonny

Hi Jonny,

Thanks for that.

1. Plenty of descriptions there in response to the sensations going on: great! - "a thin edge, as if running, suspended, like a gas, warmth, opaque" etc. Do the sensations themselves carry any sense of aliveness? Can you consider each of them and say whether any of those descriptions given are any more than labels, added after the sensations? Are those labels themselves anything physical or real?
You mentioned: " 'Jonny' is a label. He is a humming, buzzing mass of energy, of stuff". You are saying that the label is something physical? Look at the sensations, the aliveness? Do these actually need a 'who' for the experiencing to happen? Look into this a little further and see what feels true.

2. Thanks. Now let's do that second exercise again, in a slightly different way. When you next make a drink for yourself, let's use several of the senses. eg cup of coffee, cup of tea, etc.
a) Smell the drink. self - smelling - drink. Close your eyes if you like. Notice where the sensation seems to arise. Stay with this until the 'self' and 'drink', and any other labels (eg quality of the aroma) are seen as labels. Are these labels themselves real physical things? See if there is any more than the sensation before its labels.
b) Taste the drink. self - tasting - drink. Again notice where the sensation seems to arise. Labels. Are the labels themselves real physical things? Is there any more than the sensation referred to as tasting? Is that word any more than a label?
c) Now put the cup down and look at it. self - looking - cup. The same: which are labels? What is the sensation? Where is it occurring? Is there a sense of distance? Where is this sense? Are the labels themselves real physical objects?
d) Now, maybe go back to the object for the original exercise: belt? Self - looking - belt. Are the labels themselves anything physical? What is the sensation? Is there a notion of distance? Where is this experienced? Stay with this until the labels are gone beyond and then look for the separation point between what is apparently being observed and what is apparently observing. Tell me what comes up.

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark, thanks for your comments and questions…

You mentioned: " 'Jonny' is a label. He is a humming, buzzing mass of energy, of stuff". You are saying that the label is something physical? Look at the sensations, the aliveness? Do these actually need a 'who' for the experiencing to happen? Look into this a little further and see what feels true.

The name Jonny is just a label trying to give a name to the buzzing mass of energy. The label itself is not something physical. The energy, the buzzing is just there, it doesn't need a 'who', they are just happening.

"a thin edge, as if running, suspended, like a gas, warmth, opaque" etc. Do the sensations themselves carry any sense of aliveness? Can you consider each of them and say whether any of those descriptions given are any more than labels, added after the sensations? Are those labels themselves anything physical or real?

The descriptions are labels, they are not the experiences, the sensations. The sensations are happening but the labels don't define them, they just describe them.

The sensations are alive, almost as if they are independent - they just are. They are happening but don't seem to belong to anything.

a) Smell the drink. self - smelling - drink. Close your eyes if you like. Notice where the sensation seems to arise. Stay with this until the 'self' and 'drink', and any other labels (eg quality of the aroma) are seen as labels. Are these labels themselves real physical things? See if there is any more than the sensation before its labels.

a) Self - smelling - drink

Self is just sensations - energy, heat, movement, touch, thought, awareness.

Smelling is just happening, it is itself, an activity given a name. Sensations of smell are as if suspended in the air, hanging.

Drink - I feel the cup but the cup is just a label. It is solid in my hand, I feel the heat, the label 'drink' becomes a bit meaningless, it is just a name.

b) Taste the drink. self - tasting - drink. Again notice where the sensation seems to arise. Labels. Are the labels themselves real physical things? Is there any more than the sensation referred to as tasting? Is that word any more than a label?

b) Self - tasting - drink

The labels are just labels. The sensations are there of themselves. They are the experience not the label.

'Tasting' just describes the experience of heat, the flavour, the liquidness, the 'taster', the tea being tasted.

As I sit and reflect on this I am conscious that the cup in my hand no longer feels like a cup. There are just different shapes that feel solid that I am holding.

Where do the sensations arise? There are just sensations. 'Self' is various sensations, they are over here. 'Drink' is various sensations - cup, tea, heat, flavour - they are over there. 'Tasting' is various sensations between self and the drink, it is both.

c) Now put the cup down and look at it. self - looking - cup. The same: which are labels? What is the sensation? Where is it occurring? Is there a sense of distance? Where is this sense? Are the labels themselves real physical objects?

c) Self - looking - cup

The cup is shapes, colour, light. The more I look, the more it seems just a combination of elements, of sensations which I am calling 'cup'.

My 'self' - I feel the sensations as I sit: contact, movement, heat, cold. I see different parts of my body - legs, hands, nose, belly. The term 'self' is just describing all these different sensations and experiences.

Looking - it is happening between self and the cup. I am not doing it. It is not being done, it is just there.

Distance - there is distance but it is also a sensation. It is a sense of self and the cup in relation to each other and the room. The cup feels both close up and apart.

d) Now, maybe go back to the object for the original exercise: belt? Self - looking - belt. Are the labels themselves anything physical? What is the sensation? Is there a notion of distance? Where is this experienced? Stay with this until the labels are gone beyond and then look for the separation point between what is apparently being observed and what is apparently observing. Tell me what comes up.

d) Self - looking - belt

The labels are just labels describing sensation, form, light, colour, texture.

There is distance but also no distance.

The labels disappear and there is just the sensations - some 'self', some 'belt', some 'looking'.

Where is the separation point? There isn't one. This made me laugh. There is no separation point!! (Big smile!).

Thanks again, Jonny

Hi Jonny,

Nice work.

Just a couple of other questions before we move on.

A)

There is distance but also no distance.

Where is the sensation of 'distance' experienced? Is the experience remote or is it here, immediate? How can you know that the distance is real?

B) Who/what is it who is having all these sensations/experiences, and who is applying all these labels and descriptions? Can you honestly say that it is a 'me', or anything more than Life 'painting itself as me', or Life 'contorting itself into a me-like shape'?

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark,

Where is the sensation of 'distance' experienced? Is the experience remote or is it here, immediate? How can you know that the distance is real?

I'm finding this a hard one to describe.

The distance seems real in the same sense that 'me' and the 'belt' seem real. But they no longer seem separate.
The sense of distance no longer means separation or, in some ways, difference. The belt has different form and quality to me. It is over there, I have to reach out to touch it. I can estimate how far it is from my eyes as I sit to the belt - about a metre. But the distance somehow seems to be just a part of the experience of 'me' and the 'belt'. It is part of the same essential quality and reality. The distance is not a separation but simply a part of the experience of 'me', the 'belt' and the room.

Who/what is it who is having all these sensations/experiences, and who is applying all these labels and descriptions? Can you honestly say that it is a 'me', or anything more than Life 'painting itself as me', or Life 'contorting itself into a me-like shape'?

It is kind of like the experiences are having the experiences, the sensations are 'having' themselves.

Who is applying the labels? Is it consciousness? I'm aware of myself watching the sensations and experiences, and then of myself watching myself. All these things seem to just be there, they happen. Thoughts and feelings happen too. They are all familiar and have the label 'me' or 'Jonny'. But I am not finding the 'me' within it or even outside it. So who is watching and commenting?

Life painting itself as 'me' - that is how it seems. The quality of 'me' is the same as the quality of the other things that I experience as being outside of myself. Energy, sensations, shapes, light. The 'me' also has feelings, thoughts, consciousness, but the quality is the same. It doesn't feel like there is any essential difference between the 'me' and the 'other'.

Life contorting - it doesn't feel like life is contorting. It seems quite natural, for 'me' in the same way as for the 'belt' or the 'tree' outside my window. They just seem like natural forms that life takes, but they are not more than that. As if the tree is a bit of life that we call 'tree' or that I am the bit of life that we call 'Jonny'.

thanks, Jonny