The Gate

Here is Junjo, my sort of spiritual name…
I have been practicing Buddhism for quite a while, I see through the self but still have questions concerning Direct Experience, bodily sensations (the senses) and questions about choice, responsibility and morality. Do 'I' really see through the illusion of self? How come then it's so difficult to integrate it in day to day life?
Perhaps you can help me with a push right into the flow, this last little or large, or nothing-what-so-ever-thrust into awaring?
I read a large deal of the LU book, some Jed McKenna and most of the LU quotes.
Also read the must reads on this site and will make honest posts.
English is not my mother language (it's Dutch) but I cope quite well in it.

I would be so grateful if you can help me out here!
And I can be patient i'll wait until you have time for me, no problem…

Love
Junjo

Hi junjo,

Thank you for message and welcome to forum.

How can I help you? What are you looking for? What do you expect from this conversation?
Write with full honesty..

Are you outside the flow?


Sending love.

Hi Ilona,

What a nice question?
'Are you outside the flow? '
In fact I'm in the flow.

I'll write you a DM with full honesty.

Sending love

No you are not in the flow. There is flow of life, flow of experienced, is there an I at the receiving end? Is there a gap between life flow and separate self? Is life happening to body, to mind, or as body, as mind, as this?

Looking forward to you answers.

Hi Ilona,

There is flow of life, flow of experienced, is there an I at the receiving end? Is there a gap between life flow and separate self? Is life happening to body, to mind, or as body, as mind, as this?

In the way that there is no I, I cannot be in a flow, is this what you refer to.
There is just flow. There's no gap between life flow and separate self. I saw this, I experienced this.
Can you help me to look gain. To experience this to look?
It's as if I can't get to DE anymore. Of course that is a thought. Maybe it's resistance. I stay with the resistance. But still stuck or something? There is fear? Fear to experience the no-gap? Which was beautiful, simply ordinary, but also overwhelming?
After I experienced no-self, just being, just awaring and a total unity of nothing or everything, thoughts came up about morality. If everything is good as it is. What about suffering? What about terrible things happening. What about feeling, sensing, feeling my skin? With what I know now, how can I be?
In direct experience I felt no outer skin boundary anymore. I experienced a sort of inter being without anything or anybody in control. Just life doing its thing through whatever this is that's writing you. If I do the body scan right now I feel this boundlessness, not the concentrated awareness of skin, or limps anymore. When I pinch myself I still experience pain, but the body scan completely changed.
Also thoughts came up about ethics, about learning, about doing, about making choices and I completely got lost between the conventional I and the no-gap. I sat on my couch for several days, even more than a week, and ate chocolates and nothing mattered anymore.

I hope you understand what I'm saying?

Thank you for your answers Ilona, I'm really very thankful,
Junjo

Hi junjo,
Thank you for answer. Of you get stuck, write, don't just sit and eat chocolate ( nice! ) writing gets mind focused, writing gets thoughts clarified, so just write what is there out of the head into paper, so you can look at it.

Ok, let's look what's there.

If everything is good as it is. What about suffering?

If everything is good? No, good, bad are projections, judgements, life is not good or bad, it simply IS.
So everything is as it is. Including suffering. Suffering is thoughts about stuff that is not happening, judging thoughts with other thoughts, feeding the feedback loop. This is a mechanism. This can be explored and observed, when it's clear how it works, it's no longer something that should not be happening.

No self is not an experience, some experience happened, it passed, stop trying to get back there, because you are missing the point, it's right here, right now. No self is not some heightened state, it's pattern recognition. Notice what is here right now, notice noticing. What is that which is noticing?

Is it body that experiences or body too is experienced? How is body experienced?

Sending love.

Hi Ilona,

Thank you for your very clear answers!

Is it body that experiences or body too is experienced? How is body experienced?

How can I check this? What I feel/experience, what is, is body is experienced.
That's the strangest thing and that's what I mean with doing the body scan right now. Body is not there and it's there. It's in a way transparent, luminous, not happening, but still it's there, the beating heart the intestines… ? It's body with skin and it's also nothing and everything. I don't mean some kind of heightened state. But it confuses. I'm not intelligent enough to understand. And es this is a thought and a judgement! My expectation is to be clever enough to understand

This is a mechanism. This can be explored and observed, when it's clear how it works, it's no longer something that should not be happening.

Notice what is here right now, notice noticing. What is that which is noticing?

This is difficult to explain what is noticing is noticing but that's not an I but an all and a nothing. Okay now I'm looking again.

And I'm writing. Helpful remark.

Love
Junjo

Great!
With closed eyes sit for 10 minutes and notice the body. Can you tell without referring to memory, how far away is head to feet? Is there inside the skin and outside? Touch and hold hands together, experience sensations, where does one hand end and another start?

Open eyes and include vision sense. Can you see inside body? Can you see face? Explore with fresh eyes.
Describe what you noticed.

Can description of experience replace experience? What is different between description and actual experience?

Sending love.

Hello Ilona,

Sorry that my latest post is from a couple of days ago. I have been exceptionally busy and this will continue more or less until Monday morning.

With closed eyes sit for 10 minutes and notice the body. Can you tell without referring to memory, how far away is head to feet? Is there inside the skin and outside? Touch and hold hands together, experience sensations, where does one hand end and another start?

I cannot tell the distance between head and feet. In fact I don't sense any distance at all? With memory I know there must be. Pure sensing there is none. There is the sense of feet and thesense of head but they are together in empty space. No inside the skin and no outside. The sense of skin sort of vanishes.
Touching and holding hands is nice, and warm and I can feel softness and harder bone form.. There are two hands but still there is no way of telling where one ends and the other one starts. As if they are seperate but also one?

Open eyes and include vision sense. Can you see inside body? Can you see face? Explore with fresh eyes.
Describe what you noticed.

No I can't see inside the body nor face, I can see a tip of my nose. With some effort, also a bit of my mouth.

I want to take more time for this exercise please, can I?

Love
Junjo

Hi junjo,

Thank you for answer.
It's interesting, isn't it, how the boundary of body disappears when thought, memory is not involved.
Have a look also, is there a line between here and there? A line between me and the world?
Where is hearing sounds happening?
Where is seeing colour of sky happening?
Where is touch happening?
Does space of awareness have borders?

No worries about not answering everyday, write when you are ready.

Sending love.

Hello Ilona,

Space wareness.
Wow! No it has no borders!
My body is shivering now strange hapiness.
Coming back to you soon.
Wish you a nice day for now!

xx
Dorine

How is it going, Dorine?

Hi Ilona,

I haven't been here for a long time.
I took my time. Felt resistance to answer because I'm scared not to get the point, that I'm not catching it and everybody else does. And I know this is just a thought. But still it obstructed me.
Also busy times.
Perhaps the procrastination had it's purpose to ripen awareness within me, as Davi Whyte states in a lovely text.

It's interesting, isn't it, how the boundary of body disappears when thought, memory is not involved.

Yes! As soon as I close my eyes these boundaries are gone and this seems to calm me immediately.

Have a look also, is there a line between here and there?

No line between here and there when I close my eyes.. But when I open them I can see difference between here and there.

A line between me and the world?

With closed eyes I sort of merge with the world instantly.

Where is hearing sounds happening?

With closed eyes hearing sounds is everywhere. Beautiful, real dolby surround :)
But I know hearing sounds happens in the ear. Without good functioning there you cannot hear sounds even with eyes closed.

Where is seeing colour of sky happening?

Can't say, don't know. Nothing to point to, but I know it's through the eyes that I can see. If they don't function I'll be blind and see nothing.

Where is touch happening?

With closed eyes touch is happening nowhere and everywhere!
I don't feel a sort of boundary or spot like: there it is! There's the touch!
Touching feels much larger than it actually is?

Does space of awareness have borders?

Absolutely not! No borders. This is so strange I cannot understand.
Non-dualistic experience in a dual world is confusing me. Don't know what to think anymore.
When I close my eyes and just experience there is calmness, it feels okay, more than okay even. Like I'm naturally a part of life much larger than me, really boundless huge. I also don't mind the not knowing part it feels peaceful and huge. As if there's nobody home like a total merging.
But when I open my eyes again there's immediately this person, with a name, doing things, thinking stuff. Thinking thoughts that just happen but choose me/this?
But this 'I' has to eat, pay the rent is small and a bit fatter after Christmas?

This contradiction or paradox hinders me. Obstructs me. I don't understand anymore.
Also the boundaries of knowing, understanding and searching fell away…

For now I wish you such a happy New Year as possible!
And thanks so much for your patience.

Love
Junjo dorine

Beautiful answers.

But when I open my eyes again there's immediately this person, with a name, doing things, thinking stuff.

Examine this closer: when eyes open, do they see a person? Do they see a name tag? Do eyes see the doer? The thinker? Or it's all just a story in the head, coming from memory?

Imagine you don't remember anything at all, you wake up with amnesia and open eyes for the first time. What eyes see?

Sending love.

Hi Ilona,

I don't know what eyes see. I feel kind of eerie when I do that my legs and arms start to tingle. I can only do this for a short moment, then thought and memory comes back.
But in the moment things look more beautiful and very intersting!

Thank you so much for your questions! They are beautiful as well :)
Junjo dorine