The Gate

Hello,

My name is Mark. I have believed in countless things over the years in seeking. It wasn't until recently that I discovered all my seeking was belief-making, and that all of that seeking was circular. I am ready to know exactly what is going on, in truth or reality or whatever "it" is, and would greatly appreciate guidance.

Currently I think I have a conceptual understanding of self, that self is a thought, has no owner, has no controller, really is nothing, etc... I understand this but I don't experience this. There is so much to be said about self but all of the saying is only saying. I guess I've finally come to the point where saying is seen for what it is, not knowing. I want to know.

I will share more about my background if my guide-to-be feels it will be helpful. At this point I am not sure that recounting my personal spiritual history will do anything other than support a false self. That being said, I am 100% open to this process and excited to get started. Getting to the bottom of this self business is my primary concern in life today. I am ecstatic to know of this forum and have the chance to utilize the guidance of anyone willing to help. I am not sure what to write in this first post really, so I guess to sum up:

I need a little help. I have expectations that need destroying, beliefs that need unmaking, and a desire for truth that will not quit. Please help me get started.

Thank you very much and hope to hear from you soon.

Mark

Hello, Mark.

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed. I will guide you if you like.

There are a few formalities to take care of. If you haven't already, please read the Disclaimer and watch the short video on the LU home page.

There are also a few standard ground rules before we start. Please confirm that you agree.

1. You agree to post at least once a day, time permitting. (If you can't respond fully on a given day, a few words to let me know you're still engaged would be appreciated.)

2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers. (I'm here to guide, not to teach.)

3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honesty.

4. And when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read this article for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really commit to begin looking for this separate self, this "I"; look for what is the experience throughout the day as this looking happens. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's fine to continue that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

And here are a couple of notes about posting in this forum.

1. Please learn to use the quote function. There are instructions in this post.

2. The forum can log you out without warning. If you're typing a post directly in the edit box here, and you get logged out before you click Submit, your words can get lost. There are two ways to avoid this. One, use the Preview button frequently. That will keep you logged in. Or two, type your responses in a separate program like Notepad first, then copy and paste them into the forum. (But that way you don't get to use the quote function and have to use BBCode to highlight quotes.)

We can get started as soon as you confirm that you've seen all the above and agree to it.

With Love,
Steve

There are a few formalities to take care of. If you haven't already, please read the Disclaimer and watch the short video on the LU home page.

Done

There are also a few standard ground rules before we start. Please confirm that you agree.

1. You agree to post at least once a day, time permitting. (If you can't respond fully on a given day, a few words to let me know you're still engaged would be appreciated.)

2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers. (I'm here to guide, not to teach.)

3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honesty.

4. And when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read this article for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really commit to begin looking for this separate self, this "I"; look for what is the experience throughout the day as this looking happens. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's fine to continue that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

I agree 110%

Thank you for engaging Steve. Ready when you are.

Mark

Hi, Mark.

I have expectations that need destroying, beliefs that need unmaking, and a desire for truth that will not quit.

This sounds like an ideal starting point!

Let's start with a summary of what you're looking for and what you expect to find.

What do you expect from this conversation?

What is it that you are searching for?

How will you know that you found it?

With Love,
Steve

What do you expect from this conversation?

I expect something different than previous experience. I think that our dialogue will help focus attention on what is of real importance, in reference to my seeking. There is a feeling or thought of "new" that seems to result from committing to the process. Prior to this I have been referencing parts of numerous teachings, trying to reconcile various others' experience into one of my own. I expect to stop doing this.

I also feel that it will be helpful to have a guide to help me realize when "me" is operating. In my experience it seems like "me" disguises itself over and over again, pretending to be whatever teaching I'm considering. "Me" pretends to be "no me". I guess I'm expecting a whip to bring me back to the real pursuit when I can't see that I'm off track.

What is it that you are searching for?

I am searching for truth. All my searching has been focused on "better" up till recently. I always wanted to feel better, be better. But I never did. Now it is different. I have no interest in better. I have no interest in most things that once had interest. I am searching for true experience. I see other people as foreign to me. There is separation. There is no understanding. They are neither what they used to be nor anything else I can call real. I wish to understand the real nature of existence. Mostly i think, I am searching for the way to live direct experience. Currently I feel that I can talk myself into "no self" or direct experience. But it seems like belief because it needs effort to exist in my experience. I have to go through a process to pull my awareness out of "me". I hope to find an absolute break from illusion.

How will you know that you found it?

I expect that when I've found it there will be no question or doubt. This is based on what I've read. This is what I want. I'm tired of manufacturing reality and wish to experience it directly, without any need for concepts to support it. I really don't know how I will know when it is found. Since it is something I've never experienced I conceptually understand that I don't and can't know what it is. But expectations still exist.

I also see that there is expectation in the form of failure. "Am I doing this right? What should I be experiencing?" It is very easy to feel lost. Then my mind looks toward the future and how it relates to "I". What will I do next, how will this this be for me, etc... I see they are thoughts. I see there is only a thought of I. But it is not lasting. I find myself not knowing what to write. I question everything that I right. There is fear that I'm absolutely insane and will never ACHIEVE what I"m seeking. Others will, I won't. Even reading my last post I can see that I may not even know how to access honesty. That is probably where I need to focus now. I am frustrated being here, stuck in the same place it seems I've always been.

Moving forward I think it may be best for me to write without reviewing. It seems like reviewing the words I write reshape them and include the self more. What do you think?

Hi, Mark.

All my searching has been focused on "better" up till recently. I always wanted to feel better, be better. But I never did. Now it is different. I have no interest in better. I have no interest in most things that once had interest. I am searching for true experience.

Excellent intention! This is an important distinction to perceive.

I hope to find an absolute break from illusion.

If you mean that you hope the illusion-manufacturing processes will stop cold, that would be unrealistic. The habitual thought patterns of decades don't just evaporate in a flash. We see through them; we stop believing them; their power to entangle disappears and they fade.

I also see that there is expectation in the form of failure. "Am I doing this right? What should I be experiencing?" It is very easy to feel lost. Then my mind looks toward the future and how it relates to "I". What will I do next, how will this this be for me, etc... I see they are thoughts. I see there is only a thought of I.

Nicely noticed. This is a good beginning.

There is no right or wrong way for this to unfold, no should or shouldn't. Each individual is unique. Your role is simply to notice what's actually happening and report it as honestly as possible.

Now that your expectations are out in the open, I ask you to forget them for now. We may or may not revisit some of them later. Right now we're looking for anticipation without expectations.

Observe and report what comes up when you read the following:

There is no separate self called "you" in the real world. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. It's an illuson, this "you" who you think you are. It can't be found anywhere in the real world, except as a thought.

Take those statements inside and tell me what you see.

What physical sensations do you notice?

What thoughts do you notice?

What feelings do you notice?

With Love,
Steve

I’ve had an unusual day. After my last post I looked for a while. Then I read some of the Gatecrashers book. Then looked for a while. I came across a feeling of emptiness. It felt like no-self might feel. Then I had a thought about work tomorrow, one that would usually create stress/anxiety. I then thought “what would be effected by this happening at work? “ . Then emptiness. It isn’t emptiness like I ever thought of emptiness before. It’s really like just no foundation being there. Then came the thought of foundation falling away gradually after no-self realization. Without self it seemed like I literally can’t experience fear in the same way I used to. There is just an emptiness there that doesn’t care what happens. It can’t worry about what happens. It can’t do anything.

So this is certainly a curve ball that was unexpected. I’ve been dedicated to this thing very intensely for the past few weeks, but I did not expect this stangeness. I literally don’t know if I have seen through the illusion or not. I doesn’t make sense to try and answer that question. I feel that I should just look more and let things play out. Maybe I’m being tricked by mind, or maybe this is a feeling that will fade like all others.

I wanted to share that before answering your questions. Here is what I have now, but it feels weird. It feels like there is no reason to imagine these things, because self seems unidentified with anyway. I actually feel silly writing all this. There’s a thought of “you are being stupid, not seeing the point. Self is intact, running the show.” But I see that as a thought. I don’t “feel” it as a directive. I don’t know. I feel that tomorrow I may have a completely different experience and have much more to say, or maybe even in the next instant. This is my experience now.

There is no separate self called "you" in the real world. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. It's an illuson, this "you" who you think you are. It can't be found anywhere in the real world, except as a thought.

There is no me. There is no me that doesn’t want to respond to this now or that does. There is no me typing. What is it that is typing? I understand there is no me in the real world. I understand that there are thoughts of me, I experience thoughts that are assumptions of what other people’s thoughts are about me. That means nothing. Really only that there are thoughts occurring
I understand this. No me thinking. What is left to describe. Who is coming to this conclusion now? What decides I’m not finished yet? Finished is the actual beginning. I’m not sure there is a sense of self anymore.

There is no separate self called "you" in the real world. No "you" thinking your thoughts. No "you" living your life. It's an illuson, this "you" who you think you are. It can't be found anywhere in the real world, except as a thought.

Take those statements inside and tell me what you see.

What physical sensations do you notice?

What thoughts do you notice?

What feelings do you notice?

I feel free. I feel very normal except for a loss of mental weight. I wonder if this can persist in tomorrow’s world, when I’m sitting in a cubicle doing my job which I have found repulsive. How will I feel then? I don’t know. Physically, there is calm. I can’t identify a sensation outside of common sensation (feeling of chair, palms on laptop, etc…) Maybe this is because I’ve experienced similar exercises and the sensational reactions have been played out. I don’t know. There's a thought of not having enough to report back. There is thought of messing this up. There is thought of your disappointment. There is thought that never ends. There is thought of not caring for thought. Thoughts of fear and needing to do something to cling to whatever is happening. The volume is turned down though. They aren't loud enough to be considered with more thought. I don't know how to determine which thoughts to report. Everything is so fleeting. Maybe this is good.

I will come back to these questions in the morning and see what occurs then. Definitely would appreciate your feedback on the above. Just what we have done so far, whatever is happening, seems to be ungluing self already so thank you! What do you think?

Mark

Hi, Mark.

I came across a feeling of emptiness. It felt like no-self might feel.

Maybe I’m being tricked by mind, or maybe this is a feeling that will fade like all others.

It's very important to remember that what we're looking for here is not a feeling. We're looking to see through the illusion of a separate self, to see it so clearly that it no longer has any power. As you obviously know, feelings come and feelings go. We're not looking for a permanent feeling because there is no such thing. All feelings are impermanent. Seeing through the illusion is permanent.

Of course there's nothing wrong with feelings. Enjoy them! But don't look there for verification.

That said, there is evidence of movement in what you're reporting. Time to dig in!

You've reported many thoughts. A lot of them include the word "I": "I see." "I feel." "I don't know."

To what does this word "I" refer? When you really look, do you find an "I" anywhere? Really look! Is there an "I"? What in direct experience does that word actually refer to?

Here are a few exercises to help clarify.

Seeing: "I am seeing" or "Seeing is happening." Which is true in direct experience? Really look. Which is true?

Hearing: "I am hearing" or "Hearing is happening." Look! Which is true?

Continue with the other senses.

Feeling: "I feel fear" or "There is a feeling of fear happening." Look at direct experience. Which is true?

Thoughts: You are a keen observer of thoughts. You watch them come and go. Is there an "I" thinking the thoughts? Or are there just thoughts, coming and going? Can you control the thoughts? If you were the thinker, wouldn't you be able to control them?

I feel that I should just look more and let things play out.

You've given yourself good advice there, and I've given you a lot to look at because I feel you can use it effectively. There's no rush. Sit with this. Answer a few points at a time or whatever feels comfortable. Just be sure to look directly at the experience and see for yourself what's true.

With Love,
Steve

Thank you very much Steve. There is no rush. Again, very thankful for your guidance!

Thoughts: You are a keen observer of thoughts. You watch them come and go. Is there an "I" thinking the thoughts? Or are there just thoughts, coming and going? Can you control the thoughts? If you were the thinker, wouldn't you be able to control them?

Hi Steve,

Body appears to act on its own in some cases. It performs functions that seem to be conditioned (washing hands, doing things that are not in direct awareness). What happens when looking now, not asking “how did that just happen”?. Rather, “what is happening?”. There is watching. Thought arises. Body executes thought’s command. The mistake in this case may be thought acting as self. Thought thinks it is self. Thought cannot think. Thought comes from nowhere, there is a misconstruing of thought as self. But self still thinks it is prior to thought. If self is thought, thought cannot think, self cannot think. Self is a thought. Self is a thought tied to other thoughts. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.

There is a thought of “I”. That is all “I” is in direct experience. The thought of “I” immediately assumes itself as self when attention is not directly focused on it. Huge identification with “I”. Maybe let “I” be, it is just a thought. I have been trying to locate “I” or self. It occurs that there is no “I” to be looking for an “I”. Also, there is no “I” to be found. Only a thought of “I”. So “I” is seen as thought, but “I” is not known to be thought. More to update this evening.

Mark

Hi, Mark. You're glimpsing the mechanics of the illusion. Stick with it, always remembering to focus on what's happening now in direct experience: perceptions, thoughts, feelings. When you try to analyze the content of thoughts, the result is often confusion.

Thought thinks it is self. Thought cannot think. Thought comes from nowhere, there is a misconstruing of thought as self. But self still thinks it is prior to thought.

Who is misconstruing thought as self? What does that refer to in experience?

What do you mean by a self that "thinks it is prior to thought"? What does that refer to? Is anything there?

Thought cannot think.

Right! Can thought do anything at all? Can thought raise your arm? Can thought walk you? Can it drive your car?

The thought of “I” immediately assumes itself as self when attention is not directly focused on it.

What does this mean? If thought cannot do anything, how can it assume?

Huge identification with “I”.

Who or what is identifying with "I"? Deconstruct what it means when you say that. What in direct experience are you referring to? Perceptions, feelings, thoughts.

Body appears to act on its own in some cases. It performs functions that seem to be conditioned (washing hands, doing things that are not in direct awareness).

In what cases does the body not act on its own? Can you find a genuine example?

Try this: Hold your hand a few inches above your leg. (Either hand and leg will do.) Say to yourself, "I'm going to tap my leg sometime in the next 30 seconds." Watch to see what heppens. Observe whether or not thinking "Tap now!" has any effect. Notice exactly what happens when the hand does tap the leg (or if it doesn't).

Extend this noticing to decisions throughout the day. When you go into the kitchen to get a cold drink, what caused you to get up? Do you notice an actual cause or simply a sequence of events -- feelings, thoughts, movements? When you stand at the refrigerator, what happens at the point when you reach for water, juice, or lemonade? Is there a "you" who made a decision? Or do you simply notice that your hand reached for one or the other?

Keep it up! The intensity of your engagement is great.

With Love,
Steve

Try this: Hold your hand a few inches above your leg. (Either hand and leg will do.) Say to yourself, "I'm going to tap my leg sometime in the next 30 seconds." Watch to see what heppens. Observe whether or not thinking "Tap now!" has any effect. Notice exactly what happens when the hand does tap the leg (or if it doesn't).

Initial trial: nothing happened. There is no correlation between "tap now!" and tapping. When I say to myself "tap now" nothing happens. When the hand does tap it seems like there something commanding it (this is outside the 30 seconds). There is a thought that there is something else that is giving the 'actual' command to tap. The thought seems to point to something that has a feeling of "come on, you know I'm here and I'm real and I'm you". Kinda funny. I will spend more time on this today.

Your responses are extremely helpful in keeping momentum and I can't wait to jump into them and report what is found.

Extend this noticing to decisions throughout the day. When you go into the kitchen to get a cold drink, what caused you to get up? Do you notice an actual cause or simply a sequence of events -- feelings, thoughts, movements? When you stand at the refrigerator, what happens at the point when you reach for water, juice, or lemonade? Is there a "you" who made a decision? Or do you simply notice that your hand reached for one or the other?

\

I was standing in my shower. It is routine for me to reach for a wash cloth at this point. There is standing, water contacting body, and looking. I want to know what decides to reach for the wash cloth (“I” here is for communication purposes. “I” don’t know what wants to know). Pre-assumption is thoughts cause body to move. No, there are some thoughts, but they are seen and thin out. No thought is doing anything. “Reach for wash cloth” does nothing. Standing, looking. Next, there is a sensation in the body, at first it seems even like a feeling. There is pulling sensation toward the wash cloth. There is a thought that body movement is caused by conditioning. There is a thought that feeling moves the body, but then that feeling thought of is actually body sensation. Watching continues, no movement toward the wash cloth. Pulling sensation diminishes and is gone. What decides to reach for wash cloth? Still watching, not moving. Then hand moves toward wash cloth. Hand comes back to body, still looking. Nothing. Hand moves toward wash cloth. Nothing, hand moves back. Hand moves toward wash cloth, grabs it, applies soap, and washes body. There is absolutely nothing that causes body to grab washcloth and bathe.