The Gate

Request still open for a guidance in helping me see into no-self. I put up an initial request for guidance a couple of days ago any, but didn't get any responses. Anybody willing to help me cut through the weeds of thought?

Respectfully
Saytya

You wrote previously,

There is the concern that I will lose effectiveness in mmoving forward with material goals, like getting a job, earning money, having good relationships and generally reaching peace and balance in all areas of this life situation. As wishy washy as that may sound, I am in ernest ready to look and see whatever needs to be seen. Looking for a guide who has seen through and has guided others. Also who understands where I may be coming from. Not necessary to have practiced vipassana, but a guide who has practiced vip, and been able to see using these methods would probably be helpful. My big question is, is it possible to release and still have goals?

It reads as though you want to go through the gateless gate with a self still intact. That cannot be done.

What, then, are your goals for asking here for guidance?

love
Nona

Hi Nona

Thanks for responding. Regarding my possibly wanting to go through the gate with a self intact, is more like uncertainty from where I stand. Uncertainty about the process and the result. My sincere and innocent priority is to come to see life as it really is. However, I have heard that after realization, life goes on, but without the "I". Hearing and reading about such notions can be confusing. I would like to clear up that confusion
Right now, I have only notions, sneaking suspicions, and what I have seen in my own life experience. I'm walking around here like one draped in a silk material that is partially seen through but very fuzzy. Knowing there is something more than this, but my glasses are dirty and I can't quite see clearly.
I am looking/requesting to work with with someone willing to deal with my ignorance with patience. I am willing to be 100% honest and I am highly motivated to let go of the veil. Don't know what a good guide means. What about you, Nona , are available

Dear Satya,

Are you willing to look at Life as it really is, even if your material goals lose all their desirability? If you stop wanting a job or money? If relationships break apart? If everything you want now turns to dust and ashes? If this is your path to liberation, will you take it wholeheartedly?

I am willing to point you, but I wouldn't know a Vipassana if I ran over one. Are you willing to walk with me?

love
Nona

I am willing. Somehow I sense assuredness and confidence in your handling the task. Do you feel confident? Oh, one more question. Do you suspect all the above mentioned that I am willing to give up may happen? "Dry up and turn to dust". How do we begin?
With eagerness and some excitement,

Satya

Hello Nora

Also wanted to add that I live in the U.S. It is 2:50 pm here now. Don't know what the time difference is between us. I read in your profile you live in the UK. Is that going to cause a problem for you?
Should we say a bit about each other as far as approach and expectations?

Satya

Hello Satya,

I have no expectations at all of what will happen for you.

Here's how we proceed: I'll ask questions; you investigate deeply, looking for your own truth from personal experience, not what you've read or heard from others.
You must take your time, answering with 100% honesty. It's an inquiry. I probe, you look deeply and respond.


We begin. Tell me what comes up for you, in the body and mind, when you read the following:

There is no separate self at all in reality. Me is not the manager, not the controller, not an observer, not awareness; it's just a thought that points to other thoughts — nothing real. There is no self as in zero. There is no such entity 'me' to which life happens. There is no 'I' that owns a story. There is only life moving freely, without a general manager called 'you'.

love
Nona

Thank you No a
Sounds true. At first on an intellectual, surface level. But the more I sit with the words there is a feeling that I know this, like it really could bee true. Less emphasis on the body and hard permanent sense of self.Somehow, when I take in the full, overall, meaning, I guess you might call it, there is openess. Subtle, but definetly there.
All I can say is, its for sure a felt sense going on. Nothing dazzling like fireworks, but subtle. This I've felt before.

How does a thought point to another thought? Up to that point there is a smooth acceptance. When I investigate "me" as a thought pointing to other thoughts it feels like a bump in the road. The mind gets involved and I want to figure out the mechanics of how that happens.
I'm trying to stay with genuine moment to moment impressions from the body/mind, per the instructions, and not from something I've read or heard.

Just reading the words slowly and letting them wash over the "hereness" seems to bring up a spaciousness on a visual/felt sense. No big bang, but for sure a diminishing of the subject/object. I notice that I seem to be giving a lot of creedence to feeling, as in body and visual perception.

" There is just life moving freely." I feel "butterflies " in the stomach.

Hi Satya,

The mind gets involved and I want to figure out the mechanics of how that happens.

Yes. The intellect pushes in as if it were even possible to figure this out mentally. Since intellect, mind, creates the illusion in the first place, mind will never understand it. If only it could, we would all have seen through the illusion ages ago!

I notice that I seem to be giving a lot of creedence to feeling, as in body and visual perception.

Good. Sensation-prior-to-thought, through the five senses, is the closest we get to a world outside of thought. And the most honest. As soon as a story (i.e., description or explanation) is overlaid on sensation, the mind has hijacked the stimulus, judged and labeled it.

How does a thought point to another thought? Up to that point there is a smooth acceptance. When I investigate "me" as a thought pointing to other thoughts it feels like a bump in the road.

Okay, let's backtrack a bit.
Words are labels; to the mind (which operates in concepts) they indicate something about an object, but they are not themselves the object. For example the label "chair". The label itself is a thought, a concept; you can't sit on it or stand on it to reach a high place. The object can be sat or stood upon; it is not a thought.
So let's take the thought "chair". What does the thought "chair" point to? It points to an object which is usually sat upon.
Look around the room. Check the labels, the thoughts, that mind applies to the objects that are seen. Table, chair, walls, floor, computer. If I ask you to look for any of these, you can identify what those labels point to. Table points to this piece of furniture; computer points to that machine.
What does "self, I, me" point to? Look around the room and see if you can locate a self, an I, a me. If you can, please describe it fully and clearly including its location, size, colour, shape, volume, function(s).

" There is just life moving freely." I feel "butterflies " in the stomach.

Ask the butterflies, "are you a sensation of recognising truth? or maybe a sensation of uncertainty?"
What would Life be like without a "you"?

love
Nona

Hello Nona,
Thanks for making contact. I feel excitement and possibility of opening up since beginning this process together. Is process a good way of describing what we are doing?

I notice that I seem to be giving a lot of creedence to feeling, as in body and visual perception.

Good. Sensation-prior-to-thought, through the five senses, is the closest we get to a world outside of thought.

I'm hearing that is valid information to report: sensations that arise in response to stimuli, ie- a question, something being read ?

What does "self, I, me" point to? Look around the room and see if you can locate a self, an I, a me. If you can, please describe it fully and clearly including its location, size, colour, shape, volume, function(s).

Something larger says I can't find a self, but the conditioned part that isn't convinced says, sure, I see the self in the body, as rediculous as that sounds. There seems to be something on this side of reality looking out at everything else: the computer, the lamp, my fingers touching the keys...and on and on...The mind commentating?
What is this division that seems to create distance from everything else? Something knows it is not real.

Ready and willing

Satya

Hi Satya,

Something larger says I can't find a self, but the conditioned part that isn't convinced says, sure, I see the self in the body

Good. Where in the body do you see a self? And when you write "I see the self", do you mean with the eyes? Do you see the self with vision?
If yes, please describe this self fully and clearly. If no, what is meant by your words "I see the self"?

There seems to be something on this side of reality looking out at everything else: the computer, the lamp, my fingers touching the keys...and on and on...

Where are the boundaries of reality? Please describe their location fully and clearly. What are the sides? "This" side and some other side?
Is it possible to see into, through or past reality?

The mind commentating?

You tell me! Are you able to separate the story mind tells about what's happening—the commentary—from what's actually happening?

What is this division that seems to create distance from everything else? Something knows it is not real.

You tell me! IS there a division? If so, what is it? Describe it fully and clearly.

love
Nona

Hi Nona,
These are very good questions, I have to make a disclaimer from the very beginning. i dont feel very invested in the answers i give, but if this is part of the process then i am ready to look.

Good. Where in the body do you see a self? And when you write "I see the self",

The mind has created a reality where someting is looking out from the eyes and looking down and sees a chest with arms and legs and a belly and anything else in the visual field that makes up a person. Somehow i have come to believe that this isa "ME". In addition to the visual aspect, there appears to be sensations located in the body that somehow has been designated as me.

Where are the boundaries of reality? Please describe their location fully and clearly. What are the sides? "This" side and some other side?
Is it possible to see into, through or past reality?

There are no boundaries, only my, whatever it is, conditioning, i guess, that creates the boundaries. They are beliefs, strogly held beliefs taken for granted and accepted on a casual basis. Concepts like inside and outside of my body have been long standing. Truth is, I just dont know.

You tell me! Are you able to separate the story mind tells about what's happening—the commentary—from what's actually happening?

Sure, when I am alone or with people who support this kind of thinking. Not just that, that I need people to dictate my reality. It seems to take work to stand as the truth. I am open and ready to be the "real deal" as I already am anyway and couldn't be any other, but there seems to be something holding me back from consciously stepping forward. Maybe it goes back to our initial conversation. The goals.

You tell me! IS there a division? If so, what is it? Describe it fully and clearly.

There is no division.

Good Morning Nona,
After reading my last post, I thought some clarification might be in order with regards to this:

I have to make a disclaimer from the very beginning. i dont feel very invested in the answers i give, but if this is part of the process then i am ready to look.

What I mean by that is, the larger part of me knows/believes that there is no self, but something here isn't fully convinced. So, when I answer the questions you offer, I do so with as much honesty as possible. In an attempt to dig up as much doubt from beneath the surface as possible. I don't want to kid myself. So, this is sort of where I am. I can't say a definitive YES to no-self, but if I were to give some kind of surface response, I would say YES, it is easily seen. I guess I am looking for a sense of complete certainty. I dont mean some special BOOM ! But a real intuitive,- beyond a shadow of a doubt-knowing. Is that asking for something that may not happen? Or too much waiting involved in that?
With lovingkindness

Satya

Hi Satya,

the larger part of me knows/believes that there is no self, but something here isn't fully convinced.

We are not here to convince anyone of anything, especially of no self. What we are here to do is to Point to where, if you look, you might observe there is no separate entity self at all. When you Experience no self, you will not need to Believe it; it will be just another fact of life.

The mind has created a reality where someting is looking out from the eyes and looking down and sees a chest with arms and legs and a belly and anything else in the visual field that makes up a person. Somehow i have come to believe that this is a "ME".

Something is looking out from the eyes — Is this something the "self"? Can an optometrist or brain surgeon locate this something?

In addition to the visual aspect, there appears to be sensations located in the body that somehow has been designated as me.

So which is it? Is me the something in the head looking out two windows? Or is it a collection of sensations?
How does a collection of sensations get designated "me"? Is that different from a collection of thoughts referring to another thought?

There are no boundaries, only my, whatever it is, conditioning, i guess, that creates the boundaries. They are beliefs, strogly held beliefs taken for granted and accepted on a casual basis. Concepts like inside and outside of my body have been long standing. Truth is, I just dont know.

GOOD!! Realising you have taken concepts for granted but just don't know is an important step in this process. So now I'm asking you to Look, to Observe with all the senses, to find what you can know.

Right here right now I am experiencing the following sensations: in seeing, a bright area of various colors; in hearing, a tapping and a drawn-out sound; in smelling, a salty odor; in taste, a slightly oily flavour; and in touch, pressure here and there.
This is my direct experience: sight, sound, smell, taste, touch. There are sensations, but they carry no meaning in and of themselves.
Prior to thought about the sensations, there is just sensation.

THEN mind begins describing, explaining. Sensation of seeing is described as presence of computer, bookcases, couch, rug, chair. Sensation of hearing is explained as sound of rain, car, keyboard. Sensation of smell is described as scent of soup cooking. Sensation of taste is explained as having consumed a cup of broth. Sensation of pressure is explained as sitting in a chair, typing on a keyboard.

Conditioning doesn't create boundaries; it merely describes them as if they exist.
Close your eyes, and get still. With eyes closed, and without relying on memory, is there a boundary of "you"? Is there a boundary of body? Can you locate, through sensation alone, the place where skin and clothing meet? Where skin, clothing, and chair meet? Can you locate the boundaries of skin, clothing, chair, without referring to sight or memory? Check it!

This is also how self gets described. It doesn't exist as an entity; but it is referred to again and again as if it were real. "See the reflection in the mirror?" the child is asked. "That is You." "Who made this mess? Did You make it?"
Today as you go about your day, notice how often you assume there is an actual entity "you". Each time you notice, observe with all the senses: is there an actual entity "you" present? At all?

love
Nona