Hi John,
So you see that experience is just happening without ‘you’ doing anything. Does the same go for thinking?
When I look – yes – it is possible to see that in a resting state of observation take listening. To start with I say that I hear a sound but when looked for neither the “I” nor ‘the sound’ can be found as identifiable objects. There is just hearing going on. And looking at that I ask, “so what is it that this hearing is appearing to?” Looking there one finds just hearing, there is no separate hearer and that which is heard. All that the so called sound is, is the hearing of it. And even that is not right because there is no ‘it’ to be found it is just hearing. Listening to a sound slowly fade and disappear one is left with the odd sense that hearing is still going on, its just that there is no ‘content’ any more.
This can be done with all the senses.
Where do thoughts come from?
Thoughts just appear, I do not know what the next one will be – because that in itself would be another thought which is just happening now. And just like hearing described above there isn’t even really a thought – its just thinking. And when thinking comes to and end one is left with the sense that, there is just the stuff of thinking, but without content.
Are you in control of them? Can you choose to think only pleasant thoughts?
Sometimes it feels like one can exercise some kind of control over thoughts for example next I’m going to think about eating an orange…. But the strange thing is that whilst yes, I have just thought about eating an orange, the level of detail imagery and texture of peeling the skin, feeling the zest oil on my fingers, the juice running down my chin etc. etc. all of that was completely unpredicted it just arose wonderfully by itself. Carrying this out shows again and again that the choosing function is an illusory.
Can you stop a thought from coming? Can you stop it in the middle?
You can’t stop a thought from ‘coming’ because before it is experienced it has no being and likewise after it has passed. One can distract oneself from unpleasant thoughts – or rather an unpleasant chain of thought. It happened last night when someone was talking about what was in the news and there was some nasty child abuse story and it took some effort but it appeared to be possible to distract the chain of thought.
This is tricky because it is only another thought which says a chain of thought – prior to that it was just thinking unfolding as it does. [I’ve never written stuff down like this before and it is clarifying a lot of things – I hope you don’t mind my brain dumping!]
Do you know what the next thought will be?
No but the example of the orange above seems to suggest some degree of ‘agency’.
Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?
I can think both words I and table and they are made of the same thinking stuff. In terms of images or other sensory imaginations e.g. the kinaesthetic imagination of putting my hand on the table then the I can imagine doing that to a part of the body, but that is as close as such imagining can get to “I” and that is not really “I” at all.
Can a thought think?
No, clear as day, no but considering this question takes you to an odd place because it shows from a different angle again that I simply can not find an object called a thought which has its own defined existence. Even if I could …. Could a thought think?.... if it could, it surely could only think about itself.
Please can you provide details, where possible, with reference to your own experience.
Since you are not a newcomer to non-duality, is there anything in particular you are getting stuck with, John, with regards to seeing the 'separate self' is an illusion? It may help me to guide with more specific pointing if you let me know.
Dear Brigitte, much of the experiential work I am quite familiar with but above I have found it useful to actually write it down as it appears – thanks. I think the area where I am getting a bit stuck, being brutally honest with myself is that I have a tendency to want to be accepted and avoid conflict and this sometimes makes it difficult to stop and say “No I don’t understand this” so I fear that I have skipped over some things in my non-dual path so far kidding myself that I have understood them when I have not. ON the other hand friends at satsangs say I ask some really good questions – they do tend to be all about the process of investigation. Some people ask about personal issues – I have rarely done this – it seems so difficult to formulate a question, but there is an ‘itch’ there. So I think the questions you are asking are good and yes we should probably go at a slowish pace just to check that I really understand direct experience and what it ‘says’ and we can progress to the personal knitty gritty which I think is probably where I am stuck.
I think a crux some how is translating these passive exercises into more active situations, where some kind of challenge or compulsive doubting or feeling of resistance arises. There is a sesnse of an individual who is on the defensive and so very quickly all that has been explored in the perceptive enquiries seems to evaporate. The important thing I think will be to investigate this sense of self and show that it is an illusory subject.
I have been on this path quite some time and something is not falling into place or is ‘holding out’ Yes one gets quiet glimpses but being honest I do find myself quite envious of friends who have profound breakthroughs and I start to question why can I not see this – am I not being honest? Do I know how to be honest enough? Perhaps its not that, perhaps something else….
….Well you did ask!.... :)
Warmly
John