The Gate

Hello,
A little tickle of delight/fear went thru me as i saw my name had changed to green but here we go. I would like to request Devina as a guide, but if she is too busy will be grateful for anyone, really! stumbled here thru a facebook friend's posting of one of the quotes. started reading Gateless Gatecrashers pdf on friday and can only say THANK YOU!!!
`cheryl

after looking at other requests for guidance, felt that perhaps i should offer a bit more information? after studying buddhism for a while off and on with a partner, something was still missing. the idea of 'maybe you'll get it this lifetime, maybe not' didn't seem quite right, kind of long-suffering when the idea was to release the suffering and help others to do the same! anyways, stumbled on a post by mooji on relationships and was like aha! in a big big way! As i watched more clips i really didn't even understand what was being said but was compelled to watch moreand then found out it was something called advaita vedanta. then came eckhart tolle with a more secular approach which was very helpful but then something in the heart drove me back to mooji and as deeper understanding came, wonderful things, scary things (hahaha!) began to unfold.

and now, right now there is a feeling of needing help to see thru where cheryl remains attached and identified and whatever else needs to be uncovered and seen thru! <3
thank you again, really ..

so this current searching (by this i mean searching knowingly) has been going on for about 1.5 years.

Hello Cheryl! I'll be happy to help guide. First, some preliminaries:

Please read the introduction and disclaimer at
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Learn how to use the quote function:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Set aside other spiritual books and teachers for now. The best guide is your own experience.

Do you agree to post at least once a day? I will also check in at least once per day.

Do you agree to look honestly and offer heartfelt responses? (I'm not looking for "right" answers, I just want to hear what is being explored.)

What are your expectations for seeing no self?

What wonderful scary things have unfolded so far? :)

What comes up when I say "There is no Cheryl?"

Take your time and post as much or as little as is practical at one time.

Looking forward to working with you!
Love,
D.

Hi D.,
*I’ve read the info in the two links and agree to set aside other spiritual books and teachers for now and I understand that there needs to be a focus on my own experience.

*I agree to post at least once per day although time of day may vary because of work and long commute home. When things are slower some posting can be done at work.

*I agree to look honestly and there is also some fear here about understanding what is actually meant in the questions because people can use words differently and with various intention that I feel like I don’t quite ‘get’ all the time. But I suppose then I could just ask for clarification? Also is a little intimidating that these posts are sooo, um, visible, but will work very hard to not let that color my responses. Writing has always been a good medium for me because it often seems as though I can’t speak and think at the same time. (hahaha!) I recognize that the only way forward is to be as honest as possible because honesty is probably linked to all the core stuff? Blah, blah, blah… 

*My expectations for seeing no self… I expect to be able to stop searching and to stop being frustrated because the feeling that I haven’t quite ‘got it’ yet.
Other expectations in the past year and a half have been focused on ending suffering for myself and for others (perhaps by example?). Have also expected to be have an experience that lasts like the masters speak of.. Mooji, Eckhart, Robert Adams, Nisargadatta Maharaj… Some great overwhelmingly powerful AHA! moment that stays forever. Those expectations have faded somewhat.

I expect to not get so caught up in ‘thinking’ and to be able to drop that thinking as it arises. I expect some sort of underlying peace of mind.

And believe oddly enough there have been expectations abt enlightenment as health benefit, being able to stop myself from eating for entertainment! :D

There have also been expectations related to my presence as a ‘black woman’; that of hoping that other ‘people of color’ seeing me as having sort of chosen this path will somehow relate to this as not being something that only ‘white folks do”. ( I have an activisty past) However, there’s a sense of this sort of identity-related expectation is falling away and that at least for now the focus is here and only here…

I also have expectations that I’m just not going to get it, that it’s not ‘my time’ and that the most I can hope for is to get CLOSER to realizing the truth . And some anxiety about this.

*As for the wonderfully scary things that have unfolded so far, lets see. I was in a relationship that ended (in May) because my partner was miserable being away from her family. It was a long and difficult process but what happened was that at a point there was recognition that I didn’t want to go with her as my own family was here and I could admit that to myself; that I could let things unfold without making ‘effort’ in one direction or another and that life would work things out for the two of us and it would all be ok and it is. There was suffering of course but because of the pointing from teachers I could see that my thinking was perpetuating it.

I feel like I’m writing too much… hmmm.

Other things have also involved no-effort, such as recognizing expectations my adult children have of me and myself of them. There was a point when the two of them weren’t speaking to one another at all because of their anguish over my daughter’s mental health issues and the damage it did to their relationship. I was able to step back-stop DOING- and they decided on their own to visit one another  The scary part has been in the stepping back, letting go of my imaginary control –which wasn’t heavy-handed but still there- and watching life unfold.
Same thing with wanting to plan something for my mom’s 80th birthday, and sweating over calling my dad and trying to be the one to arrange things etc. , but at the same time trusting that something would come together, it did without any effort on my part.

And there have been other smaller everyday synchronicities related to timing mostly (catching buses, projects, purchases, phone calls etc.)

And then there have been a few woo-woo experiences! One such was that on a one night solo silent-retreat I created for my birthday this year there was this point of trying to keep thoughts at bay in the dark in a motel room. And suddenly everything dropped away and there was total silence and there was something (me?) there experiencing all this but there was absolutely no sense of a person. This only lasted maybe a moment, and was frightening for some reason. Another time this happened at work in the breakroom (not frightening).

There was one experience of feeling like I wanted to hug everyone and tell them all was ok . There was one experience of seeing/feeling everyone as consciousness manifested in little bodies, like drops of consciousness.

My cabin is situated on the high bank of a fast moving river and one particular evening I could feel it flowing as me… and trees; have always had this sense of awe/kinship with trees where looking at them intently without thought brings this feeling of being the tree or something or that experience of staring into a mirror and suddenly wondering if that which is looking back is really me.

Still feel like I’m writing too much…

*When you say “There is no Cheryl” doubt comes up even though there is an intellectual understanding of why this is so. Like body is not a thing called me, actions happen without a me. Mind is not me because thoughts just happen. After reading a book called Hidden Brain, the idea that all ‘I’ am is some conglomeration of conditioning and thoughts was pretty powerful but faded. It’s like I can rationalize it but the feel of it is that there is a me and it has a body and it has an unruly mind. Why is there still the sense that there is an ’ I’ who ‘does’? Can’t seem to get past I am connected to my body parts and that I –via the mind- cause them to do things. I soo want to clearly see this with conviction, that there is indeed no Cheryl, hm, or do I want to see? Maybe something doesn’t want to see… idk, confusion. sigh

Thank you for any guidance, I’m looking forward to this as well. I hope this isn’t a bother so close to the holidays?
Love, love
cheryl

oh yeh,
and one more thing along the line of scary experiences. several months ago i started having weird anxiety about dying which even manifested physically in scary scary loss of balance, even went to the urgent care clinic to get checked out, they couldn't point to anything specific,blood sugar and pressure were fine, but at one point i realized this could be related to ego beginning to fall away and it appeared that once that was recognized, it all stopped; the anxiety, the severe loss of balance, fear of imminent death..that blew me away but i wasn't quite convinced that this was what had happened, this 'ego-attack'(?) until someone else related something similar on facebook sangha page.

Hi Cheryl! Thanks for your thorough answer!

But I suppose then I could just ask for clarification?

Sure thing. But it's great to try to figure it out on your end first, too.

I recognize that the only way forward is to be as honest as possible because honesty is probably linked to all the core stuff? Blah, blah, blah… 

Haha, well, nothing that psychological. It's just if you're looking for truth, why swim in the shallow end of the pool? I can agree with your answers all day but it won't mean anything until you experience it, that's all.

My expectations for seeing no self… I expect to not get so caught up in ‘thinking’ and to be able to drop that thinking as it arises. I expect some sort of underlying peace of mind.

If you notice, you already have these superpowers! Or, rather, they're already going on. No self is incredibly ordinary - it's all already going on....

I feel like I’m writing too much… hmmm.

Your instincts are good here. The personal story really doesn't have much of anything to do with this process. It's just human. We'll be looking at perception and thought.

I was curious about your "woo-woo experiences," just to see how they affected your expectations. They may come and go, but don't mean anything for this process.

I also have expectations that I’m just not going to get it....

Worst thing that can happen is, we move on to another set of questions. There are endless questions! :) No worries!

Okay, here's the good part - down to work!

It’s like I can rationalize it but the feel of it is that there is a me and it has a body and it has an unruly mind.

In direct perception - that is, before labels, just sight - where is the owner of body and mind? Can it be pointed to?

Why is there still the sense that there is an ’ I’ who ‘does’? Can’t seem to get past I am connected to my body parts and that I –via the mind- cause them to do things.

Then, experiment - do something and watch to see if a self really did cause it to happen.

Touch the nearest object. When does the motion start? When did a "doer" show up? Did the thought SAYING "Okay, I'm going to do this..." actually do anything?

Is there a doer telling the eyes to pay attention, the skin to feel the touch, the thoughts to think?

This is very simple. Just looking at right now. No theories. Try the touch, repeat, and describe what happens.

Lots of love,
D.

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Worst thing that can happen is, we move on to another set of questions. There are endless questions! :) No worries!

Okay, here's the good part - down to work!

good to know!

In direct perception - that is, before labels, just sight - where is the owner of body and mind? Can it be pointed to?

just sight.., the owner of the body can't be pointed to. I mean i can't use these eyes and point to what i label as 'myself' without a mirror. or without pointing a finger back to this body.

Then, experiment - do something and watch to see if a self really did cause it to happen.

Touch the nearest object. When does the motion start? When did a "doer" show up? Did the thought SAYING "Okay, I'm going to do this..." actually do anything?

Is there a doer telling the eyes to pay attention, the skin to feel the touch, the thoughts to think?

This is very simple. Just looking at right now. No theories. Try the touch, repeat, and describe what happens.

The motion started when you told me to touch the nearest object so i put my hand on my sticky notes and that's when the doer showed up. i became the doer. I looked at something to touch and then i touched it. but sometimes it felt as if the touching at the same time as the looking.

i can't physically hear a doer telling eyes to pay attention, skin to feel the touch, thoughts to think but its like some silent intelligence getting the point across.

~cheryl

but I've been also been taught/conditioned to believe that just because u can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. like oxygen or air or like my parents back east!

but I've been also been taught/conditioned to believe that just because u can't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. like oxygen or air or like my parents back east!

Sure, that's fine. The difference is, your parents are not an assumption - if you check, using a microscope or whatever, they will actually be there. The self is more like Santa Claus. No amount of searching will find this person.

just sight.., the owner of the body can't be pointed to. I mean i can't use these eyes and point to what i label as 'myself' without a mirror. or without pointing a finger back to this body.

Well, go try a mirror. Where is the center of the self? Try pointing to it. Does the thing pointed at have any qualities a self is supposed to have? Or does it feel like a pretty unsatisfying guess?

Because of cells dividing and dying off, this body isn't the same one that came out of your mother. It has become a completely new body multiple times! So how could the self be the same thing as the body? If a finger was cut off, would Cheryl feel any less like Cheryl?

The motion started when you told me to touch the nearest object...

Nice catch! In a way, those words caused the movement. But so did sitting next to a post-it note, reading a computer screen, the electricity running from the wall... all of this contributed.

...i became the doer.

Who became what? If you were already the doer, how could you become one?

I looked at something to touch and then i touched it...

This is closer to what happens in perception, but the "I" part of it still cannot be found. We can say that looking happened, that a finger moved, but where is the "I" in all of this?

So, there's an image of an object, and then a finger touches it. What happens before, during, and after?

Try again, with an object a little further away so there's plenty of time to watch. Try it a few times.

Before the arm starts moving, is there a trigger that tells it to move? Is the motion controlled by anything, or does it just seem to happen?
Does the feeling of touch travel anywhere, to someone who feels it?
Is there a very suble feeling of relief when the body does what it's "told" to do?
What is the mind saying during all of this?

i can't physically hear a doer telling eyes to pay attention, skin to feel the touch, thoughts to think but its like some silent intelligence getting the point across.

Is this silent intelligence observed in perception, or is it a theory? Can it be watched giving orders, or do limbs just move?

Sure, that's fine. The difference is, your parents are not an assumption - if you check, using a microscope or whatever, they will actually be there. The self is more like Santa Claus. No amount of searching will find this person.

*So are you saying in essence that I am giving the label of SELF to a sort of amalgamation of body parts and thoughts, perceptions and that’s why there is no one single thing as a SELF?

Well, go try a mirror. Where is the center of the self? Try pointing to it. Does the thing pointed at have any qualities a self is supposed to have? Or does it feel like a pretty unsatisfying guess?

*Ok, I can point to the center of my body but I cannot point to the center of self (as body/mind) visually, in an external way. I’m pointing at a reflection of my body, and the reflection-as a reflection- doesn’t have any qualities. And it is kind of guessing, nothing concrete.

Because of cells dividing and dying off, this body isn't the same one that came out of your mother. It has become a completely new body multiple times! So how could the self be the same thing as the body? If a finger was cut off, would Cheryl feel any less like Cheryl?

*You mean like, how could the self be the same as the body that I had as a child because the self is some kind of constant? I’m not wanting to go and cut off my finger so it feels like I can’t have that direct experience, but I think I can imagine what you mean. :D

Nice catch! In a way, those words caused the movement. But so did sitting next to a post-it note, reading a computer screen, the electricity running from the wall... all of this contributed.

*Ok, yes that’s true.

Who became what? If you were already the doer, how could you become one?

*Ok, I guess what I’m trying to say is body/mind didn’t become anything, but seems like maybe the doer is an aspect of what I refer to as myself, and this rather invisible doer aspect gets activated to make something happen?

to continue:

This is closer to what happens in perception, but the "I" part of it still cannot be found. We can say that looking happened, that a finger moved, but where is the "I" in all of this

*I is the body/mind that supplies the finger to be moved and the directive to move it?

So, there's an image of an object, and then a finger touches it. What happens before, during, and after?

Try again, with an object a little further away so there's plenty of time to watch. Try it a few times.

Before the arm starts moving, is there a trigger that tells it to move? Is the motion controlled by anything, or does it just seem to happen?
Does the feeling of touch travel anywhere, to someone who feels it?
Is there a very suble feeling of relief when the body does what it's "told" to do?
What is the mind saying during all of this?

*Hmm, the trigger seems to be the looking at the thing to be touched, which causes me to follow the unspoken instruction of touching it. I feel the touch of my finger on the telephone, but the feeling doesn’t seem to travel anywhere. and afterwards, i looked for something else to touch. No I don’t feel relief, maybe not catching that subtlety. Mind is saying ‘you are missing something, you should be getting this. Are you doing it right? Are you understanding what she has asked?

Is this silent intelligence observed in perception, or is it a theory? Can it be watched giving orders, or do limbs just move?

*I’d say the silent intelligence is a theory. It cannot be watched, more like sensed I think.

whew, this is difficult, my brain hurts! but its ok, i want this!

Ok, so because of reading quotes from the app it is becoming increasingly clear that there is too much thinking involved in this process. Cheryl is thinking more than looking. referring to myself this way seems to help me get out of my own way, somehow. I see that that which i label 'I' is always involved with a series a actions, whether physical or mental."I am thinking, I am writing, what do I want to do? I should buy that" and so on and so on. So this I takes on the qualities of a noun when it's really more like a description of a actions that relate to this body.That which is labeled i is a bunch of processes experienced. So its as if saying "I'm taking a bath" is the same as saying "Taking a bath is taking a bath". this is how it comes across here.
~c

*So are you saying in essence that I am giving the label of SELF to a sort of amalgamation of body parts and thoughts, perceptions and that’s why there is no one single thing as a SELF?

Oh, I don't want to imply anything other than "There is no self." That's all.

But that idea came up again in this quote:

That which is labeled i is a bunch of processes experienced.

So, let's look at this. Is there anything collecting or holding together a bunch of experiences?
In perception, can any sort of central authority figure be found?

I see that that which i label 'I' is always involved with a series a actions, whether physical or mental."I am thinking, I am writing, what do I want to do? I should buy that" and so on and so on. So this I takes on the qualities of a noun when it's really more like a description of a actions that relate to this body.That which is labeled i is a bunch of processes experienced.

Good so far! So is "I" anything more than a word used to construct sentences? Does it point to anything? If it seems like it does - then look there for what it's supposedly pointing at. Is it really a self? Please describe!