Looking for a guide

[Brad]

I would greatly appreciate anyone willing to spend their time to help me. I believe there is no self intellectually, but do not really know it/live it in my experience. I have tried many times to find the self and can't find it. However, my analytical mind won't accept this as proof. If I lose my car keys and can't find them, I don't just accept that as proof that they never existed. I know they are out there somewhere. I want to know the truth. Thank you in advance to anyone interested in the challenge of helping me (my self is very strong and clever).

Brad

[Behzad]

Hello Brad,

Welcome. I can guide you if it`s okej for you?

There are a few ground rules - the usual - please respond to confirm:
1. You agree to post at least once a day, time permitting. 
2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers.
3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honestly and answer from what you see,
4. and when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And please, try to keep the language as simple as possible, because English is my second language. If this is fine with you, we can start the process.

My first question for you is, how much do you want the truth?

Love
Behzad

[Brad]

HI Behzad,

Thank you very much for guiding me. I am familiar with the ground rules and I accept them.

How much do I want the truth? That is a question I have asked myself many times. I think I want the truth very badly. I say "I think" because I have tried so hard to realize it and continue to seek truth, but sometime I do wonder if I'm just a tourist. When I am looking for truth I don't have direct experience of resistance. I do think it is there though, it's just in the form of distraction. I find all kinds of other thoughts popping up that make it difficult to concentrate on seeing truth. I think it is the "I" working its clever tricks and it has been doing an outstanding job of fooling me so far.

To answer your question, I do want to know the truth and think that if I am held accountable to someone (you) for my results, then it may help me push through "my" tricks.

Thank you,

Brad

[Behzad]

Sounds good Brad. So lets give it a shot and see what happens.

The analogy you said with the car keys sounds right if you have something and then loose it. Ofcourse it must be somewhere, because you have seen it, felt it before. But what about if you never had any car keys from the begining (any I/Me) in youre life. You have never had a driving licens, you have never ever been driving a car before. But you had forgotten that. You have been trusting what others have been saying to you, what they have taught you, you have been looking at the majority of the people on earth and trusted in what they think is real. And they have been saying that there is a car key that you have lost and you have to find it, it must be somwhere in the world.

And if someone would come and say to you "my dear frieand, you have lost youre car keys, go and find it, it must be somewhere" and if you start to seek for the car key will you be able to find it, if you never have had a car key before?

I am that stranger that just reminds you that you have never had a car key from the begining. But beliving me will not make any difference. Then there is just another belief that you have picked up and that want make any change. That wich makes the change is when YOU see whats true and whats not. So this is all about looking, just looking to see if there ever have been any I/Me here. I will point you so this can be seen, but the actual seeing i cant do for you. That one you have to do youreself.

So let get started. Start to answer these 3 questions please.

So, What are your expectations for liberation?
How will this feel?
How will this change you?

If you have somewhere where you maintain youre expectations, then I want you to look there and bring out every single one of them.

Take care
Behzad

[Brad]

Hi Behzad. You make a good point about the car keys. It's one thing to look for something I have seen, and another to look for something I haven't seen.

My expectations are only a wild guess based on things I have read in others' descriptions of liberation. My guess is that since I will know there is no "me", things and thoughts will no longer be associated with or attached to "me". I do not expect any joy or bliss from it, or even to feel good.

I think I will feel apathetic and will lose interest in most of the things I find interesting now. This sounds scary to me now, but if the time comes when there isn't a desire for those things, then I won't care. I expect that I may run into some feelings of depression along the way as well.

The major change I expect is that instead of thinking of "me" being in the world, it will be a character in a video movie just playing out a role. Once this is understood, I will no longer try to change the movie's script. Beyond that, it's a mystery to me.

Thanks,

Brad

[Behzad]

My expectations are only a wild guess based on things I have read in others' descriptions of liberation.

Good, so are youre expectations yours?
Are they coming originally from you?

And

if this no self stuff have never been seen before in youre case, because you said before "I believe there is no self intellectually, but do not really know it/live it in my experience" can you know with 120% certainty how it will feel like, look like and what changes may appear out of this seeing?

[Brad]

These expectation feel like they are originally coming from me, so they do feel like they are mine.

I cannot know with any certainty how it will feel, look, or what changes may take place. I only have thoughts about it, which in my direct experience, occur to me as my thoughts.

[Behzad]

These expectation feel like they are originally coming from me, so they do feel like they are mine.

Yes, it may feel like its yours and it may look like they are originally coming from you BUT were those thoughts/expectations in youre head so to speak before you ever heard anything about liberation/enlightenment? Before you stepped into spirituality, where the expectations about how this will look like/feel like already in the mind without you being aware fo them?

If the thoughts have not been in you from the beginning then they cant come originally from you, right? Then they cant even be yours to begin with.

But it must have comed from somewhere?
So from where has all expectations comed?

I cannot know with any certainty how it will feel, look, or what changes may take place. I only have thoughts about it, which in my direct experience, occur to me as my thoughts.

Nice, you can let them go then. They are not needed. Considering that you cant know with certainty how this would feel, look like or what changes may take place then they are not really needed. We dont want to assume if there is a me or not. We want 120% certainty if there is any I/Me here or not.

This is simply about looking. You dont need any expectation to be able to look. Looking is happening wether there is expectations or not. So looking/seeing doesnt depend on the expectations. But looking whitout expectations makes the looking clearer and what needs to be seen gets seen much easier.

[Brad]

Yes, it may feel like its yours and it may look like they are originally coming from you BUT were those thoughts/expectations in youre head so to speak before you ever heard anything about liberation/enlightenment?

No.

Before you stepped into spirituality, where the expectations about how this will look like/feel like already in the mind without you being aware fo them?

No.

If the thoughts have not been in you from the beginning then they cant come originally from you, right? Then they cant even be yours to begin with.

The still seem like they come from me, even though they weren't there from the beginning. I created them, so they seem like they originated with me.

So from where has all expectations comed?

My mind took information I have learned and created them based on that information.

I don't have a problem with letting go of my expectations. They were just speculation to begin with.

[Behzad]

My mind took information I have learned and created them based on that information.

I don't have a problem with letting go of my expectations. They were just speculation to begin with.

We will come back to if the thoughts/expectations are yours later. We will check that out. But for now its good that you are ready to let the expectations be. So we can take a real, honest look and see if there is an I/Me here.


So what does the word I point to Brad? Where is it?
Give me the exact location for it?

First answer these 3 questions, when you have answered these 3 questions then finish with the last questions. Dont even look at the last questions before you have answered these 3 above.

Now that you probably have pointed out where the I/Me is take a look at the last questions.

Can you see the I/Me with the eyes? Is it in youre physical reality?

Take youre time....

[Brad]

The word I points to my body, which is the sum of all my parts. I can't pinpoint the exact location because it is my whole body. I realize that if I had an arm amputated, I am not the arm and me, but it seems like everything left that is intact is still me.

I can see most of my body with my eyes. It is in my physical reality.

[Behzad]

The word I points to my body, which is the sum of all my parts. I can't pinpoint the exact location because it is my whole body. I realize that if I had an arm amputated, I am not the arm and me, but it seems like everything left that is intact is still me.

Cool, so the word I points to the sum of all youre body parts. If we keep amputating the rest of youre body, youre legs, ears, fingers, hands and so on, will youre sense of self become less or diminishied? Will we be able to find a Me anywhere?

You say that you cant pinpoint the exact location of the I/Me. How come? How come you can pinpoint the exact location of every body part except the I/Me? You have no problems to see youre hands, feet, arms, legs etc. Why is it only a problem to pinpoint the I/Me? You know where the heart is, dont you? You know where the brain is, right. You know exactly where every part of youre bodys location are, you can even see every part of youre body. Why cant you locate the I/Me? Why cant you see the I/Me?

Look at the computer in front of you. Where is the actual computer? Can you see the computer in reality/direct experience?
There is a screen in front of you, there is buttons, colours, electricity, there is wires and so on but where is the actual computer? The sum of all these components, is the computer right? Its like if you put all these components together then you get the computer but if you would take away every component in the computer and put them in front of you so you could see them, will you see the computer then? Has there ever been a computer?

Apply this seeing to the I/Me. We have thoughts, our 5 senses, the body and a sense of being/existing. If we put all these together then we get an I/Me. All these makes the I/Me. But if we could seperate all these things and put them one by one in front of us so we could see them, would you see the I/ME then? Where would the I be? Has there ever been an I here? How come you can see/know thoughts, the 5 senses, the body and the sense of being/existing but not the I?

There is a lot of questions here Brad, I want you to look at every single one of them and answer them. I know its a lot but I want you to push youre self to look at every single one fo them.

Love
Behzad

[Brad]

Hi Behzad,

I have been looking and thinking about this all day long. I'm about to go off on a tangent and may not be able to answer all the questions just yet, but I wanted to go ahead and post what I have seen so far.

Cool, so the word I points to the sum of all youre body parts. If we keep amputating the rest of youre body, youre legs, ears, fingers, hands and so on, will youre sense of self become less or diminishied? Will we be able to find a Me anywhere?

My initial response was that I would not feel a diminished sense of self if I kept amputating. I would still be what was left. Then I looked deeper.

I kept thinking about what it would be like to have every part of me that is not vital to survival amputated. Then I thought, "why stop there?" Most of my organs could be replaced with a transplant of someone esle's. I could survive with someone else's heart, blood, liver, skin, etc. I would still be here even though most of my body wasn't mine. Does this still occure to be my body? No. Is it still my body? Yes. Who's body? This points me to the only thing left that could be creating this sense of self, my brain.

The brain relies on senses, so let's keep hacking away. Rip out my eyes, ear drums, and tongue. My nose has already been cut off. Since I can't sever the spinal cord high enough to eliminate the sense of tough withough killing the body, let's have a doctor come in and destroy the part of the brain responsible for the sense of touch. While we're at it, let's have him destroy the part responsible for memories too.

So now I am left with a partial body which is mostly made up of others' parts, no senses, and no memory. What is left? Thoughts? How could there be any thoughts without any senses, memory or experience to draw from? There can't. There is nothing left to show up in consciousness. There is no awareness of a me or a body, yet it's still there being sustained by machines and feeding tubes. There is nothing.

After the hours I have put in looking at this, I believe this. But beliefs are not real. I want to know this, not believe it. How do I know it? I will keep looking this, just wanted to give you an update as to where I was and see if you think I am relying on speculation too much.

Brad

[Brad]

I just noticed that I misspelled occur. Why does that bother "me"?

[Behzad]

Really good Brad, keep digging. You are doing great.
Keep answering every questions as I told you. And we will see if this is known or belived in after you have ansered all the questions.

Keep going, keep pushing it and thank you for the update...

Love
Behzad