The Gate

Hi,
My name is Cristina and I would really appreciate some guidance in this "searching/no self/truth/who am I" thingy.
I've been alone on this journey for about 4 years, without direct contact to teachers, only books, and somehow it's been enough...until now.

I started reading about a month ago the book "Gateless Gatecrashers" and immediately knew that that's the direction I'm headed next. So, I read the article "Start here" from Ilona's blog and did all the direct looking as best as I could. I thought that nothing happened, but later that day when my boyfriend said that he feels lost, I started laughing uncontrollably without knowing why. It was the strangest thing, to laugh without being able to stop, or to know why; the mind could not explain it. Thoughts came, that explained in different ways, but they were not important...all I felt was a sense of "this is a big big joke....the intense search, the confusion, the immense pain and suffering that I felt...it was all a joke".

Three days of lightness, joy, intense energy in the body, little sleep, almost no food (too much energy, disturbingly much), and uncontrollable laughter(until my head hurt) followed. But after that, like magic, I woke up in the morning with a heavy sense of heaviness (that's how heavy it was), non-stop crying, and a continuous flow of thoughts like "I've lost it" and an unshakable sense of "there's no hope, there's nothing I could do to find out what's the truth". Every time I opened a book on spirituality I started crying and felt a very intense (like I never felt before) pain. After a week of this, I knew that I must do something to distract myself from it because my body could not stand it any more and started feeling worse with each day; even psychologically the pressure was too much. It's been two weeks (of distracting myself, the holidays helped:)), and the intense pain is gone.
It's like I was not allowed to search in the ways I did until that point (especially spiritual autolysys recommended by jed mckenna which I did for a year, every day, from dusk till dawn). Because of the way I searched in the past, in addition to the natural tendency toward knowledge and information that this mind has, a strange mix of doubting everything but at the same time trying to understand mentally what this reality is all about emerged. This resulted in suffering because of the confusion and the sense of inability to do it "myself" and at the same time I felt that I was the only one in control and the more I dedicated myself to it the more chances I will have. I believed that the more I suffered, the more I tried to bend my mind, my sense of everything, it will break at some point. It did it's part (if I look in hindsight) but I'll only limit myself if I grab on to it (not an easy thing to accept after all this time).

And that's why I'm here, to ask for help, for guidance, because the way I did it until know won't work from here on out. And for my part I know that I have to leave all that behind, look directly in the now and not let this mind do it's usual "let's put all the pieces together to get a perfect neat formula that explains this life" dance.
Sorry for the long post and oh, Happy New Year to everybody!:)
Cristina

Hi Cristina.
Do you grok the conceptual nature of your Self ?
Is there anything other than the noticing of current experiencing, that is not just thought ?

vince

Hi Vince,

Do you grok the conceptual nature of your Self ?

I don't know if I understood your first question correctly, but I interpreted it in the lines of: Do I understand (actually more than just understand) that the nature of this Self, of this "me" is purely conceptual?
I've had moments (yesterday for example), that appeared without my permission, so to speak, when this daunted on me, but for some reason I got scared of them, and pushed them away because of their strange, empty texture. It's kind of ironic for someone who apparently wants to find out what's really going on, and claims they would do almost anything for it...to be so afraid. If I, willingly, do inquiry to look directly (right now), a different experience arises; it's lightness, like a relief, not scary at all, it's like time stops and there's only the present experience; but there still is an "I" attached to it somehow. I don't know what to make of this, because the two are so different. So, I guess, the answer is: no, I don't fully understand/see that.

Is there anything other than the noticing of current experiencing, that is not just thought ?

When I asked that question out loud the mind stopped and there was just the present experience. But then, it's like the "I" suit was put on and said "ok, I saw that there was the just experience, now let's write that down". It's like something that's playing tricks on itself, and it's really successful at this.

Morning Cristina.

I got scared of them

OK, this is natural and reasonable. Your fear is trying to protect.
Face it squarely, like you would a big brother and tell it that in this case it is not necessary. Thank it for its' concern and tell it to take a holiday, and that you will be fine.

When I asked that question out loud the mind stopped and there was just the present experience. But then, it's like the "I" suit was put on...

Excellent !

From your introduction, i developed a story that you were primed and very close, and by your reporting of Experiencing that occurred as you considered the questions, the story was validated.
Those two questions (that i asked in my first post) faced you directly at two portals.
The first is the absence of an actual Self, and the second is This IS IT !
In both cases you SAW what was being pointed at. In both cases, conditioned habit kicked in again, ..but you saw it happen. Excellent !
Now, a key focal point here is the RECOGNITION of that old conditioning as it kicks in. It can be recognised by the fact that thoughts ABOUT what is happening take over. Those thoughts elicit other thoughts and WHAM !, we are engulfed in a story.
At the point of RECOGNITION, i want you to laugh. Best of all is a great big belly laugh. A guffaw. The important bit here is that the stomach muscles contract, so if you are in public just an exhale through the nostrils, accompanied by the stomach contraction, will suffice. This floods your system with good hormones that reduce the stress hormone (cortisol) and promote many good effects.

Consider this; Once SEEn it can't be unSEEn.
Conditioning and the flurry of thoughts that accompanies it will quickly follow the SEEing until new neuronal pathways are established in the brain, but this will happen fairly quickly.
Have a look at this video to see HOW it happens;
https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... _Being.mp4

Cristina, is there anything inherent in thought that gives it credibility ?
Are some of your thoughts total rubbish, while other thoughts are useful ?

vince

Hi Vince,

After I read your post I realised what a different experience it is between: when someone who has been through this sort of thing is guiding you and when you do it alone. Both cases have their own benefits, but let me tell you, after being in this sort of thing all by myself for years it sure feels like a relief to see that a copilot appeared in the seat next to me (even if it is just for a limited amount of time). So, thank you for giving your time and energy in this direction; I’m sure I will benefit greatly from this (I know this because I can see that I already have) and I hope you will get something out of it too (I guess if you wouldn’t have you probably would not be here:)).
I watched the tedtalk and it was very interesting, it sure explains a lot. If I look at what life has been like through this mind in the last years (from the perspective of neuroscience) I can see that it changed from something coherent and congruent to a state of being a lot of the time in metacognition where paradox and having 15 different(sometimes contradictory) perspectives at all times was my normality. This leads to seeing through a lot of beliefs but at the same time it can be very confusing and sometimes not so easy to live with. But that’s not important right now.
When I watched the video a question came to mind: is the “I” a thought that is connected to a lot of neurons/circuits? If I pay attention to the stream of thoughts a lot of them have this “I” in them (or different variations of it, “me”, “mine”). And we believe the continuity and the truthfulness of them because they are paired up(rather leached on) with the sense of “I am”? Is that what is going on? Hmmm…
Regarding the conditioned habit, that keeps kicking in, that you mentioned…oh my god, I just realised something! The thoughts that kick in and that make me turn around and not investigate further, are what my mind does best lately: “doubt everything, literally everything, and this includes even the kind-of-seeing that there is no self; don’t buy into that because it’s a trick and you saw what happened in the past when you stopped…you saw that it was fake after all, and it hurt.” (an imagine of a little gremlin came to mind that whispers this king of thoughts in my year every time I get close to something that doesn’t resemble chaos and confusion). Holly macaroni…I’m in shock right now. Of course that everything that’s filtered through this kind of conditioning comes out weird and twisted on the other side. How could I expect something clear and shiny? You don’t get clear and shiny even through a “normal” mind. Freedom, truth (whatever that is…), finding out what this is (by this I mean everything that is right now…an apparent “me”, a cat, a laptop, thoughts, light; reality…) can’t come through the mind, through logic and rationality, through a thought, through 2+2=4; no, whatever insight or realisation I ever had came outside of this, through seeing and knowing. And then the mind comes and interprets what happened, what “I” just realised and calls it it’s own (after it tries to milk the hell out of it). Even this thing that I saw right now, was not even near to something like: “Cristina, because she’s so smart and special, saw that (insert insight here)”. The word ‘arrogance’ comes to mind….
I will get back to you later with the questions you asked, but right now I have to digest/ live/ experience/whatever…what just happened.

Cristina

Hello,

After the initial shock of discovering that I blindly believed a thought that told me not to believe anything (talk about doublethink at its finest) I can see how it "all" comes together (on its own).
It's not rocket-science, it's just obvious...it's believing every thought that appears. I don't know how it works or why it happens this way, but everybody believes what they think.

When I read your question:

Cristina, is there anything inherent in thought that gives it credibility?

I could not come up with an answer. I asked the question over and over again and the only response that came was "wow, that's a good question!" Why do I believe what I think? It's so strange...I can't get my mind wrapped around it. Is "I/this person/Cristina" just a thought that pops up everywhere and is taken for being something true, something real and solid? I will look into it.

This is where the second question comes up:

Are some of your thoughts total rubbish, while other thoughts are useful?

Again, my mind is shut down even on this one. From every angle I look there is a different response. For example, I see a significant difference between a thought that describes something that came in through the senses, a sensation or an emotion, and a thought about an imagined life on another planet. The thought "I have to meet someone at 8 a'clock" is useful and if I believe it then I will be there at 8 and the friend won't have to wait and call to ask where I am (to get a stupid response like: "eh, I did not believe my thought so I did not show up"). But the thought "I will never be happy again" I would like to put in the category of not so useful (or healthy for the body) and it's not even accurate. Who knows if I'll ever be happy again or not? If I look at it in a pure practical manner then I can make a distinction between different types of thoughts, useful ones and not so useful ones. I feel like my mind is all over the place on this one. I will look into it again tomorrow.

One thought that I can look into is the mother of them all, the "I" thought.
The "I" thought promises that it points to something solid, but if you don't take its word for it and actually look, it doesn't deliver. It's amazing and mind boggling that it can't deliver! Another thing that became clear is that "I" did not decide to be born, have 5 fingers and two ears, function the way this apparent I functions, have this range of emotions from which I think I choose which one to feel, there is no "I" that created this moment the way it is, there isn't even an "I" that created this "I". The thought came "yes, but you contribute to the way this moment looks/is by raising or not raising your left arm for example; totally different reality emerges if you lift one arm". But even the raising of the arm..."I" can't take credit for it, "I" did not create a thought that signaled to the arm to be raised. I don't even know if I exist or what I am so how could there be something, a person that takes credit for it if even that same person questions its existence?

It's so funny if you look at it...in one moment there is only experience, only this and no I/person and the next someone asks something and Cri-mode is activated and a person emerges from thin air and walks and talks like a 27-year old girl with existential tendencies:)))). An image came to mind: in the space of this moment a so-called person appears (patched together of thoughts and sensations and emotions and what not), but the "tricky" part is, that even this so-called person functions for most of her day in a questioning everything about everything sort of way...and so, the illusion of seeing through the illusion of self appears; the person believes that she sees through the self (and that's impossible of course) and so the real seeing does not happen very often because of the false seeing (actually because of the thinking about reality, and believing those thoughts, that's mistaken for seeing).
That's what you meant when you talked about conditioning kicking in and recognizing it? Not letting the thoughts about what is going on get in the way of what is going on (even the presence of those thoughts)? In this case the thoughts go sometimes in non-dual, absolute, directions, but that doesn't mean that they are more valuable or even more true, for that matter, than thoughts that are about cookies that I did not buy yesterday but should have because I would like to eat them now (actually the ones that are about the cookies are more pragmatic and practical and influence the sensations that appeared in my stomach now...but so are the ones that talk about truth and how I can/can't get to it, who are very capable of creating pain in the chest area).
It's been a long and consuming day; exhaustion appeared here, so I'll have to stop for today because I'm all over the place(I don't even know how to express what's going on here, how to put it into words...jumping from trying to express it without using "I" because "I" see how ridiculous it is to talk about something that's not there like it is there...but then it appears and so the apparent self has to write using pronouns because it's ridiculous not to use them in that moment). It feels like I'm schizophrenic. So, I'm going to follow your advice, recognize it and laugh....ah, much better.

Cristina

Good Morning Cristina.
Consider experiencing.
Is is possible that, as well as being led up the garden path about the existence of a separate Self, that we have also been duped about experiencing ? Take seeing for example.
Pick an object a couple of meters away from you and look at it. It appears to be at a distance, but tell me, where is the separation point between the see-er and the seen ?
Is it even possible for the seen to exist without a see-er ? ..or the see-er to exist without the seen ?
Could we say that the see-er and the seen are both part of the experiencing called seeing ?
Keep looking at that object and wait for thoughts to exhaust themselves with their commentary ABOUT ...
When labels and description evaporate and pure seeing ensues, is there any separation ? ..or is that object you ?

vince

Hi Vince,

I payed as much attention to experience today as I could. I started with seeing, but then I looked at hearing, toughing, and body sensations too (although seeing is somehow different from the others; I guess it's because of the obvious space between things that separate them from each other; a me in a body that's separate from the couch, for example). While doing this I noticed 2 different states/perspectives:
1. the "normal" one where there is a body with eyes who see an object at a certain distance from itself (most of the time this is my living reality);
2. there is a big space (so to speak) where everything arises in: the lamp, the sound, the sensation, the hands on the keyboard, etc; even the thoughts. From this perception there are no separate things because the focus isn't on any one of them so it all seems to blend in together. If I focus on one of them it's like a zoom in, the others fade away, but the texture of the experience doesn't change much (what I mean by this is that there has not appeared a "me" in a body here separate from the vase).
There is such a big shift between the two, and more important, I don't know what exactly I define as the see-er (the body or this awareness/space) that at first I did not know how to answer your questions. It's like I could take 2 different routes (a recurring theme apparently) but with the same endpoint. So I'll go directly to the last question first.

When labels and description evaporate and pure seeing ensues, is there any separation ? ..or is that object you ?

When the thoughts (labels and descriptions) about this experience evaporate, there is this space in which everything appears in. That space is definitely not a self in a body. But it is like an aware space. I can't say that the object is me; probably because I still define a "me" as a self, a person. More close to what it feels like would be to say that it all appears in this. But even this perceiving is not finite or final because it changes (for brief moments) to: this is what it is, even the so called space in which everything appears in is not separate from the "things" that appear in it. It's hard to describe because this shifts in perception are very subtle and don't last.

To the question:

Could we say that the see-er and the seen are both part of the experiencing called seeing ?

I don't know how to answer to this one yet. I will stay with it though and see what happens.

I did not respond to the other questions because I saw them leading to the last one and it would feel like I have to shift again in the "old point of view" (a me in a body in space) only to arrive at where I am right now. If you still want me answer them, I will.
What I noticed is that it has been easier and easier to "leave" the "normal", old perspective, so thank you for that.

Cristina

Hello,

At first I did not really know/see what you meant with the question:

Could we say that the see-er and the seen are both part of the experiencing called seeing ?

but after staying with it today I feel I'm one inch away to grok this, so to speak. It's like a glimpse I get, but whose "life" is a short, fragile one. What I've come to realize is that the see-er the seeing and the seen are not separate from each other; they are one experience. I looked elsewhere too, at hearing, breathing, typing for example....the same. When looking at something to see more than what has been taken to be true (the "normal" living experience of reality), if I rely to much on language and words I get lost in them and instead of going past them I get stuck. But if I stop everything, even for one moment and just look, really look, then a different perception appears, a shift happens; what a difference it makes not to cling on to labels and descriptions and analysis (even though words can set the direction they can't be the destination too).

Cristina

Cristina, This IS IT !
But this is not accurate.
There is no IT. For there to be an IT there has to be a not IT. Is that possible ?
THISing, is more accurate.
..or even ISing.

Do you grok this ?

vince

No, there can't be 'a not IT', a 'not this'; there's only this and nothing else. Even the thinking of else-ness is "in" This.
There's seeing this/knowing it, and then the THISing takes a different "form" where there's an apparent self that's looking at experience and what not (coming to this forum, asking for guidance to look for a self expecting not to find one; oh, the irony of it). But even that is This.

Words come and try to stay to make up a thread of thoughts that make sense...but they don't stay. There were so many questions before that just won't stay here right now. A desire to hold on to this arises, to understand it fully with every thought and feeling...but that doesn't stay either. Don't know what shape This will take next (not that it's something solid...it moves), but what is right now is and that's that. Don't know what to say right now...I'll come back later to write more but now I can't.

Thank you,
Cristina

i liked that reply.
Cristina, answer these questions please. From Experiencing.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

vince

Hi Vince,

I saw your post earlier , wanted to answer the questions, but had to go to the dentist and then do some errands. So, I postponed it to the afternoon.
The day went like this: oscillated between no self (it was more than no self; clear seeing I could call it) and being Cristina who had to be places and do stuff. Recognition appeared easily many times, laughter came naturally after, seeing clearly 'This is IT'...then personhood again, recognition again, and so on...until seeing clearly came harder and harder. Came home, ate something, sat on the computer to write to you (that was 2 hours ago)...aaaand just personhood now (and for the last hours). All day long thoughts about how it all works appeared trying to tie it all together and putting a nice, big red bow on it (examples: 'there's this body and mind that function the way they function so that's why blah blah is the way it is?', 'when seeing happens, what goes on? is it just the brain who sees? is that what happened?', etc) . And even in the midst of not believing those thoughts, of seeing them for what they are, they kept reappearing, over and over again. I said that I don't know what form the THISing will take...it took the form of the old conditioning (I'm laughing right now because it's like a good tragicomedy).
I understand now what you wrote in the second post: "once SEEn, it can't be unSEEn" because I don't buy this 'oh no, "I" lost it; was it even real? How do "I" go back?' thing. But it still is here even if it's not completely believed...it's like a strong pull in one direction.
So, I don't want to answer right now the questions you asked because it would be something "counterproductive" and from memory.
What I want to ask you is if this is common and what kind of pointers usually 'work'? Because there isn't buying into this personhood thing, but it's still here and doesn't want to leave (laughing again). Are some stories of how things work welcomed at this point, so that the mind will shut up about this until conditioning follows the seeing? When "it" is seen it's so obvious and light and easy. And seeing came so easily today at the beginning, it was like child's play, like seeing something that was there all along. And it feels like an impossible mission now. But, who knows what will follow...

I guess it's night now in Australia so, good night.
Cristina

just personhood now

When that is occurring, is it not THIS ? (i recognize that you might not be noticing it, or appreciating it at that time)
There is extensive brain re-wiring happening at the moment (and will continue - probably forever)
The years of conditioning don't undo instantly, though they do get a good shakeup. Once a new synaptic connection is made and becomes part of a pathway, it will be strengthened every time it is used. Remember to laugh !

So, I don't want to answer right now the questions you asked

Ok, no problems

because it would be something "counterproductive" and from memory.

hmm, i don't get this. Can you elucidate please ?

What I want to ask you is if this is common

Every body is unique. Best not to compare 'yourself' with others just yet. (and you get over that too)

Because there isn't buying into this personhood thing,

So you had a belief about a Self (personhood ?) then you had a belief that you (who ?) was free of that.
How many beliefs do you now have ? (regarding this)

conditioning follows the seeing

Yes ! Beautifully put.
You will find (have found) that freedom from the story of Cristina has extensive repercussions, one of which is an uncovering of, a revealing of, a wise perspective. An amazement (here) is that answers become apparent. You know everything that you need to know.

love

vince

Hi Vince,

After yesterday, this is what I can write (I don't know if it's irrelevant and if I'm actually looking in the wrong direction, paying attention to the wrong things, but this is what I can say right now):
What happened in the morning was clear seeing (maybe it was a small seeing, but nevertheless:)). I don't know what clear seeing means for someone else but in this case it was like seeing the only thing that is true, the thing that is happening in every second, the only thing that really is, but for some reason is not how reality was experienced before (that being part of the only thing there is also). Even though I know that what happens in any other time that is not right now is not that relevant, I have a memory of it (it's more than that; I can't define it but it's more than that) and know that it was something.

Then, after some time, thoughts started to appear, more and more thoughts. There was not paying attention to them at first, but then, slowly, one by one "I" started believing them. When I wrote to you yesterday I said that I did not believe them; but what I can say now is that I started believing them and in the same time I knew that they were not true. It was like a pull towards experiencing reality from on old point of view. Then a battle between 2 kind of thoughts appeared: the ones that were there from the "beginning" and the ones who were based on the memory of the seeing. But still all this was felt like not being personal, not happening to a me. There was a "me" present but there wasn't at the same time (sorry for the ambiguity but it's really hard to explain). Later in the evening I started feeling very sick and experience physical pain (have some health problems lately); there was no more energy for thoughts to battle it out and so, the old ones remained and the new ones left. And then the ambiguity disappeared too and there it was the "I" in full-time mode. Now, the body is very tired, is not feeling very peachy and so it's like there's no energy to look with thought (which is the way this mind is accustomed to do) but can't look, really look, in the now either (it's weird that it feels like there's no energy for that either) and all it wants to do is to be left alone to heal. And even though there is no energy for direct looking, there is for a feeling of some sort of sadness, or sorrow and for tears. I looked for the place from where they appear (a thought or a belief or something) but could not find anything. So, I let them be there because I can't find an off button and trying to go at war with them is too tiring.

What I realized is that there are two ways to look: with thought that goes in search for the self (and doesn't find one eventually) and by telling the mind to shut up so that "one" can really look in the present moment. Wha! This is exactly what you wrote in your first post, right? Those two questions that lead to two portals (the absence of self and this is it).
What did the final 'trick' in this case was the second one, where no thoughts were preset and just looking in the right now is all that is happening.

Another thing I noticed was that there are two types of recognition of the old conditioning when it appears. One is like when you wake up from a daydream, and there's a clear shift between the two experiences (the daydream and the reality), and one is when you know you that you are daydreaming but you don't snap back to the present moment, you just sit there and continue to dream about daydreaming.
I know that I have to do the "work" alone and look; but I wrote the above because: it is what happened (what I noticed, don't know for sure) that lead to how the experience of reality is right now and second, maybe it will show you where I am right now and what the next step is (maybe it will be to shake me and tell me to stop all this thinking about thinking and to stop making it harder than it has to be; I'm not doing it on purpose, or because it's "fun", I promise).

When that is occurring, is it not THIS ? (i recognize that you might not be noticing it, or appreciating it at that time)

(regarding personhood)
Theoretically I know that. And yesterday afternoon when I wrote the post where I said that it's just personhood, there was a part that knew that that also is THIS. That's the ambiguity I was talking about earlier. But when I started feeling more and more sick, that part went away. If I look right now, there are slight glimpses of this but they are slippery and don't stay.

Cristina wrote:
because it would be something "counterproductive" and from memory.
hmm, i don't get this. Can you elucidate please ?

If I would have replied yesterday morning (to the 6 questions) the answers would've been very different from yesterday evening. But probably I would have cheated myself and answered them from memory (of the clear seeing) because of the desire to hang on to it. And plus, even if I would have replied honestly, the answers would probably have been very confused and twisted because of the inability of the mind to put it all together, but that doesn't mean that it would not have tried.

So you had a belief about a Self (personhood ?) then you had a belief that you (who ?) was free of that.
How many beliefs do you now have ? (regarding this)

Yes, I had a belief about a self, then that belief flew out the window when "I" saw that 'this is it!'. A period of experiencing this followed, but then conditioning happened and a belief appeared (very subtly at first) that said 'there is no self' here. This new belief was at war with the experience of reality from the point of view of a person. If I look now, I have no idea what beliefs are there anymore and the feeling of "I don't care for beliefs right now" keeps reappearing (even though I know that they can be very sneaky and wear an invisibility coat most of the time; and because I don't see them that doesn't mean that they don't exist or don't do their job). The question about who was free of the self is a very good one. I will look into it.

I'm sorry for the long (and possibly filled with unimportant stuff) post. After I wrote and saw the size of it and what it actually contains, I wanted to cut it down to leave only what's important, but probably because I'm very tired I feel that everything I wrote is valuable information (after I wrote the last sentence I laughed for 5 minutes; which actually made me feel so much better; you were right about laughing and the importance of it).
A sense of this (of this thread and guiding) being very important is present,and was from the beginning. It's not that it's important for "me" or that "I" will get something out of this, it's just an unmistakable feeling of 'this is very important'. So, thank you again for doing this.

All the best,
Cristina