The Gate

Hi
I was wondering if someone might help me this
Thanks
Robert

Hi Robert,

I am willing to help, if you would like.

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark
That would be great
I am ready
Thanks
Robert

Hi Robert,

First here are a few ground rules.

1. You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!" If you can't for some reason, just let me know.
2. I am not your teacher; all I can do is point. You look, until clear seeing happens.
3. In general, I will ask questions; you take time to look deeply and honestly, then respond.
4. Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.
5. Responses are best from your direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers. Stream-of-consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
6. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
7. Please learn to use the quote function; this is invaluable in referring to things that have been written in previous posts. See these instructions
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If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too. Please take a look at that.

If you could confirm you have seen all the above and would still like me to be your guide - then we'll begin.

Cheers

Mark

...by the way, welcome to the forum!

Hi Mark
have seen all of the above and agree
Thanks
Robert

Hi Robert

That's good. So please begin by considering carefully, then telling me:

1. What brings you here? (put whatever you feel is relevant here)
2. What are your expectations for this process?
3. What do you expect liberation to be like? (How will it feel, how will it look, what changes do you expect, if any?)
and finally
4. Tell me what you find when looking for 'myself', Robert?

There is no trick question. Just take your time and bring up whatever you honestly feel, majoring on 'now experience' rather than what you may have read, thought intellectually, or been told.

Finally a couple of practical points:

a) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom left of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.
b) The site can have a nasty habit of logging you out in the middle of writing a reply, which can mean losing what you wrote. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark
I will try to keep my answers on point. As I contemplate your questions it seems like one big story. I have Thirty five years of searching. Born again experience at 21, then went onto Avatar, Sedona, Release Technique, meditation, countless courses, countless books, videos, alan watts, mooji, adyashanti, law of attraction whatever. I feel I have done everything I can do and still living the truth of who I am eludes me. I am so done. I have more trouble now than I have ever had and that's not easy to do. Where has all this gotten me. Total destruction of mind body life. My life isn't working and I know less than when I started.

1. When I started out all I wanted was the truth. I am back where I started. That is all I want.
2. All my expectations have done me no good. I am willing to leave them all.
If I had one it would be free from this mental torment.
3. I don't know anymore. Maybe peace, maybe some joy, I would hope for harmony with life.
4. overwhelming sadness - what a waste
I think that's it
Robert

Hi Robert

Thanks for that. I hear a lot of disappointment, frustration, sadness, mental anguish, hopes unfulfilled. And a desire for the truth.

Firstly, you write of:-

Total destruction of mind body life. My life isn't working

Strong words. Is there anything you want to expand on there? Total destruction? How specifically do you see your life as not working?

Secondly, you write:-

I feel I have done everything I can do and still....

Please look and feel now: who is there, doing anything, doing everything he can do, making efforts? How do you know that there is a separate entity there with the volition to do anything? Take time and answer as you find.

Thirdly, you mention, in answer to my question about what you expect liberation to be like:-

I would hope for harmony with life.

Can you be more specific about that? What would harmony with life look/feel like? How do you know that you are not in harmony with life right now? Is there a Robert there who is separate from, or at odds with, life? If so, please describe the experience of this.

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark
How is life not working? Understanding the correlation between thoughts desires ideas actions and the corresponding experiences I am having. Finally after many years of struggling I was able to enjoy some great success only to have it all disappear very quickly and leave me in a place worse off then when I started. Every path or attempt over the past 4 years has been met with failure and disappointment like all doors have been shut in my face. All this has left me feeling trapped with no energy and no enthusiasm.
So my dilemma. If I am 100 percent responsible for my experience of life why would I cause myself such misery. So the search goes on. I must be missing something, doing something wrong or not doing something right.
Life should work. Life should provide. Life should be able to take care of itself.
These seem to be thoughts that haunt me.

Whenever I look for the I he cannot be found. There is just a thought. Even my previous writings, when I look for the I in the story and those thoughts - he is not there. The seems to be just black space.
So I don't know who does or doesn't do the things I am doing but I wish he would stop it and do something more productive.

Harmony with life.
Basic human needs are met. No sense of struggle or continually trying to get. A sense of purpose, relief.

How do you know that you are not in harmony with life right now? Is there a Robert there who is separate from, or at odds with, life?

Because I would not be massively in debt on the verge of losing everything with no idea what to do next. If that's harmony I missed the memo.
I can't find a Robert but there is a the thought I can't believe that after all this time all this work all this searching, learning, releasing - this is what i am experiencing. Aargh!

Thanks for your time
Robert

Hi Robert,

Thanks for that. Many challenges (...which may well be here to accompany liberation/clear seeing).

You capture the process well when you write:-

So my dilemma. If I am 100 percent responsible for my experience of life why would I cause myself such misery. So the search goes on.

Whether to take ownership of our experience of life, or to see that life is just doing itself? Yes, the dilemming, putting off coming down one way or the other, can be a way of delaying seeing, and so the 'search' continues. Let's look at this.

The two conflicting themes seem to keep coming up:-

a) you acknowledge that

Whenever I look for the I he cannot be found

and

I can't find a Robert

but on the other hand...

b) what am I doing wrong/ why is life throwing all this hard stuff at me?

I don't know who does or doesn't do the things I am doing but I wish he would stop it

and

after all this time all this work all this searching, learning, releasing - this is what i am experiencing. Aargh!

Now please ponder, take your time, and try to answer the following questions really specifically:-

1. So is Robert disappearing when you are trying to do 'spiritual work' on him, but reappearing to play either villain or victim (swinging between these two) when 'spiritual school' is out? Please tell me whether you think this is a fair summary? Where is Robert? Victim, culprit, absent? Does he move around? If not then what? Please try to describe, bringing anything that comes up (examples, past, imaginations) into the present experience.

2. What I would like you to do now is an exercise: Is it true that I am "massively in debt on the verge of losing everything?" What is your immediate experience on that in the present moment? Please ponder that and see what comes up. Fears? What are they? Where in the body are they felt? Any triggers? Images? Any other emotions? Where are they felt? Any triggers? Images? What is the actual experience now? Then, what is your immediate sense of Robert in this? Where is he? What does he consist of?

3. You headed your thread "looking for some guidance". It is important for you to know whether what you are wanting to find first and foremost is a) relief from all the pain and discord (you mentioned maybe some peace and joy would be nice), or b) the truth at any cost, even if this means debt, losing all, whatever emotions come etc. Which is top of the list?

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark
I will have the answers to these questions tomorrow
My initial responses are not quite finished
There is no question about the answer to question 3.
Truth has always been first and foremost. I am a willing participant to the path I have chosen, but I thought it important to share what's going on in my head. As I see there is no difference between inner and outer.
I was hoping to see, realize the truth of what I am or what I am not and the rest will take care of itself. That's why some third party guidance was requested.
Thanks
Robert

Hi Robert

Thanks for that. I'll wait for your other answers and then we'll take it from there.

Cheers

Mark

Hi Mark
I have put my original answers to your questions below. However they are no longer valid. They are all the story from within the i. Even as I was writing them I was getting the sense it was not altogether true. That's why I didn't immediately send.
But the writing of them seemed to help clarify things and as I looked for the I in my answers, that answer seemed to be no longer true. It was just a thought.

Where am I now. Everything that comes up I am looking to see the i in that thought.
Obviously it cannot be found. I have seen that the feeling of fear, worry or concern (big or small ) are my best friends ( and have been that all along ) because they are just pointing me to a thought that still has the I attached.

Right now my mind seems to have a dilemma with the pain and suffering the belief in this I has caused to others ( and myself ) throughout my life. This stirs feelings of guilt, blame and regret. If there is no i here then who is responsible for all the carnage this I has caused.
I will keep looking
Thanks
Robert




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Hi Robert,

Thanks for that. Many challenges (...which may well be here to accompany liberation/clear seeing)

I believe it is since this seems to be the major theme for the past thirty five years.
I have put myself in situations were I would focus all of energy on "finding the truth" until my situation would become untenable.Then I would say F;;;; this I have to DO Something I can't go on like this. So a part of me stops relying on "god" "spiritual" so then I shift my focus and things on a material level get better sometimes much better. (although that never really seems to happen because I just can't seem to shake that there is more or i am missing something) Then as I question the depth of what I am doing and as in this last case ( kind of subconscious sabotage) ( not intentionally - of course ) I start a downward spiral, doors closing and things not working. this ultimately drives me to be more committed to just looking for the truth. Which seems to make things worse and worse on the material level. I think that right now I don't want to do anything because if it means operating from the perception of "self" or the " i " what's the point.

Now please ponder, take your time, and try to answer the following questions really specifically:-

1. So is Robert disappearing when you are trying to do 'spiritual work' on him, but reappearing to play either villain or victim (swinging between these two) when 'spiritual school' is out? Please tell me whether you think this is a fair summary? Where is Robert? Victim, culprit, absent? Does he move around? If not then what? Please try to describe, bringing anything that comes up (examples, past, imaginations) into the present experience.

I would not say disappearing to do spiritual work. I believe intellectually that the idea of Robert is just that, an idea. This can be seen when I actively look for the I of me.
It does not seem, as of this moment, to be an all pervading perception.

2. What I would like you to do now is an exercise: Is it true that I am "massively in debt on the verge of losing everything?" What is your immediate experience on that in the present moment? Please ponder that and see what comes up. Fears? What are they? Where in the body are they felt? Any triggers? Images? Any other emotions? Where are they felt? Any triggers? Images? What is the actual experience now? Then, what is your immediate sense of Robert in this? Where is he? What does he consist of?

Yes this appears true but it does not feel true. I have released much fear and frustration over the last couple of years. I have always believed that everything happens for a reason and there is always a way. There is however a slight fear and clutching in the stomach that I could be wrong. Then I'm fucked. Which always brings up the question, What am I going to do? What should I do?

Hi Mark
I would to add something that goes with previous for clarification. It relates to the past and memories. A good one. I remember a vacation to Fiji and scuba diving.
As I look for the I, does this just become - the experience of remembering the experience of Fiji?
A bad one. I'll pick an lighter one so I don't sound like a psychopathic bad guy.
Although I have a sense it's all the same. I remember saying mean and hurtful things to someone in anger. Is that the experience of remembering the experience of saying mean and hurtful things ( because of identifying with the I )

Not quite sure on this
Will continue looking
Thanks
Robert