Charlie Looking for a Guide +

[charlieaa]

Have read most of the book - Visit with Elena in Pismo Beach in late August. Should she be my guide - then she can slap me f2f. Am open for all.

[charlieaa]

A bit about "me": 73 yo, long time Theraveda Buddhist (and teacher, my god) + a Goenka stint - but NO "spiritual" practice for 3 years - all just concepts/expectations. I have SO much to unlearn! All of Jed, most Wheeler, Gangaji, Parsons, Jan Frazier, Adya - for 5 yrs now. So "I know the deal." But, have yet to be able to get honest. Feel I need active, persistent engagement with a guide to "slap me in the face," close off all escape routes, and re-direct/divert my BS. OK, back to writing on this US holiday.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hello Charlie,

I'm not sure Elena is available for guiding, but if you're eager to get started I'd be a happy to be your guide.
Let me know.

Best wishes
Silvia

[charlieaa]

Hi Silvia,
Am I doing this right? Yes, let's get started. "I" feel as if I'll be a tough case but that's what the book was about. As I write I think it's 5 PM in London. So, we'll have some time lags, right? OK?

Be Well,

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi again Charlie

Yes there will be some time lags but it shouldn't be a problem. My own guide was based in L.A and it wasn't a problem. Were about in the States do you live?

You've read most of the book so you're already familiar with how this process works. Just a couple of things before we start proper.

If you haven't already, please read the disclaimer on the homepage:http://www.liberationunleashed.com/?

This is our working agreement;

1. You agree to post once a day, time permitting.
2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers.
3. When you answer/report, please do so with 100% honestly and answer from what you see,
4. and when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

If you agree to the above, we can get started.

So from your introduction it sounds like you are a seasoned traveller in the journey to ultimate truth. You must have learned a very great deal along the way. And it's all brought you here. But for now I'm going to ask you to put it all down, like so much luggage. Ease the weight off your shoulders and look at the world with the fresh eyes and simplicity of a new born. All your learning and experience will still be there for you to pick up again once you've crossed and you may even find it all shines with a new meaning. But for now you'll concern yourself only with immediate direct experience and nothing else.

What are your expectations about this process? Make a list please.

For example ,

"I" feel as if I'll be a tough case

;-)

What expectations have you got regarding seeing through the illusion of self? Make another shopping list with the things you think will change or that you think/hope will happen.

Much love
Silvia x

[charlieaa]

Hi Silvia,

I live half way between LA & SF near the coast in a rural oak-studded paradise that has been discovered by the cities north and south. ugh.

Have read disclaimer, watched most of the videos.

If you agree to the above, we can get started.

I agree.

Luggage is put down (I think) - I KNOW you'll help me with that assumption! Fresh eyes.

What are your expectations about this process? Make a list please.
tough case

* Tend to be a perfectionist-gotta get every thing just right.
* Accordingly, I talk to myself a LOT- rehearsing conversations mostly (e.g., joint sessions of Congress.) That seems to put a damper on my ability to be spontaneous, I think. As I talk, I kinda make stuff up so I'll look/feel better. (Honesty problems.)
* "I'm special" - often feel like a victim; "it (nothing) will work for me" like it does for most others - "it's not GD'd fair!"; I have a bad temper.
* I believe I'm very distracted, scatterbrained - unfocused. But, I was an engineer and did have prolonged periods of attention years ago.

All these feel like, right now, lame excuses driven by fear of our new process.

What expectations have you got regarding seeing through the illusion of self? Make another shopping list with the things you think will change or that you think/hope will happen.

* Accept the world as it comes at me.
* Without fear.
* Finally fulfill "my life's purpose." (We'll fix THAT, right? But, the idea is I don't want to die without using this precious existence/opportunity to see the truth - NO NO - to have some time living in peace without the fear of death.)
* Not be a tough case anymore.

Silvia, I am in the process of abandoning the background illusion/goal of being the sangha guru - go to guy. (I have been.) I really don't know sh*t anymore and it's starting to feel good.

I hope this is not:

Long winded analytical and philosophical answers

Please direct me as to the proper buttons to push for posting. I've hit "reply", post, . . .can't seem to find instructions which one to press. I hope you get this.

Thank you for taking me on.

In Joy,
charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie

Please direct me as to the proper buttons to push for posting. I've hit "reply", post, . . .can't seem to find instructions which one to press. I hope you get this.

I always use the big blue reply button. But you seem to be doing fine. I'm getting your posts.
Incidentally, this website has a habit of logging you out sometimes, and you can end up having to re-write an entire post. To avoid this, I suggest writing on a word document and then copying and pasting once you're ready to send the post.

Luggage is put down (I think) - I KNOW you'll help me with that assumption! Fresh eyes.

Good! It's about about having an attitude of openness and willingness to be with direct experience rather than resorting to learned ideas and concepts. Be naked with things as they are. If you feel a bit (or very) vulnerable then you're doing it right.

* Tend to be a perfectionist-gotta get every thing just right.
* Accordingly, I talk to myself a LOT- rehearsing conversations mostly (e.g., joint sessions of Congress.) That seems to put a damper on my ability to be spontaneous, I think. As I talk, I kinda make stuff up so I'll look/feel better. (Honesty problems.)
* "I'm special" - often feel like a victim; "it (nothing) will work for me" like it does for most others - "it's not GD'd fair!"; I have a bad temper.
* I believe I'm very distracted, scatterbrained - unfocused. But, I was an engineer and did have prolonged periods of attention years ago.

Ok, exercise time. I'd like you to rewrite what you wrote here. But this time I want you to take the subject completely out of the equation.
I'll do the first one for you.

There seems to be a tendency towards perfectionism

So, not only did I take the I (implied) out of the sentence but also the supposed perfectionist. Now there is just is the recognition of a patter or habit. Also don't be too final about the statement. So there is becomes there seems to be.
See if you can do the same with the rest even if you have to re-write the sentence completely.

All these feel like, right now, lame excuses driven by fear of our new process.

Fear is here to protect you. It is your friend. Only, there is no "you" to protect. That makes fear a sort of misguided friend with good intentions. It's also a good pointer that you're moving in the right direction. Embrace your fear with kindness and openness. Relax into it. Drop the question into the sensation, what is fear trying to protect?

* Accept the world as it comes at me.
* Without fear.
* Finally fulfill "my life's purpose." (We'll fix THAT, right? But, the idea is I don't want to die without using this precious existence/opportunity to see the truth - NO NO - to have some time living in peace without the fear of death.)
* Not be a tough case anymore.

Your expectations sound quite reasonable Charlie. But let's leave them behind for now. Not because there's anything wrong with them, but because expectations are ideas about the future and tend to get in the way. Be completely open to what is.

What dies when we die?
What is dying?
Is there Death?
Is death anything more than an idea? Does it exist anywhere other that in the mind?
If there is no "you" then how can you die?
Can Santa, or a unicorn, or Big Foot die anywhere other than in the imagination?

Sit with these questions for a while and let me know what comes up in your experience.


Another exercise;
Tell me what happens when you read this statement.

Right now there is no you, no I, no self. Not one bit. There never was and there never will be.

Describe what thoughts, emotions, bodily reactions.. arise. You can make another shopping list if you want.

I really don't know sh*t anymore and it's starting to feel good.

Excellent! :-) Not knowing is a very good place from wich to see the truth of the way things are. You're suspended as it were in your own direct experience. Not trying to make anything into this or that. Like Padmasambhava said, make your mantra "I do not know, I do not have, I do not understand".

I hope this is not:

Long winded analytical and philosophical answers

Not at all! And I greatly appreciate the honesty in your answers.

Thank you for taking me on.

I can say in all honesty that it is my pleasure :-)


I've given you quite a lot of questions and things to ponder. Take your time answering them. It's almost bed-time over-here anyway, so I won't be able to read your answer till tomorrow morning.
Sit with them for a while or go for a walk. And when you answer do so from your own experience and with 110% honesty. I cannot emphasize that enough.
I look forward to reading what you write!

Much love
Silvia x

[charlieaa]

Dear Silvia,

Must be evening there as I write this.

Ok, exercise time. I'd like you to rewrite what you wrote here. But this time I want you to take the subject completely out of the equation.
I'll do the first one for you.
There seems to be a tendency towards perfectionism
So, not only did I take the I (implied) out of the sentence but also the supposed perfectionist. Now there is just is the recognition of a patter or habit. Also don't be too final about the statement. So there is becomes there seems to be.
See if you can do the same with the rest even if you have to re-write the sentence completely.

* Tend to be a perfectionist-gotta get every thing just right.
* Accordingly, I talk to myself a LOT- rehearsing converstions mostly (e.g., joint sessions of Congress.) That seems to put a damper on my ability to be spontaneous, I think. As I talk, I kinda make stuff up so I'll look/feel better. (Honesty problems.)
* "I'm special" - often feel like a victim; "it (nothing) will work for me" like it does for most others - "it's not GD'd fair!"; I have a bad temper.
* I believe I'm very distracted, scatterbrained - unfocused. But, I was an engineer and did have prolonged periods of attention years ago.

Rewrite:

1) Perfectionism seems to arise often that sometimes appears as rehearsing.
2) Co-arising is a sense that spontaneity and honesty are lost. Subtle, disturbing feelings of guilt and phoniness seems to accompany 1).
3) Underneath 1) & 2), lurks a notion of a need for safety and avoidance of fear.
4) So, a lot of the time, there arises a sense of being different, that the world isn't fair.
5) Occasionally, there are outbursts of anger that seem to be defying that difference. Again, the need for safety, no fear.
6) Frequently, thoughts seem to overrun/conflict with each other. It looks like out of this arises all of the above.

What dies when we die?
What is dying?

From observing others, it appears that bodily functions cease including sensations and awareness of them. Dying could be defined as the act in the moment when these cessations happen - cease to happen.

Is there Death?
Is death anything more than an idea? Does it exist anywhere other that in the mind?

"Death" looks like no more than another thought of a supposed future event. Therefore, it does not exist.

If there is no "you" then how can you die?
Can Santa, or a unicorn, or Big Foot die anywhere other than in the imagination?

These ideas are seen clearly lately - but not often (see below.)

Right now there is no you, no I, no self. Not one bit. There never was and there never will be.
Describe what thoughts, emotions, bodily reactions.. arise. You can make another shopping list if you want.

"Charlie" is a sound, mark, (now) pixels conferred on this body/mind at birth. No more than that. It's been nurtured and expanded upon for about 7 decades. When reading the book, at times, this is stark. But only fleeting so far. The reactions seem to be: a figurative short gasp; surprise; a sense of falling out of control; and, of course fear. Also, there's a short experience of elation - "My gawd, freedom!!"

But, all this is only fleeting. "I", this thought-stream/memory thingy can "understand" the concept of "no me." There arises frustration that it's all in the head, mostly and that the understanding should be in the "heart/gut."

Silvia, this "Charlie body/thing" has an energy-sapping, very painful mouth infection the last few days that is making the ongoing sciatica feel much worse. So, naturally arising is an effort to look at this experience - heavily laden with the "I thought," "I'm hurting, when is this crap going away so I can concentrate on the looking we're doing." Can we use this as an opportunity to look deeper into experience? Also, the sentiment arises that pain meds might compromise our all-out effort.

The wanting to post every day within our time difference seems to cause some hurrying on this end. But, our exercises are ongoing anyway, right?

Have a nice sleep. I'll be up for another 9 hours. It's 11 AM here.

Tx, as always!

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hello Charlie,

How's your day going? I've been out and about all day, so this is the first chance I get to sit down and write to you.

* Tend to be a perfectionist-gotta get every thing just right.
* Accordingly, I talk to myself a LOT- rehearsing converstions mostly (e.g., joint sessions of Congress.) That seems to put a damper on my ability to be spontaneous, I think. As I talk, I kinda make stuff up so I'll look/feel better. (Honesty problems.)
* "I'm special" - often feel like a victim; "it (nothing) will work for me" like it does for most others - "it's not GD'd fair!"; I have a bad temper.
* I believe I'm very distracted, scatterbrained - unfocused. But, I was an engineer and did have prolonged periods of attention years ago.

1) Perfectionism seems to arise often that sometimes appears as rehearsing.
2) Co-arising is a sense that spontaneity and honesty are lost. Subtle, disturbing feelings of guilt and phoniness seems to accompany 1).
3) Underneath 1) & 2), lurks a notion of a need for safety and avoidance of fear.
4) So, a lot of the time, there arises a sense of being different, that the world isn't fair.
5) Occasionally, there are outbursts of anger that seem to be defying that difference. Again, the need for safety, no fear.
6) Frequently, thoughts seem to overrun/conflict with each other. It looks like out of this arises all of the above.

What feelings arise when you read the first list?
What feelings arise when you read the second one?
Which of these lists feels truer?

"Charlie" is a sound, mark, (now) pixels conferred on this body/mind at birth. No more than that. It's been nurtured and expanded upon for about 7 decades. When reading the book, at times, this is stark. But only fleeting so far.

You're very close Charlie. What areas of your experience remain unclear?

Is Charlie doing the hearing, the sensing, the seeing?
Is Charlie the thinker, the source of emotions?
Is he the do-er?
The maker of decisions?
The payer of attention?
The witness?

The reactions seem to be: a figurative short gasp; surprise; a sense of falling out of control; and, of course fear. Also, there's a short experience of elation - "My gawd, freedom!!"

If there has never been a "you", what will fall out control once it's seen that there is no "you". Is there a you in control right now?

it's all in the head, the understanding should be in the "heart/gut."

Is this true?

Seeing is just seeing. It has nothing to do with understanding of any kind. It is very simple. One moment there is a strong believe the is a an existing separate self, the next it is seen that there isn't. Seen; not understood. Like when you thought you had $50 in your wallet and then you went to pay for somethign and oops! there was no money in your wallet! Seeing through the pesky illusion of self really is exactly like that. So simple. Disappointingly so! The mind so loves to solve difficulties and problems... But there is nothing to be solved or understood here.

Silvia, this "Charlie body/thing" has an energy-sapping, very painful mouth infection the last few days that is making the ongoing sciatica feel much worse. So, naturally arising is an effort to look at this experience - heavily laden with the "I thought," "I'm hurting, when is this crap going away so I can concentrate on the looking we're doing." Can we use this as an opportunity to look deeper into experience? Also, the sentiment arises that pain meds might compromise our all-out effort.

I'm really sorry to hear this Charlie
LABELS
Energy-Sapping; Very painful; Mouth Infection, Worse; Hurting;

Can you see how the mind labels sensations and how it spins a story out of them? There are sensations, habit labels them as pleasant or unpleasant. In this case mostly unpleasant. Further labeling happens based on habit, conditioning and past experience. Then the mind spins a story happening to "me" out them and creates a "problematic situation" that "I" must solve.

Is there a difference between pain & suffering? Is it possible for it to be there pain but not suffering?

What is pain a label for?

What is suffering?

Try this now. Drop the labels and just be with the sensations in the body. Meet the sensations with kindness and openness. What happens?

Watch the labelling happen. Can you identify any familiar patterns? How does labelling happen? What decides what's pleasant or unpleasant? Is there a moment, no matter how brief, before any labelling happens, when there is just raw sensation? What does that feel like?

By all means take pain meds Charlie. They won't interfere at all. The experience being a painful one (even if painful is just a label) doesn't add any more value or merit to our current search.

The wanting to post every day within our time difference seems to cause some hurrying on this end. But, our exercises are ongoing anyway, right?

No need to hurry the answers Charlie. This is your own process, as long as you're being honest with yourself, feel free to move at your own pace. For example you can spend the day looking and reflecting on the questions and then post in the evening, or you can send me several smaller posts throughout the day.
My questions are pointers and it's important you really look at them, but if you feel there's too many at once let me know. Also if any other things come up in your investigations, you feel free to write about them.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Much love and best wishes
Silvia xxx

[charlieaa]

Good evening, Silvia,
The time on your post says it's LATE there. Thank you for answering! And you're in GMT - easy to tell what your local time is - here it's GMT-8, but on daylight-savings-time, or actually for the summer, GMT -7.

* Tend to be a perfectionist-gotta get every thing just right.
* Accordingly, I talk to myself a LOT- rehearsing converstions mostly (e.g., joint sessions of Congress.) That seems to put a damper on my ability to be spontaneous, I think. As I talk, I kinda make stuff up so I'll look/feel better. (Honesty problems.)
* "I'm special" - often feel like a victim; "it (nothing) will work for me" like it does for most others - "it's not GD'd fair!"; I have a bad temper.
* I believe I'm very distracted, scatterbrained - unfocused. But, I was an engineer and did have prolonged periods of attention years ago.

1) Perfectionism seems to arise often that sometimes appears as rehearsing.
2) Co-arising is a sense that spontaneity and honesty are lost. Subtle, disturbing feelings of guilt and phoniness seems to accompany 1).
3) Underneath 1) & 2), lurks a notion of a need for safety and avoidance of fear.
4) So, a lot of the time, there arises a sense of being different, that the world isn't fair.
5) Occasionally, there are outbursts of anger that seem to be defying that difference. Again, the need for safety, no fear.
6) Frequently, thoughts seem to overrun/conflict with each other. It looks like out of this arises all of the above.

What feelings arise when you read the first list?

First reaction: "I'm sick of me and my relentless stories!!" 2nd: There's a "me" in there desperate to run the show - make judgements - solve (imagined?) problems - you address that later - GOOD!!

What feelings arise when you read the second one?

It's freer, more space, more objective, much less intense. Doesn't have to be right/correct. An important seeing is emerging characterized by the words "impersonal" and "on auto-pilot."

Which of these lists feels truer?

Of course, the 2nd.

The last couple of days, thoughts and, to some extent conversations, have been screened to remove the "I." It's a bit awkward. But, you indicated - and it seems to be working - that seeing thru the "I" illusion will accelerate if correspondence from here - and in everyday activities - needs this. Many other posts don't do this. Is it progressing as you instructed?

"Charlie" is a sound, mark, (now) pixels conferred on this body/mind at birth. No more than that. It's been nurtured and expanded upon for about 7 decades. When reading the book, at times, this is stark. But only fleeting so far.

You're very close Charlie. What areas of your experience remain unclear?

Is Charlie doing the hearing, the sensing, the seeing?

No

Is Charlie the thinker, the source of emotions?

No, mostly.

Is he the do-er?; The maker of decisions?; The payer of attention?

Sometimes it appears as if there are situations where answers to these 3 questions seem to be yes. e.g., while typing these answers, there's a critical faculty operating that seems to be "controlled" by an editing function. The words/ideas are being fashioned/shaped to make the most honest and clear sense to you. But, as you write below (here quoted):

If there has never been a "you", what will fall out control once it's seen that there is no "you". Is there a you in control right now?

But, this isn't seen in many moments yet. ➀(More on this below)

The witness?

How about: "Is charlie the answerer of these questions?" or are they just arising to the level of awareness of this body/mind/thought-stream? There is a strong felt sense that they need to marinate some more. It's a pleasant "mulling," tho.

The reactions seem to be: a figurative short gasp; surprise; a sense of falling out of control;
and, of course fear. Also, there's a short experience of elation - "My gawd, freedom!!"

it's all in the head, the understanding should be in the "heart/gut."

Is this true?

Seeing is just seeing. It has nothing to do with understanding of any kind. It is very simple. One moment there is a strong believe the is a an existing separate self, the next it is seen that there isn't. Seen; not understood. Like when you thought you had $50 in your wallet and then you went to pay for somethign and oops! there was no money in your wallet! Seeing through the pesky illusion of self really is exactly like that. So simple. Disappointingly so! The mind so loves to solve difficulties and problems... But there is nothing to be solved or understood here.

Yes, "understanding" is the booby prize! Big question on "seeing": the question arises - how to go about seeing? Elena has written "dig." How? With what faculty? Is it asking the question with the mind, but not trying to answer with the mind? Maybe just sit with the question and trust?

Silvia, this "Charlie body/thing" has an energy-sapping, very painful mouth infection the last few days that is making the ongoing sciatica feel much worse. So, naturally arising is an effort to look at this experience - heavily laden with the "I thought," "I'm hurting, when is this crap going away so I can concentrate on the looking we're doing." Can we use this as an opportunity to look deeper into experience? Also, the sentiment arises that pain meds might compromise our all-out effort.

I'm really sorry to hear this Charlie

LABELS:

Energy-Sapping; Very painful; Mouth Infection, Worse; Hurting;

Can you see how the mind labels sensations and how it spins a story out of them? There are sensations, habit labels them as pleasant or unpleasant. In this case mostly unpleasant. Further labeling happens based on habit, conditioning and past experience. Then the mind spins a story happening to "me" out them and creates a "problematic situation" that "I" must solve.

OH MAN!! It was written so mindlessly - oooops wrong word? Yes, the labels are part of the story making process as you cite below. WHAT A SHOCK!! to see it up close when not expecting it. Thank You!!

Is there a difference between pain & suffering? Is it possible for it to be there pain but not suffering?

Yes - there seems to have been experiences when what's called "pain" just another sensation UNTIL it's named/labeled.

What is pain a label for?

A sensation, if anything. Or, nothing - pain just is.

What is suffering?

The positive feedback of the growing story from the labeling.

Try this now. Drop the labels and just be with the sensations in the body. Meet the sensations with kindness and openness. What happens?

➁ On the morning walk, this instruction was forgotten but is in full application now (well, hopefully).

Watch the labelling happen. Can you identify any familiar patterns? How does labelling happen? What decides what's pleasant or unpleasant? Is there a moment, no matter how brief, before any labelling happens, when there is just raw sensation? What does that feel like?

➁ On this morning's walk, lots of self-talk. Labels applied to people (judging) gave rise to flashes of disapproval and anger. With practice, it was seen that there was space sometimes - raw sensation. But, most of the time, the labels seemed to spring immediately from sub-conscious/habit. They were noticed only after the fact. Some were missed, for sure.

In this regard, a number of the judging streams of thought were caught, aborted. Immediately there arose sensations of discomfort - the labeling of that would be "stop interrupting me, I'm entertaining myself, here!" The question still lingers: since in order to see the labeling, and the process has to be interrupted, what intervening reflection can restore the big picture/equanimity or is the discomfort just to be seen as more sensation(s)?

➀ From above, it's helpful to return to the thought: There's no judg-er, there's no "one" to be interrupted."


Oh boy, Silvia, LOTS of work here. All your guidance is gratefully reviewed every day and applied with new resolve - as much as a non-doer can do.

It'll take about a half hour to copy all this to the posting area with the formatting. You s/get it about 7PM your time. There's plenty to work on here if you need to take time to work with others and actually live your life. But, your posts are greatly anticipated/appreciated!

Have a refreshing sleep.

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hello Charlie,

I hope you're well today.

What feelings arise when you read the first list?

First reaction: "I'm sick of me and my relentless stories!!"

How are they "your" relentless stories? First of all if they were yours how comes you are powerless to stop them? How comes they are out of "your" control?
Second of all, do you make the stories happen? Look at this very carefully. Is there a you making them happen or do they just arise? And do they arise out of thin air or do they arise in dependence of something? Examine this. NOT the content of the story but the acutal process. Look for a habitual story you identify with. Ignore the tale it tells and just watch how it happens, then explain it to me.

2nd: There's a "me" in there desperate to run the show - make judgements - solve (imagined?) problems

There is no you either desperate or not desperate to run anything. Because there is no you. Control is part of the illusion and the desire for control is part of the illusion. Do you agree? don't say yes, because you think is the right answer.

What feelings arise when you read the second one?

It's freer, more space, more objective, much less intense. Doesn't have to be right/correct. "

Can you see that everything you wrote is happening without a you making it happen? And can you see how freeing that is? Anger arises and then goes away. A thought arises and then goes away. A sound , a smell, a taste. It all happens without you. And none of it is personal. When you don't get caught in the story of "me" you see everything as another movement of life lifeing. And it's all inter-connected and nothing is separate.

An important seeing is emerging characterized by the words "impersonal" and "on auto-pilot."

Who says the seeing important? What does that label IMPORTANT mean?

Could you explain a bit what you mean by auto-pilot?

Which of these lists feels truer?

Of course, the 2nd.

Why of course?

The last couple of days, thoughts and, to some extent conversations, have been screened to remove the "I." It's a bit awkward. But, you indicated - and it seems to be working - that seeing thru the "I" illusion will accelerate if correspondence from here - and in everyday activities - needs this. Many other posts don't do this. Is it progressing as you instructed?

When did I instruct you to do this? I just asked you to do an exercise with a list you wrote to help you move away from the story the thoughts tell. I didn't say that from now on you must not use the word I or speak only in the impersonal. If you find it helps, by all means do it, but I'm concerned it might become a purely mental exercise. If the main belief remains unchallenged then talking as if there is no you won't make any difference.

Is Charlie the thinker, the source of emotions?

No, mostly.

Ok, what thoughts or emotions do you make happen? And how do you do that?

Sometimes it appears as if there are situations where answers to these 3 questions seem to be yes. e.g., while typing these answers, there's a critical faculty operating that seems to be "controlled" by an editing function. The words/ideas are being fashioned/shaped to make the most honest and clear sense to you.

Are you this critical faculty or editing function? The fashioner or shaper ideas? Examine closely what happens when you answer the questions. This is a very good area to explore.
Another good question is, if there is no you, what is it that is seeking and looking for answers? ;-) Explore!

How about: "Is charlie the answerer of these questions?" or are they just arising to the level of awareness of this body/mind/thought-stream? There is a strong felt sense that they need to marinate some more. It's a pleasant "mulling," tho.

So, is he? Are they? Keep exploring. I'm glad it's pleasant, but this is not about mulling things over or letting them marinate like chicken, it's about looking from moment to moment, how everything happens. Just LOOK. How are these questions getting answered? Where do the answers come from?

Big question on "seeing": the question arises - how to go about seeing? Elena has written "dig." How? With what faculty? Is it asking the question with the mind, but not trying to answer with the mind? Maybe just sit with the question and trust?

I think you're getting a bit lost in words here. How to go about seeing? My question would be, how do you stop seeing from happening? Try it. can you stop seeing? Even if you close your eyes there is still seeing. When a thought happens can you stop seeing that a thought has happened? When you realise your wallet is empty and dollar-less, how does that happen? Well, you just look and see that is empty.
As for the digging, well isn't that what we've been doing here all along? But it's just a word used to illustrate something, but if it doesn't help just drop it.

Is there a difference between pain & suffering? Is it possible for it to be there pain but not suffering?

Yes - there seems to have been experiences when what's called "pain" just another sensation UNTIL it's named/labeled.

Explore ALL sensations in this way. Have a look around your room and watch the labelling machine we call mind in action. Then drop the labels. What happens when you look at "things" and see the "thing" instead of the mental label. Go for a walk and do this with all your bodily sensations. As you walk, feel the air, listen to sounds, feel the sensations in your feet, your legs, your arms.. Labelling (thoughts) will naturally keep happening, just watch it happening and keep coming back to the pure raw sensations in the body.

A sensation, if anything. Or, nothing - pain just is.

Pain just is, or sensation just is?

In this regard, a number of the judging streams of thought were caught, aborted. Immediately there arose sensations of discomfort - the labeling of that would be "stop interrupting me, I'm entertaining myself, here!"

I can see you are trying to write as if there was no "you" (which there isn't) but do you see that there is no you doing any of the above? Otherwise theres is no point in keeping writing like this. Write in the way that describes best your actual experience whatever that is.

a number of the judging streams of thought were caught, aborted.

And how do you do that?

since in order to see the labeling, and the process has to be interrupted, what intervening reflection can restore the big picture/equanimity or is the discomfort just to be seen as more sensation(s)?

Ok, there's a lack of clarity here. Firstly the first statement is not true. In order to see the labelling you don't have to do anything because it just happens. How do you make seeing the computer in front of you happen??? Well you don't! It's just happening!
Secondly we are not aiming here for equanimity. True equanimity is a by-product of seeing the truth of the way things are, not a goal, and it's not what you think it is.
Thirdly this is not about having the right thoughts or the right reflections, this is about looking at what happens from moment to moment just as it is.

So there is discomfort, what does the label discomfort point to? Do you think this is about making things like "discomfort" go away? And what, achieve an inperturbable state of mind where nothing bothers you ever again? Well, it ain't like that mate. Discomfort and pain and sadness and all the rest will keep happening just as rain and floods and earhtquakes will keep happening. But none of it is personal! It's life lifeing.

What things are you certain you have control over? What things do you make happen? Investigate and see if "you" are doing them or if they just happen. Don't think it. LOOK

It'll take about a half hour to copy all this to the posting area with the formatting

If doing it that way takes you too long maybe just keep writing here. Just make sure you always, always, always copy the text before you press submit or preview or any other button. That's what I do. I had to learn the hard way.

All your guidance is gratefully reviewed every day and applied with new resolve

And your resolve is much appreciated too. Just remember I'm not a teacher on any level. Just a glorifed sign-post. Your own experience is the important thing. Because the truth is there already. NOW! Just as it is. Your direct experience as mundane as it may seem is the ultimate reality and cannot be denied. So don't depend on me or my questions. just look.

Much love to you.
I hope pain is getting better
Silvia xxx

[charlieaa]

Hello Silvia,

I spent most of the day on this - lots of LOOKING, exploring - writing; and re-writing because 110% honesty seems elusive. AND, accordingly, I didn't finish. Will continue tomorrow.

What feelings arise when you read the first list?

First reaction: "I'm sick of me and my relentless stories!!"

How are they "your" relentless stories? First of all if they were yours how comes you are powerless to stop them? How comes they are out of "your" control?

The "me" here was intended to convey seeing the illusion of "me." Now, what is seen further is "I'm" and the question arises, "who is this I?" Again, now seen as a myth. Also, now is noticed the label "sick."

"Try this now. Drop the labels and just be with the sensations in the body. Meet the sensations with kindness and openness. What happens? "

As I re-read this, the "sick" feeling re-arises and is seen as just an experience of a set of habitual sensations "I've" memorized as unpleasant. With kindness and openness, the "sick" unpleasant sensations ease momentarily - then labels start up again - and then they are again seen as just arising. There doesn't seem to be any control.

Second of all, do you make the stories happen? Look at this very carefully. Is there a you making them happen or do they just arise? And do they arise out of thin air or do they arise in dependence of something? Examine this. NOT the content of the story but the acutal process. Look for a habitual story you identify with. Ignore the tale it tells and just watch how it happens, then explain it to me.

The stories seem to automatically arise in situations - but the situations and the stories change constantly with what looks like infinite variations. Some recurring situations elicit the same habitual stories. (A stubbed toe usually results in an immediate, familiar curse and label of "my stupidity/clumsiness" or somesuch.)

Right now, it looks like all/most? consciousness is situational with thoughts/stories arising like ripples in a pond. The hook is that the "I" takes it personally.

There is an illusion of guiding, programming thoughts but that illusion seems to be just another assumption-thought-thing.

2nd: There's a "me" in there desperate to run the show - make judgements - solve (imagined?) problems

There is no you either desperate or not desperate to run anything. Because there is no you. Control is part of the illusion and the desire for control is part of the illusion. Do you agree? don't say yes, because you think is the right answer.

I agree more and more often - not just because it's the right answer, but because today especially the experience of seeing the "me" illusion is more evident. During last hour's trip to the pharmacy, there arose the usual rehearsing of the conversation with the pharmacist, loaded with labels and judgements of what were the proper things to say for "me" to get what "I" want. Then, unbidden, came the sense that "I'm not in control - they'll take care of this." Now, as I write, there is a remembrance/feeling that that was just some kind of acceptance trip and "I'll accept whatever they come up with." But now with exploring further, it is seen that if there was something to be corrected, optimized, it would have happened anyway without "my" trying to pre-control the outcome.

What feelings arise when you read the second one?
It's freer, more space, more objective, much less intense. Doesn't have to be right/correct. "

Can you see that everything you wrote is happening without a you making it happen? And can you see how freeing that is? Anger arises and then goes away. A thought arises and then goes away. A sound , a smell, a taste. It all happens without you. And none of it is personal. When you don't get caught in the story of "me" you see everything as another movement of life lifeing. And it's all inter-connected and nothing is separate.

Yes, Silvia. I am seeing all that. I've been laying in bed most of the day (napping, feeling tiredness and mouth sensations) and watching the thought-stream - just observing. The labels and judgements keep arising but more and more there seems to be a "forgetting" to take them personally. And the seeing of life lifeing is popping up now and then.

An important seeing is emerging characterized by the words "impersonal" and "on auto-pilot."

Who says the seeing important? What does that label IMPORTANT mean?

It is now seen that No-One says seeing is important or anything. It was a thought that arose and was taken personally. "IMPORTANT" feels like an there was a passing expectation that "now 'I'm' getting somewhere" and found its way into print.

Could you explain a bit what you mean by auto-pilot?

Can you see that everything you wrote is happening without a you making it happen? And can you see how freeing that is? Anger arises and then goes away. A thought arises and then goes away. A sound , a smell, a taste. It all happens without you. And none of it is personal. When you don't get caught in the story of "me" you see everything as another movement of life lifeing.

By "Auto-Pilot": was meant "everything is happening without a "me" making it happen and all of your quote above. I steer away from pre-destination/robot-like existence and such because those are labels loaded with other labels and since "I don't know sh*t", it's really moot.

Which of these lists feels truer

Of course, the 2nd.

Why of course?

?
The first answer that comes is that a feeling of freedom and spaciousness is preferable to one of "sick of me, me, me." But, the answer now seems to be whatever feelings arise - sensations - are welcomed with kindness and openness. But, Silvia, it's a work in progress.

The last couple of days, thoughts and, to some extent conversations, have been screened to remove the "I." It's a bit awkward. But, you indicated - and it seems to be working - that seeing thru the "I" illusion will accelerate if correspondence from here - and in everyday activities - needs this. Many other posts don't do this. Is it progressing as you instructed?

When did I instruct you to do this? I just asked you to do an exercise with a list you wrote to help you move away from the story the thoughts tell. I didn't say that from now on you must not use the word I or speak only in the impersonal. If you find it helps, by all means do it, but I'm concerned it might become a purely mental exercise. If the main belief remains unchallenged then talking as if there is no you won't make any difference.

Yes.

Is Charlie the thinker, the source of emotions?

No, mostly.

Ok, what thoughts or emotions do you make happen? And how do you do that?

New answer comes: They just arise - in situations - by habit and, as you ask the question "how?", no answer comes up. No "you", no way to make emotions. "I" can have the illusion that I create the situations, therefore the emotions, but that's not true either. Situations just seem to come up, be, just are.

Is he the do-er?; The maker of decisions?; The payer of attention?

Sometimes it appears as if there are situations where answers to these 3 questions seem to be yes. e.g., while typing these answers, there's a critical faculty operating that seems to be "controlled" by an editing function. The words/ideas are being fashioned/shaped to make the most honest and clear sense to you.

Are you this critical faculty or editing function? The fashioner or shaper ideas?

It feels like this body/mind is editing in response to the situation it's in at the moment and it seems like its done it a lot before. The control over the "functions" is seen to be illusory - even tho there arises a fleeting "I" that wants to take credit. Then, that is seen thru.

Examine closely what happens when you answer the questions. This is a very good area to explore.

"What happens when. . .": Silvia, sometimes, there is felt a lingering holding back - then another looking, explore, and it's gone - the spaciousness, impersonal sense returns. (?:Is impersonal always there, just forgotten, overwhelmed by the "I Thoughts"?) As we continue, the sense of freedom comes more often.

Another good question is, if there is no you, what is it that is seeking and looking for answers? ;-) Explore!

Oh My!! What a good question! The immediate, knee-jerk reaction is "how did I ever get started seeking? and does Life Lifeing really have some kind of cosmic meaning? and a purpose for "me"?" Then, 1) look at that reaction - with the labels and assumptions and clarity arises: no you again; 2) "what is seeking": the "right" answer is "no you", again. But it's not honestly 110% felt yet. Am taking this question to bed. Walk tomorrow early - feel sensations esp those arising from this question. Take your quote below with me this time!

+Sit with them for a while or go for a walk. And when you answer do so from your own experience and with 110% honesty. I cannot emphasize that enough. + Go for a walk and do this with all your bodily sensations. As you walk, feel the air, listen to sounds, feel the sensations in your feet, your legs, your arms.. Labelling (thoughts) will naturally keep happening, just watch it happening and keep coming back to the pure raw sensations in the body.

Gotta go to bed now.

Good Morning to You - "I" wish you a splendid day! Thank you.

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hello dear Charlie,

I hope you're having a good day.

I can see you're really looking and seeing is starting to break through the illusion.

110% honesty seems elusive

What seems to be getting in the way of honesty?

You sound pretty honest to me in but it seems to be a recurrent theme in your answers.

The "me" here was intended to convey seeing the illusion of "me." Now, what is seen further is "I'm" and the question arises, "who is this I?" Again, now seen as a myth. Also, now is noticed the label "sick."

Instead of Who is this I, consider this; What is this I?

We are looking behind the labels to see if there is really a separate I running the show. Having said that being sick of me and the stories that go with it is a very good symptom Charlie. It means you're fed up with the lie. There is a readiness to break through the illusion. And that is a very important condition for seeing.
I read this quote today and find it quite appropriate.

Unless you make tremendous efforts, you will not be convinced that
effort will take you nowhere....
The self is so self-confident that unless it is totally discouraged it will not give up...
Mere verbal conviction is not enough....
Hard facts alone can show the absolute nothingness of the self-image....

~Nisargadatta Maharaj

I'll take a guess that all your life has been a tremendous effort to seek the truth. It's time now to give up and be discouraged. You will never get enlightened. Because there is no you. Never was. It's illusion. A mind trick. Just look at the facts and the simple truth will arise all on its own.

The stories seem to automatically arise in situations - but the situations and the stories change constantly with what looks like infinite variations. Some recurring situations elicit the same habitual stories. (A stubbed toe usually results in an immediate, familiar curse and label of "my stupidity/clumsiness" or somesuch.)

Right now, it looks like all/most? consciousness is situational with thoughts/stories arising like ripples in a pond. The hook is that the "I" takes it personally.

There is an illusion of guiding, programming thoughts but that illusion seems to be just another assumption-thought-thing.

Can you choose your thoughts? Yes or No

But, Silvia, it's a work in progress.

Do you know this to be true? It's easier than the mind wants to think.

Oh My!! What a good question! The immediate, knee-jerk reaction is "how did I ever get started seeking? and does Life Lifeing really have some kind of cosmic meaning? and a purpose for "me"?" Then, 1) look at that reaction - with the labels and assumptions and clarity arises: no you again; 2) "what is seeking": the "right" answer is "no you", again. But it's not honestly 110% felt yet. Am taking this question to bed. Walk tomorrow early - feel sensations esp those arising from this question. Take your quote below with me this time!

This was really good noticing. You're now starting to really look behind the assumptions and labels that previously went unquestioned. When you do that truth will out. It cannot be any other way.

I'll leave it here for now. Only a couple of questions for you to answer since you're still investigating from the last post. But don't stress yourself out. Just read them and see what triggers.

Much love
Silvia x

[charlieaa]

Good afternoon (evening), Silvia;

I just rcvd your post from today - I'll answer it after this one - since it's short, we'll be caught up. But, the 2nd half of yesterday's brought stuff up that I feel a need to address with you first. So, some of this may be a bit redundant but here goes, anyway. Oh yes, I feel [label coming up:] elated to read your uplifting post just now.

Lots of looking/exploring on this morning's walk and in finishing this post.

How about: "Is charlie the answerer of these questions?" or are they just arising to the level of awareness of this body/mind/thought-stream? There is a strong felt sense that they need to marinate some more. It's a pleasant "mulling," tho.

So, is he? Are they? Keep exploring. I'm glad it's pleasant, but this is not about mulling things over or letting them marinate like chicken, it's about looking from moment to moment, how everything happens. Just LOOK. How are these questions getting answered? Where do the answers come from?

With each days' looking, exploring, I see that many of my prior questions are obsolete. The "charlie answerer" does not exist. The answers seem to come spontaneously - they are just thoughts, themselves - the thoughts are real but, the content of the thoughts - the "answers" just arise and pass.

Big question on "seeing": the question arises - how to go about seeing? Elena has written "dig." How? With what faculty? Is it asking the question with the mind, but not trying to answer with the mind? Maybe just sit with the question and trust?

I think you're getting a bit lost in words here. How to go about seeing? My question would be, how do you stop seeing from happening? Try it. can you stop seeing? Even if you close your eyes there is still seeing. When a thought happens can you stop seeing that a thought has happened? When you realise your wallet is empty and dollar-less, how does that happen? Well, you just look and see that is empty.

Yes, that is very helpful.

Is there a difference between pain & suffering? Is it possible for it to be there pain but not suffering?

Yes - there seems to have been experiences when what's called "pain" just another sensation UNTIL it's named/labeled. More below.

Explore ALL sensations in this way. Have a look around your room and watch the labelling machine we call mind in action. Then drop the labels. What happens when you look at "things" and see the "thing" instead of the mental label. Go for a walk and do this with all your bodily sensations. As you walk, feel the air, listen to sounds, feel the sensations in your feet, your legs, your arms.. Labelling (thoughts) will naturally keep happening, just watch it happening and keep coming back to the pure raw sensations in the body.

Yes! In process all day as much as is remembered - more frequently.

A sensation, if anything. Or, nothing - pain just is.

Pain just is, or sensation just is?

Oh yes, "pain" is also a label; at least that's how it seems - for me, it's a loaded term, personalized - "suffering" is built in. "Sensation" is a neutral term to me, impersonal and it describes a real experience that arises.

a number of the judging streams of thought were caught, aborted.

And how do you do that?

since in order to see the labeling, and the process has to be interrupted, what intervening reflection can restore the big picture/equanimity or is the discomfort just to be seen as more sensation(s)?

Ok, there's a lack of clarity here. Firstly the first statement is not true. In order to see the labelling you don't have to do anything because it just happens. How do you make seeing the computer in front of you happen??? Well you don't! It's just happening!

Yes - the "aborting" was just another new thought arising taking the place of the prior thought. Now I see that even the thought that an aborting had taken place is yet another label.

Secondly we are not aiming here for equanimity. True equanimity is a by-product of seeing the truth of the way things are, not a goal, and it's not what you think it is.
Thirdly this is not about having the right thoughts or the right reflections, this is about looking at what happens from moment to moment just as it is.

So there is discomfort, what does the label discomfort point to? Do you think this is about making things like "discomfort" go away? And what, achieve an inperturbable state of mind where nothing bothers you ever again? Well, it ain't like that mate. Discomfort and pain and sadness and all the rest will keep happening just as rain and floods and earhtquakes will keep happening. But none of it is personal! It's life lifeing.

I reviewed my expectations we started with - esp: "* Accept the world as it comes at me." I now see that hidden in the label "Accept" is what you refer to: "...an inperturbable state of mind where nothing bothers you ever again? " Also, "...as it comes at me." I now ask: what is this "it?" And: "at me?" - at who??

This morning the dogs barked and the traffic roared by and "I was perturbed." (Could hardly hear LU Audios on the iPod.) Then, up came the remembrance of "Well, it ain't like that mate. . ." So, it occurred to look at the sensations of "perturbation." Labels arose and confusion reigned at times; another label; more looking, looking. At times, I try to localize a sensation. Often that leads to naming it - another label. Kinda lost here - so, what is arising now is "just be with it."

Silvia, I just got back from a lunch with a couple of my Buddhist/political buddies. In our animated conversations, I experienced only an infrequent awareness of the arising of the many labels and sensations. I was mostly absorbed in the stories of charlie. At least, at home now, that is seen clearly. The question/label comes to mind: "any progress?" But, then, "WHO is progressing?" and this feeling of disappointment is just sensations. Then your earlier reminder:

"Be naked with things as they are. If you feel a bit (or very) vulnerable then you're doing it right."

OK, then.


charlie