Requesting a guide

[Anotherway2b]

Hi,

I've read the Gateless Gatecrashers book and taken a look through the material on this website. I partially understand the concept that there is no self but in order to see the truth of it all I think I need some guidance to nudge me through. Help me please!

Simon.

[Metta777]

Hi Simon,

I would be glad to help. Let me know what your expectations of the process are. That you have read the disclaimer and agree to it. A little something about past experiences. Regards, Metta

[Anotherway2b]

Hi Metta,

Thanks very much for getting back to me. I have read the disclaimer and I agree to it. In terms of my expectations of the process, after reading previous posts and the book, I expect there to be a shift in the way I think. I expect the way I think about myself, other people and the world to be challenged. I hope to develop a fresh, more authentic, perspective on the way I go about doing things. This may sound a bit grandiose but don’t expect it to be so. In fact I hope there will be a kind of real, simple feel to it all. With regards to my past experiences, I’m not sure what you are after... I’ve been fairly fortunate in life and I’m grateful for this. No huge traumatic events, no longstanding mental health problems. I have a keen study and work interest in clinical psychology, the application of psychological approaches to treat mental health problems, and I know a bit about meditation through this but I don’t confess to knowing a lot about it.

Thanks,


Simon

[Metta777]

Hi Another,

Try to put temporarily aside any preconceptions for the time being about religion, any spiritual beliefs , etc. Meditation is fine. I will ask questions, ask you to participate in exercises and report on them, provide some information. The focus is experiential and not as much intellectual.

Is there a self? If so what is it? Having experience with psychology you are most likely familiar with developmental stages in humans. So from 18 to 22 months there is no sense of self, a baby is not born with one. Over this period of time one starts to develop. What would you perceive the reason to be?

Just a small start. Namaste, Metta

[Metta777]

Hi Another,

Plus daily contact is needed, hope this is not a problem. Thanks, Metta

[Anotherway2b]

Hi Metta,

Ok sure, no preconceptions, experiential not intellectual, got it. Daily contact shouldn't be a problem. I'm in the UK so there may be a time difference?

Prior to to the last few weeks I've never really questioned if there is a self. It's something I guess I've just taken for granted that exists. If I had to define it I suppose it would be the summation of everything that makes me me. What happens on a biological level: cardiovascular, neural functioning etc. What happens on a psychological level: how I think, feel and act. And what happens on a social level: How I relate to others and how others relate to me. I suppose I see the self as all of this pulled together.

The reasons why I think the self develops is partly due to the built in nature of humans but mainly due to how we are nurtured (and how those before us have been nurtured). We are social beings and through the interactions we share with our main care giver, usually mum, a self is fostered.

Hope this is what you are after,

Simon.

[Metta777]

Hi Another,

A good start. It doesn't matter what I am after, just speak as plainly, honestly and openly as you are able. :-)
Would you say that conditioning plays a big part in what is reacted to or learned. First by family, church, temple, media and the surrounding culture. So with that in mind, is there anything that did not come from somewhere else? Then due to experiences pathways are laid down in the mind, electro-chemical processes that form memories and from this we fabricate a self?
Thinking about the past, does it exist any longer? Is it even a reliable indicator of what is happening? or happened? Notice that when a crime occurs for example and the police question witnesses, they all saw the same event but will have different answers. Also, try to picture in your mind someone that you haven't seen in a long while, can you get a clear picture of their face? Sharp image so you know exactly what they look like. Try looking in the mirror, at yourself for 5 or 10 minutes, whatever is comfortable, when you leave the mirror is there a clear,sharp image of what you look like?
So the past is dead the moment it is experienced and we are reborn in every moment. So keeping that in mind, is there a future? Or is the future just a projected concept based on past experiences?
One more question. doesn't that make a self, just a conceptual overlay on experience? Take your time and just answer the best you can. Warm Regards, Metta

[Anotherway2b]

Wow, some mindblowing questions Metta.

Conditioning does play a huge role, yes. Particularly when someone is younger. You are vulnerable, more easily persuaded and influenced then. But there must be something else at play? Particularly when you get older. Decision making processes about whether or not to accept what you see as fact must be made, no? Are you saying that there is nothing about me that is original or unique? I can start to see where you are coming from. I'm struggling a bit though. If the self is fabricated what truly is there instead? Moment to moment existence is something that really appeals to me. I've tried it lots but my mind always tugs me back into the past or forward into the future. Does the past and future exist? Past memories can shape you and they can predict how you will act in the future. But memories can become distorted and some have stronger ones than others. That's why people differ when it comes to recall. If the past doesn't exist, does that mean that I don't need to own any responsibility for things I've done then? What about someone who robs a bank and then argues that it was in the past so I don't need to claim ownership of that? I'm a little tangled up here.

I did the mirror exercise. Yes, you are right I can't remember exactly what I see. I am still struggling a bit with this entire no past, no future approach. Please help!

[Metta777]

Hi Another,

Conditioning does play a huge role, yes

Your mind is like a computer, from the moment you were born it started labeling ,categorizing and organizing huge lumps of data. From the period of birth until about 18 to 22 months there is no sense of self for a baby. Why would that be unless there isn't any and it is being manufactored by organizing around learned behavior and direct experience? What is there all the time is awareness. (consciousness) Stop thinking for about 2 minutes as long as you are able, and notice that awareness is still there. So awareness is not based on thought. So looking inside yourself or anywhere else can you find a
self ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 6S9OidmNZM

Please take a look at this link and give me your thoughts on this. thank you.

Past memories can shape you and they can predict how you will act in the future.

Look closely at this, is it memory or conditioning that does the shaping. Is this body of conditioning a self? Try to answer the questions the best you can.

But memories can become distorted and some have stronger ones than others.

Thoughts arise, then emotions attach based on the conditioned response. If something has a strong emotional cue or is traumatic it can have a stronger impact on conditioning.

does that mean that I don't need to own any responsibility for things I've done then?

Who is the "I" to take responsibility? What do you think it means?

Yes, you are right I can't remember exactly what I see

Why do you think that is???

Love, Metta

[Anotherway2b]

I tried to stop thinking. It was a hard as my mind kept wondering about! I do see what you mean though I think. Consciousness is always there regardless. Yes, I get that.

I have seen the clip. The findings are pretty interesting. I understand it to mean that neural activity can cause me to act in a particular way before I know that I'm going to do it. It's not that I am being forced to do stuff I want to do as the values and beliefs I hold tend to correspond with the activity that happens within my brain. It does however imply a kind of separateness that I have not really contemplated before. There is an I or me and there is something else? What is this something else then? Is this the result of the conditioning that you describe?

'Past memories can shape you and they can predict how you will act in the future.'

Yes I could swap memories with conditioning here. I understand what you are saying. The conditioning supplies us with a way of putting ourselves into a context. So you are saying there is no memory, just conditioning?

It seems that 'I' is perhaps not everything I thought it was. 'I' is what happens at a surface, conscious level. This 'I' is the result of conditioning, not memories because they don't exist?

And this is partly the reason why I can't remember exactly what I see after I look in the mirror ? There is no memory, just the present and my conditioned response?

[Metta777]

Hi Another,

What would you say if I said there was no self at all, there never was. We have already seen that awareness can exist without an identity. This happens with animals who have no self or identity, they live in the present moment. Also, we discussed human babies have no identity to begin with it is built up by the brain formulating data into doable chunks and making memories from electro-chemical reactions in the brain. By learning labels and action/reaction processes. for example, if a snake bits you, next time your brain will scream danger even if it is a garden snake. There will be that anxiety as an automatic reaction. So of everything that makes up who you think you are it is all second hand information from other sources or direct experience.

It's not that I am being forced to do stuff I want to do as the values and beliefs I hold tend to correspond with the activity that happens within my brain.

In fact you have no control, your brain decides what to do before you even know it. There are memories, but the context of the past and the future are not reality. the reality is NOW. do any of us know we have a future? Or is it a projection based on past data in the brain?

Is there seperation? If you look at a television, you will see a black screen. You turn it on and you see a beautiful landscape. You get involved in the movie, start feeling the emotions, the characters feel. someone walks in and says , " Look at the screen!" The black screen is still there, it just appears to be a landscape.

Could that be a comparison to life? Behind everything is there an awareness always there? The characters in your life, the thoughts just arise, no control there. Can a thought think itself? If you are thinking, who is looking at the thoughts? What happens to a thought, once you think it? Can you control your thoughts? Especially when your brain makes decisions without you being aware of them?

Thoughts just arise, we think 80 thousand thoughts a day, we are not even aware of all of them, when they float up, emotion becomes attached after the fact.We give them our attention and react to them Given all this info, do you really have control?

What is this something else then?

Yes, what is it? Could it be just awareness of life living itself?

Warm Regards, Metta

[Metta777]

P.S. Instructions on how to use the quote function are above I believe. It makes it easier to read the quotes responded too. thanks, Metta

[Anotherway2b]

Hi Metta

What would you say if I said there was no self at all, there never was.

I would say that I think I can see this. The self is just a product of conditioning from an early age. A social construction? I must say I like the idea. I can feel it resonating with me. Although the feeling is positive within me it does feel a bit shocking and disturbing. I mean, fundamental beliefs I hold about my self are being challenged on a simple level. Nevertheless this is appealing.

I like the analogies. They really help to bring things home. Yes, I can understand what you are saying about reality being now, the past being a result of neurological processing and the future being a projection.

In fact you have no control, your brain decides what to do before you even know it.

This concept is something I am struggling with a little. Can you expand, please? I agree with you that thoughts cannot be controlled or suppressed. In my experience they can be managed though. Reflected upon and weighed up.

If I am thinking, I am the only one looking at the thoughts right? What happens to a thought once it is thought depends on the strength of which it is believed. Stronger thoughts are more likely to lead to the production of feelings and actions.

Given all this info, do you really have control?

The control I think I have is just an illusion. All that exists is awareness? Life living life? I like this way of thinking. Do you know of any experiential exercises I could do to test this out?

Appreciating your guidance,

Simon.

[Metta777]

Hi Another,

If you would like for me to use Simon I could. There are many exercises. One is called walking meditation. Take a short walk or however long you like. Notice everything, when you put your foot down, which touches the ground first heel or toe? Notice all the sounds, rocks, sky, is it blue, grey, feel your breathing, in and out, how does your body feel stopped and standing, any stress points, how does it feel to begin walking again , are the stress points relieved by walking. Can you feel the breath in your nostrils, or your heart beating? If you sit for a moment and listen to everything and close your eyes, are you sure the objects around you are still there? If you block your ears and close your eyes and stop your thinking, while sitting, what is always present, even with many of the senses blocked?

When looking at a line of trees and a field, physically you can see where the field ends and the trees begin. but using just awareness as a criteria, can you tell where the field ends and the trees begin? Is there an edge to awareness where it can be seen to end ,or is it in,out and all around?

When hunger is experienced, how is it experienced? What actually tells you that you are hungry?

Does awareness need an identity? Are there any examples of awareness around you with no identity? If you really look and look within can you find a self? Love, Metta

[Metta777]

Hi Another,

Thoughts arise, correct? Emotions, concepts, etc. are seconds later in the process, so if this is the case, where would the control be? Are you just a conceptual overlay on thoughts arising? If the brain is only aware of the thoughts seconds after they arise, who is thinking? Who is making the actual decisions?
:-) Metta