The Gate

Hello,
I am really in need of some guidance please, in the hope that I make it through the Gate. I have been reading the Gateless gatecrashers and looking at a few videos on youtube from various people. I kinda get this no self thing, as in it makes sense when I think about it but aghhh! Also can't stop feeling like there is a self here. Its so frustrating why can't I get round this?? Would appreciate some help.



Thanx
Su

Hello Sushi,

Welcome. if it`s okej for you then I can guide you?

But, before we move on there are a few ground rules - the usual - please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least once a day, time permitting.
2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers.
3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honestly,
4. and when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

And please, try to keep the language as simple as possible, because English is my second language. If this is fine with you we can start the process : )

Thinking about the self or no self, beliving in self or no self doesnt change a thing. This has to be actually seen/known. If you are ready we can give it a shot?

So lets look at youre expectations first if you are ready to continue. Please, bring out all the expectations you have and write them down. Dont leave a single one behind. The expectations can be seen as singpost to where you want to get. But often we have lot of expectations and a few of them are really unrealistic, so if we keep on beliving in them then it can be difficult to see if there is a self or not because we are very subtle looking for our expectations too, to fulfill them and if the expectation is not realistic then the search can go on for ever. Because the truth maybe is not what we thought it would look like.

So, What are your expectations for liberation?
How will this feel?
How will this change you?

Write down every expectation you have, dont leave a single one behind.

Behzad

Hi Behzad,
Thankyou for your kind offer to guide me, I am very grateful.
I have read and agree to all the ground rules, and will be happy to answer all your questions with 110% honesty. So here we go!

So, What are your expectations for liberation?
How will this feel?
How will this change you?

What I expect from liberation is some sort of shift that might be subtle or profound but either way noticeable. I hope to feel joy, happiness, freedom, with a release from the suffering caused from the attachment of feeling that there exists a self.
I think this will have a positive effect on my life in general, as I hope there will be change enabling me to live life from the truth of actually seeing things the way they really are, and not through a false reality ( The self).

Hi Behzad,
Sorry forgot to add that I also wanted relief from being sucked in by my thoughts, and identifying with them, only later to then think hang on a minute, I've just been taken in by my thoughts again. Sometimes the realisation of thought identification doesn't happen until I am well into a story. This usually happens when there are fear thoughts looming, as in my experience they seem to have the ability to grip you more.


Su

What I expect from liberation is some sort of shift that might be subtle or profound but either way noticeable

Sounds good, sometimes it can be so subtle that we may notice the shift few days after or a week or something after. The shift is nothing you can look for to find, it is when we let go of the beliefs/storys that we have thought was real that a subtle shift starts to take place. When we start to see whats real and whats unreal.

I hope to feel joy, happiness, freedom, with a release from the suffering caused from the attachment of feeling that there exists a self.

Joy, happines, freedom may happen when this is seen or maybe not. This is not something you should except to get as soon as there has been seen that there is no I here. What you get from seeing that there is no self is EXACTLY that there is no self here and has never been. What the result of the seeing will be its diffrent for different people. But usually a sense of relief and relaxsation usually comes with it. But its very important to not except anything. Know the truth for the sake of the truth.

I think this will have a positive effect on my life in general, as I hope there will be change enabling me to live life from the truth of actually seeing things the way they really are, and not through a false reality ( The self).

Life continues as it has ever done. They may be positive changes or negative changes. But this just matter if there is a belief that there is a you here. Life continues to move as it wants. How it moves we can never know. This has nothing to do with changing life. Life is as it is. We are intrested to see if there is a you to whom life is happening? Is there really a you in the centre? This you have to find out. Keep youre focus only on that. Dont let that go until its truly seen if there is an I here or not.

Sorry forgot to add that I also wanted relief from being sucked in by my thoughts, and identifying with them, only later to then think hang on a minute, I've just been taken in by my thoughts again. Sometimes the realisation of thought identification doesn't happen until I am well into a story. This usually happens when there are fear thoughts looming, as in my experience they seem to have the ability to grip you more.

Yes, I know this very well of being sucked into thoughts : ) And this is how life likes to express itself. To be lost in thoughts sometimes and at other times there is just the seeing of the thoughts happening. Thats how life happens. Thats whats happening. Then there is another layer of thoughts that comes in on top of the experience of (being sucked into thoughts) that is saying that this should not be happenig, I should witness my thoughts, I should not be lost in thoughts and so on. But is that an entity? Is it a seperate person saying that or is it just another thought happening? So is there anyone that is having this experience of being sucked into thoughts or is it just life happening? You have to truly look into the experience of being sucked into thoughts to see/know how things really are. Thinking about it want do it, only look to see whats real, whats true and whats not real and not true.

See if you find an I/Me that is having the experience of being lost in thoughts? Where is that I/Me? Can you point where that I is? Maybe there is just the experience happening, look and see what is true?

Start to answer these questions. You dont need any knowledge from the past to do this. Its like asking a child is youre toy in the room? What does the child have to do? Look right? It want help the child if he/she starts to think about if the toy is in the room or analyze or remember or think or go around and ask other perople if the toy is in the room and so on. The child only needs to look and tell what he/she sees in the room. Is the toy in the room, its a yes or no question, that simple.

So, is it a toy (I) in the room (here)?

Hi Behzad,

See if you find an I/Me that is having the experience of being lost in thoughts?

I have looked at the experience of being lost in thoughts, and I can't find an I/Me there at all. The I/Me is included in the thoughts, as part of the thinking. When this is looked at, it is clear that the I/Me is just a thought, without any substance, but there is something there that seems to feel like an individual or.....the thoughts are creating this impression. What is it that's there then?

Where is that I/Me? Can you point where that I is

No, I cannot point to the Me. When I looked, It felt as if the me was connected with the body, but on closer examination of this I cannot pin point where in the body? I cannot be in the head either because the head contains the mind which consists of thoughts, and I know that there are thoughts which are about the I, but other than that there is no I to be found. Where am I then? I shall look some more.

Maybe there is just the experience happening, look and see what is true?

The thought of experience just happening doesn't seem logical or does it? what happened earlier today made me think more about the possibility of this being the truth.
Today, when driving home, I was once again lost in thought, but then I realised, for a short period of time, that I had been driving automatically, without thinking about the mechanics of driving. Also during that period of time, where was the I/Me? there wasn't an I/Me present, so who was driving the car? How could my body drive the car without the input from my mind? If my body was driving the car independently, Is every action the body does carried out independently? If so why haven't I been aware of this? I think I will have to observe the body actions some more to obtain some clarity on this.



Su

I have looked at the experience of being lost in thoughts, and I can't find an I/Me there at all. The I/Me is included in the thoughts, as part of the thinking. When this is looked at, it is clear that the I/Me is just a thought, without any substance, but there is something there that seems to feel like an individual or.....the thoughts are creating this impression. What is it that's there then?

Yes thoughts are always creating the impression of there being an I/Me here. So once you really see that there is no I then there can be an allowing of all that thoughts. It doesnt matter that they arise as long as the truth about them is known. The I is just an imagination, a phantom. Something we think exist but really is not here when looking for it.

Have you ever seen a 3D movie? Sometimes with the glasses on the picture from film can seem to be right at youre face, almost as if you could grasp the movie. But the pictures are not really there. If you take away the glasses (look in the now/direct experience) then they are not here. They were just appearing to be here. So while having the glasses on now you know that its not real, the pictures are not appering in front of you, they are still on the screen. Same is with the I it keeps appearing and appearing but now there is a knowing that its not real. Its just a thought/ a story about sushi that is not here in youre actual experience, just in the head so to speak.

Can you zoom in that something that feels like an individual? Is a thought? A feeling? Look into it and tell me exactly what it is?

No, I cannot point to the Me. When I looked, It felt as if the me was connected with the body, but on closer examination of this I cannot pin point where in the body? I cannot be in the head either because the head contains the mind which consists of thoughts, and I know that there are thoughts which are about the I, but other than that there is no I to be found. Where am I then? I shall look some more.

Look in youre direct experience, is there a mind or is it just thoughts happening?
If you still feel like you are somewhere then I recomend you to keep looking, until there is no doubt about there being a self or not? Turn every stone and see if there is anyone here?

The thought of experience just happening doesn't seem logical or does it? what happened earlier today made me think more about the possibility of this being the truth.

You have to look into this and verify if this is right or not that there is just an experience happening right now. Whatever that is happening is known, right. If thoughts happen then there is a knowing of them, if feeling happen then there is a knowing of there being a feeling here, if people, situations, different sights, smell, sounds come and going then there is a knowing of them all. All this verify that something is knowing all these experiences that comes and goes. Now, look into the place where you feel the knowing is, the place where you feel the knowing is happening. Is there any entity/person/sushi that knows all of these things happening?

Today, when driving home, I was once again lost in thought, but then I realised, for a short period of time, that I had been driving automatically, without thinking about the mechanics of driving. Also during that period of time, where was the I/Me? there wasn't an I/Me present, so who was driving the car? How could my body drive the car without the input from my mind? If my body was driving the car independently, Is every action the body does carried out independently? If so why haven't I been aware of this? I think I will have to observe the body actions some more to obtain some clarity on this.

Very good observation. You see the natural inteliligence is doing it all. You have never done a damn thing : ) You have verified that I is a thought, right? So does that I thought have a sentience of its own?

Can that I thought look/see?
Can it feel?
Taste?
Smell?
Hear?
Can the I thought decide, take decisions?
Can the I thought think thoughts?

So is everything happening spontanously/naturally or is it the I thought that is doing all of these things happen?

You are on the right track Sushi, pushit a little bit more : )

Hi Behzad,

Can you zoom in that something that feels like an individual? Is a thought? A feeling? Look into it and tell me exactly what it is?

I cannot zoom into any one particular thing that makes me feel like an individual, but looking from direct experience, It comes about from a collection of things together, e.g. a constant stream of thoughts referencing a me, me, me, along with the recognition of familiar mannerisms that are original to this body / mind: Voice, habits, personality, and a unique appearance to everybody else. When investigated, I could see how all these things originate from thoughts, and these thoughts reinforce the sense of a separate self.

Look in youre direct experience, is there a mind or is it just thoughts happening?
If you still feel like you are somewhere then I recomend you to keep looking, until there is no doubt about there being a self or not? Turn every stone and see if there is anyone here?

I tend to think of the brain as the mind, there is something there that is functioning, I mean there is something that calculates, calls up memory and concentrates. Today whilst changing the bed sheets, the mind was occupied with thoughts about something that had happened earlier, and so I wasn’t concentrating on the job at hand. I suddenly realised I was taking the duvet cover off which, had already been changed, and then the thought came ‘oh what am I doing’. Actions go wrong when there is a lack of concentration.
Again, I have looked and looked for a ‘me’, but it is nowhere to be found. Doing shopping, no ‘me’, driving the car, no ‘me’, having lunch, no ‘me’, body functions, no ‘me’. I am trying to get around this, I know there is no self, but feel as though it hasn’t sunk in yet. So I decided to observe the body some more to further convince myself. I checked to see if there was any control over actions, but noticed the body reacted automatically to circumstance:
Hair fell onto face – body moved hair from face
Washed hands, water splashed on arm – body dried arm with towel
After washing hands – there was noticing of dryness of hands, thought immediately followed with ‘put hand cream on’ but was the body
already going for the hand cream?
Stomach rumbled – Thought / labelling immediately followed ‘I’m hungry’, got some lunch
There was a thought reminding me to put a television programme on at a certain time – how did that thought arise just at the right time? Was that part of life just happening? What brought the memory up? Is memory just happening too?

Now, look into the place where you feel the knowing is, the place where you feel the knowing is happening. Is there any entity/person/sushi that knows all of these things happening?

I don't know where the place is where the knowing is happening, I looked but was unable to pinpoint exactly where the knowing occurred. This means that there is no entity / person who has this knowing, otherwise I would know where to locate the place.

You have verified that I is a thought, right? So does that I thought have a sentience of its own?

Can that I thought look/see?
Can it feel?
Taste?
Smell?
Hear?
Can the I thought decide, take decisions?
Can the I thought think thoughts?

No, the I thought cannot see, feel, taste, smell or hear, all these things happen automatically. The senses operate regardless of an ‘I’ being present.
The I thought cannot decide to make decisions because the I thought cannot think, it’s just a thought. Initially it feels as though the self makes the decision, but when looking from direct experience the decision comes about from both circumstance and thought in agreement.
When deciding whether to have a cup of tea or hot chocolate, the circumstance is 'what the body desires', a thought then agrees with this and the decision is made.
When deciding what to wear today, the circumstance is 'what is the weather like', and what clothes suit the weather, again, thought agrees with an outfit, and the decision is made.

So is everything happening spontaneously/naturally or is it the I thought that is doing all of these things happen?

Since I have looked and seen that the I thought cannot do anything of itself, I would say that everything is naturally /spontaneously happening, but this too hasn't quite sunk in yet. I will continue to look into direct experience until it has.

Su

I cannot zoom into any one particular thing that makes me feel like an individual, but looking from direct experience, It comes about from a collection of things together, e.g. a constant stream of thoughts referencing a me, me, me, along with the recognition of familiar mannerisms that are original to this body / mind: Voice, habits, personality, and a unique appearance to everybody else. When investigated, I could see how all these things originate from thoughts, and these thoughts reinforce the sense of a separate self.

All this that you describe reinforce the sense of self you say. But can all this change the fact of there being an I or not? Even if all this happens and it will continue to happen but does it matter if you are 110% sure that they are not personal. They are just an appearance of life happening, of conscioussnes. Its not youres. Thats how life is expressing itself through that form. There is no you in there, so all this is allowed to happen.

Dont we say that the sun goes down and the sun goes up? But we all know that the sun doesnt go up nor down. But its okej to say that as long as we know the truth about it, right. Same thing is with all youre thoughts that is refrencing a me along with all the mannersism that reminds of an I/Me. All this can still go on as long as you are sure that they are not refrencing any substantial entity.

So is it okej for all this mannersism to be, to happen, to arise? Do all this I thoughts and mannersism change the fact of there being an I/Me here? Can they ever change that fact of there being an I/Me here no matter how much mannersims/I thoughts still is going on?

Again, I have looked and looked for a ‘me’, but it is nowhere to be found. Doing shopping, no ‘me’, driving the car, no ‘me’, having lunch, no ‘me’, body functions, no ‘me’. I am trying to get around this, I know there is no self, but feel as though it hasn’t sunk in yet. So I decided to observe the body some more to further convince myself. I checked to see if there was any control over actions, but noticed the body reacted automatically to circumstance:

Good, Look and see that everything is happening by itself. I is just an after thought/a thought that comes and claims the happening. Like, reading is happening now, right? Eyes are seeing this words on the computer. But the I says I am reading this, I am seeing this. This is just a story/a fiction on top of whats actually happening. Its a layer on the now wich is not really here, just in imagination. So wich one is real. Reading happening or you reading this message? Is there a you anywhere doing the reading/seeing here?

If not then thats the freedom. Thats the seeing that there is no one here. The one looking for something more like enlightenment, peace, love, happiness and so on is just a story built of thoughts, feelings, memorys and all the mannersism that is uniqe for that body/mind. The story is not real whats actually real is just whats really here. And everything is happening beautifully without an I here. I is just a fiction about you. Do you see the fiction/story coming and going in youre actual reality? Do you see an I that pops up in youre physical reality when I thoughts arise?
If you think about Superman, does he appear in front of you?

I don't know where the place is where the knowing is happening, I looked but was unable to pinpoint exactly where the knowing occurred. This means that there is no entity / person who has this knowing, otherwise I would know where to locate the place.

Yes, there is just knowing. No one knows. Just knowing. Pure knowing.

No, the I thought cannot see, feel, taste, smell or hear, all these things happen automatically. The senses operate regardless of an ‘I’ being present.
The I thought cannot decide to make decisions because the I thought cannot think, it’s just a thought. Initially it feels as though the self makes the decision, but when looking from direct experience the decision comes about from both circumstance and thought in agreement.
When deciding whether to have a cup of tea or hot chocolate, the circumstance is 'what the body desires', a thought then agrees with this and the decision is made.
When deciding what to wear today, the circumstance is 'what is the weather like', and what clothes suit the weather, again, thought agrees with an outfit, and the decision is made.

Good, so you can stop looking for the I now. This is good enough. Has there ever been an I here? Can there ever be an I here'?

Since I have looked and seen that the I thought cannot do anything of itself, I would say that everything is naturally /spontaneously happening, but this too hasn't quite sunk in yet. I will continue to look into direct experience until it has.

Very good, how is it going with this one. That there is only life happening without you in the picture? Is this seen?

Warm regards
Behzad

Hi Behzad,

All this that you describe reinforce the sense of self you say. But can all this change the fact of there being an I or not?

No, when looking again at this, nothing that is arising can change the fact that there is no I. It is a distraction from seeing what is really there, or not there as in the case of the I.

So is it okej for all this mannersism to be, to happen, to arise? Do all this I thoughts and mannersism change the fact of there being an I/Me here? Can they ever change that fact of there being an I/Me here no matter how much mannersims/I thoughts still is going on?

I can see now that what is seen as familiar to me, is only labelled as familiar by the mind, if the labelling and thoughts about this are disregarded then there wouldn’t be a sense of familiarity. None of this can change the fact of there being an I/self.

So which one is real. Reading happening or you reading this message? Is there a you anywhere doing the reading/seeing here?

Reading is just happening, there isn’t a me here anywhere doing the reading, it is not possible as the me is just a thought.

Do you see the fiction/story coming and going in youre actual reality?

Hmmm...... not sure about this. I see a how thoughts come and go creating a story, and how different circumstances come and go also creating stories, so yes! Everything is coming and going and thats how stories are forming, thoughts are telling us the stories about the happenings . Yes I do see this more clearly now.

Do you see an I that pops up in youre physical reality when I thoughts arise? If you think about Superman, does he appear in front of you?

Yes, it is all thought that is giving this impression. I can see this in my direct experience, and no, Superman does not appear in reality when thought about, but appears just as an image in the mind.

Has there ever been an I here? Can there ever be an I here'?

No, I can see that there has never been an I here and never can be. The I only exists as a thought in the mind.

Very good, how is it going with this one. That there is only life happening without you in the picture? Is this seen?

I have been looking at this further today, but thoughts of doubt keep arising, questioning what I see as being reality. This is kind of causing a bit of confusion for me:
I can see that the body moves independently of thought, and how the mind comes in afterwards and labels the experience, but then whilst having my evening meal, the thought arose reminding me to take my vitamin supplement. The body then got up to go and get the supplement. In my experience, this time, the thought came first, before the body movement, before the experience. This has now confused me.
Then another doubt arose: If I just sat still, cleared the mind of thought and just observed, why doesn’t the body carry on doing things. If life is living itself,why isn’t life carrying on without any input from the mind? Aghhh, now I see.....the body was having a still moment, just sitting, but the mind/thought came in labelling the experience, and in doing so created a story about why I cannot see life being observed.
It is as if there is some kind of resistance going on here, working against the seeing of reality. Same with the previous circumstance about the vitamin supplement. Hmmm!


Thanking you for your patience,
Su

Reading is just happening, there isn’t a me here anywhere doing the reading, it is not possible as the me is just a thought.

Very good, so if there is no I/Me doing anything here, is there anything the I/Me can find, like enlightenmet?

Yes, it is all thought that is giving this impression. I can see this in my direct experience, and no, Superman does not appear in reality when thought about, but appears just as an image in the mind.

Good, so you dont see any real superman coming and going in reality, just in the head so to speak, right?
So is there a superman in realtiy that flies and helps people? Can you find him? If not, does he really exist, is he real?

Is there any similarirty between you/I and superman?

No, I can see that there has never been an I here and never can be. The I only exists as a thought in the mind.

Beautiful, if there has never been an I here and will never be then whats left?

Is there anyone that can still be seeking for something?

I can see that the body moves independently of thought, and how the mind comes in afterwards and labels the experience, but then whilst having my evening meal, the thought arose reminding me to take my vitamin supplement. The body then got up to go and get the supplement. In my experience, this time, the thought came first, before the body movement, before the experience. This has now confused me.

What is confusing? You are seeing clearly how actions is being done. Are you excpecting things to happen in another way? Did you thought that actions happens first then the I thought comes and claims whats happening? Did you thought that, that is the only way life is operating?

Can you see that no one was in control of the thought that reminded you to take youre vitamin? And when the body moved to take the vitamin supplement then that actions arose/happend spontanously?

Lets play the whole scenario. A thought comes and says "oh, I must take my vitamin" then another thought may arise like "Yes, I have to take it" then another thought may arise like "Yes, I will do that now" then another thought may arise like "How did all that happen" then another thought "The thought I have to take my vitamin came first, before I did it" then another thought "Strange that the thought came before the action" then another thought " I thought that actions happen then thoughts come and claim that actions" then another thought "I feel confused, this was not like I was expecting" <-----Do you see all these is just thoughts. Is there an I there anywhere, really look? There is sentences that is happening and they are marketing/saying that there is an I there in the sentences, but except as the thought I is there really an I there doing all of that? Look into this so this becomes clear for you.

Sometimes thoughts happen then action/doing happen like "Oh, I forgot my pocket at home". The thought arise and action/doing happens naturally after that thought but there is no one doing all of that, it just happens.

Sometimes action/doing happens then thoughts happen like I did that or I am seeing and so on.

And sometimes actions happen and there is just the action/the doing happening without there being a doer, whithout any thought that is involved. There is just pure doing by no one.

Now look in youre direct experience during the day and see if you can verify this? See how doing happens? And also see if there is any I involved anywhere at all?

So no matter if the thoughts about something needs to be done comes/arises first before the doing or if the doing happens first then the after thoughts about the I comes and claims to do the doing, can you look and see that at the core, at the center there is no doer? You have to look this up in real life, not thinking about it, then it becomes a belief. Seeing this by youre self is what removes all the doubts and confusion.

Hi Behzad,

Very good, so if there is no I/Me doing anything here, is there anything the I/Me can find, like enlightenmet?

No, there is no I/Me to find anything, or to be enlightened, but there is something that a shift, be it subtle or otherwise, happens to when this is seen through.

So is there a superman in realtiy that flies and helps people? Can you find him? If not, does he really exist, is he real?
Is there any similarity between you/I and superman?

Superman does not exist in reality, you cannot find him in reality except as a thought/image within the mind, or as an image in the world, either on a TV screen, magazine, billboard etc. He definitely is not real at all in reality.This is also true of the I/self, which also only exists as a thought/image within the mind, or can be viewed as an image in the world, when there is identification with the body/mind. In reality, the self cannot be found as it does not exist.

Beautiful, if there has never been an I here and will never be then whats left?
Is there anyone that can still be seeking for something?

All that is left in reality, is life just happening and the natural perception of this, therefore there isn’t anyone that can be seeking anything.

What is confusing? You are seeing clearly how actions is being done. Are you excpecting things to happen in another way? Did you thought that actions happens first then the I thought comes and claims whats happening? Did you thought that, that is the only way life is operating?

Yes, I was expecting things to be done by action first, then the I thought claiming the action later. I had read this somewhere on one of the threads on the LU website, that this is how reality is. When in direct experience I perceived it the other way round, I thought that I had misunderstood something, or I wasn’t looking properly. I can now see that I was perceiving correctly, it can happen either way.

Can you see that no one was in control of the thought that reminded you to take youre vitamin? And when the body moved to take the vitamin supplement then that actions arose/happend spontanously?

Yes, it is the same as when a thought arose spontaneously reminding me to turn the oven on at a certain time, in order for my meal to be cooked on time. The thought preceded the action then, just as it did with the reminder for the vitamin supplement. Both times it just spontaneously happened, nobody was in control.

There is sentences that is happening and they are marketing/saying that there is an I there in the sentences, but except as the thought I is there really an I there doing all of that? Look into this so this becomes clear for you.

I can see how sometimes my perception of reality is clearer than other times, and how at times during the day I have managed to be taken in by thoughts, instead of allowing them to simply pass through my awareness.

And sometimes actions happen and there is just the action/the doing happening without there being a doer, whithout any thought that is involved. There is just pure doing by no one.
Now look in youre direct experience during the day and see if you can verify this? See how doing happens? And also see if there is any I involved anywhere at all?

I did verify this today, I noticed that the body put a dish in the cupboard automatically, when there wasn’t a thought involved preceding the action or following it. The action was simply carried out by nobody. I can see that there is no ‘I’ or doer that is doing the action, but I am going to have to look some more at this until it really clicks into my being. Should the seeing of this be my constant natural state? I feel like I am going to and fro – at times I can look at my direct experience, there is no doer, there is no labelling happening, and whatever I see I feel as though it is the first time I have ever looked at it, as if it is new and I haven’t really seen it before. It feels a bit strange but at the same time wonderful. At other times, I feel like I am back at square one, looking at my experience the way I have always looked at it. I need to look constantly, every second, which is something I can’t always manage when I’m busy etc, but I am determined!



Thanking you,
Su

No, there is no I/Me to find anything, or to be enlightened, but there is something that a shift, be it subtle or otherwise, happens to when this is seen through.

Yes, thats right.

Superman does not exist in reality, you cannot find him in reality except as a thought/image within the mind, or as an image in the world, either on a TV screen, magazine, billboard etc. He definitely is not real at all in reality.This is also true of the I/self, which also only exists as a thought/image within the mind, or can be viewed as an image in the world, when there is identification with the body/mind. In reality, the self cannot be found as it does not exist.

Beautiful, you nail it : )

Yes, I was expecting things to be done by action first, then the I thought claiming the action later. I had read this somewhere on one of the threads on the LU website, that this is how reality is. When in direct experience I perceived it the other way round, I thought that I had misunderstood something, or I wasn’t looking properly. I can now see that I was perceiving correctly, it can happen either way.

Good...

I can see how sometimes my perception of reality is clearer than other times, and how at times during the day I have managed to be taken in by thoughts, instead of allowing them to simply pass through my awareness.

Being taken in by thoughts happen then allowing them to pass through happen. These are experiences, both of them that comes and goes. Is there an excpetation that being taken in by thoughts should not happen? If life is all there is, who/what is it that prefers the allowing instead of being taken by thoughts?

And

If there is no you like you have confirmed who/what is that has a problem with how life should be? How life should move?

Is there anything/anyone outside of these 2 experiences that these happen too? Look.
See if you can find the person/entity that prefers the one experience over the other? Is it a person or only a thought?

I did verify this today, I noticed that the body put a dish in the cupboard automatically, when there wasn’t a thought involved preceding the action or following it. The action was simply carried out by nobody. I can see that there is no ‘I’ or doer that is doing the action, but I am going to have to look some more at this until it really clicks into my being. Should the seeing of this be my constant natural state? I feel like I am going to and fro – at times I can look at my direct experience, there is no doer, there is no labelling happening, and whatever I see I feel as though it is the first time I have ever looked at it, as if it is new and I haven’t really seen it before. It feels a bit strange but at the same time wonderful. At other times, I feel like I am back at square one, looking at my experience the way I have always looked at it. I need to look constantly, every second, which is something I can’t always manage when I’m busy etc, but I am determined!

You ask should the seeing of this be my constant natural state? You feel like you go back and forth sometimes between seeing that there is no doer/controller and sometimes you are back at square one.

The seeing of this doesnt depend on how life looks like presently for you. It has nothing to do with that life should look a certain way. Life is movement and change. So it will move and change as it want. This is just a seeing/knowing that there can never be anyone here under any circumstance. Just life happening, moving, flowing, dancing.

So look at those moments when you feel that you are back at square one and verify/confirm for youre self if there is a Self/I/Me present there? Where is that I/Self? Maybe there is just an experience happening + thoughts about there being a doer? Thoughts about there being an I that they happen to or that is doing the action? Look and see what you find.

Can these I thoughts really ever bring an I/Me to reality? To the now? No matter how much they scream that I did this, I did that, this is happening to me and so on, can all that change the fact that there is no Me/I?

If I scream at youre face, "I SWEAR TO GOD THAT SANTA CLAUS EXISTS, I SAW HIM YESTERDAY, BELIVE ME I AM TELLING YOU THE TRUTH" would you belive me? Even if I looked really sincere and said that, would you belive me? Isnt this what the mind is doing and will keep doing? But does it matter as long as you know whats true and whats not?

Hi Behzad,

I

s there an expectation that being taken in by thoughts should not happen? If life is all there is, who/what is it that prefers the allowing instead of being taken by thoughts?
And
If there is no you like you have confirmed who/what is that has a problem with how life should be? How life should move?

Yes, there was an expectation that if I was seeing clearly then I wouldn’t be taken in by thoughts anymore, that there would be seeing from a different perspective, just allowing thoughts to flow through, without getting emotionally drawn in. Being taken in by thought means that there is identification with the I/Self, doesn’t this drop away when you see that the I/Self doesn’t exist? Or do you still get drawn in by thoughts even though it has been seen that there is no I/Self?
I have seen that there is no me anywhere in anything that is happening, but doubts are coming in and questions arising. After spending all my life so far, thinking that there was a doer, It is hard to believe that life is just happening by itself. I look at this all the time in direct experience, I see that the I doesn’t exist, I see that there is no I doing anything, I have watched the movement of the body that isn’t operated by any I or Self, But there lurks something that hasn’t fully accepted this as fact. I don’t know what though I can’t get put my finger on it. Maybe this will drop away in time.

Is there anything/anyone outside of these 2 experiences that these happen too? Look.
See if you can find the person/entity that prefers the one experience over the other? Is it a person or only a thought?

There isn’t anybody there to have preference, there is no person, just thoughts of a person/self.

So look at those moments when you feel that you are back at square one and verify/confirm for youre self if there is a Self/I/Me present there? Where is that I/Self? Maybe there is just an experience happening + thoughts about there being a doer? Thoughts about there being an I that they happen to or that is doing the action? Look and see what you find.

I have looked again for a Self/I during one of these moments, and couldn’t find anything. One thing that was noticed was that the thoughts that pull me in are thoughts that have emotions attached to them. So there is an accompanying feeling arising with the thought , which provides a different experience to those thoughts that arise without emotion, but there was still no I/Self to be found.

Can these I thoughts really ever bring an I/Me to reality? To the now? No matter how much they scream that I did this, I did that, this is happening to me and so on, can all that change the fact that there is no Me/I?

No, the I thoughts can never bring an I/Me to reality, because they are just thoughts without substance.

I

f I scream at youre face, "I SWEAR TO GOD THAT SANTA CLAUS EXISTS, I SAW HIM YESTERDAY, BELIVE ME I AM TELLING YOU THE TRUTH" would you belive me? Even if I looked really sincere and said that, would you belive me? Isnt this what the mind is doing and will keep doing? But does it matter as long as you know whats true and whats not?

No, it doesn’t matter when you know what is true. It was just expectation that this would somehow be different when the I/Self had been seen through, but from what you have explained, it all just carries on the same, including being pulled in by thoughts.


Many thanks,
Su

Yes, there was an expectation that if I was seeing clearly then I wouldn’t be taken in by thoughts anymore, that there would be seeing from a different perspective, just allowing thoughts to flow through, without getting emotionally drawn in. Being taken in by thought means that there is identification with the I/Self, doesn’t this drop away when you see that the I/Self doesn’t exist? Or do you still get drawn in by thoughts even though it has been seen that there is no I/Self?

Can you ever be pulled in to thoughts? Is it really you that goes in and out of thoughts?
When there is identification with thoughts, is there really anyone that gets identified? Where is that one that gets identifeid? Can you show him/her to me? If you stand in front of the mirror, will you be able to see that one that moves in and out of thoughts when thats happening?

Or

Is I were lost in thoughts just another thought, story happening about you?

Can there just be lostness in thoughts and when that ends then there is just thoughts flowing through and maybe lostness again and then just thoughts flowing through again and so forth, whitout there being an I involved? Is there really an actual I/Me that moves in and out all the time?

Look at all this questions and tell me what you SEE?

I have seen that there is no me anywhere in anything that is happening, but doubts are coming in and questions arising. After spending all my life so far, thinking that there was a doer, It is hard to believe that life is just happening by itself. I look at this all the time in direct experience, I see that the I doesn’t exist, I see that there is no I doing anything, I have watched the movement of the body that isn’t operated by any I or Self, But there lurks something that hasn’t fully accepted this as fact. I don’t know what though I can’t get put my finger on it. Maybe this will drop away in time.

Keep seing the fact that there is no self, then see the doubts, truly see them. Now look at reality again, direct experience. Wich one is true. that wich is seen in direct experiecne or the doubts?

See doubts as a frieand, bring them to youre direct experience and see if they are true, if not then you can let them go. They are not true if they dont match that wich is real, that wich is true, that wich is actually here.

There isn’t anybody there to have preference, there is no person, just thoughts of a person/self.

Good.

I have looked again for a Self/I during one of these moments, and couldn’t find anything. One thing that was noticed was that the thoughts that pull me in are thoughts that have emotions attached to them. So there is an accompanying feeling arising with the thought , which provides a different experience to those thoughts that arise without emotion, but there was still no I/Self to be found.

Very good....

No, the I thoughts can never bring an I/Me to reality, because they are just thoughts without substance.

Thats right...

No, it doesn’t matter when you know what is true. It was just expectation that this would somehow be different when the I/Self had been seen through, but from what you have explained, it all just carries on the same, including being pulled in by thoughts.

Yes, good. Being pulled in to thoughts still happens, seeing thoughts as thoughts still happens, but these things is not happening to anyone. So they are allowed to happen. Its just life happening, moving. I was lost in thoughts, is just an after thought, a story happening about you, after the seeing that there has been identification with thoughts. Like, "oh I have been lost in thoughts for the lat 20 secounds" <----- This is a after thought happening after the direcct experience of lostness in thoughts. So there has never been anyone in or out of the thoughts, are you with me on this? Can this be seen in direct experience? Check this out and see if its true....

And on the other hand if we should be a little bit skeptical then there is no lostness in thoughts, lostness requires an I/Me to be lost and there is also no identification with thoughts because also that requires an I/Me to get identified.

Its like a camera, zooming in (focus on the thougths) and zooming out (thoughts flowing by). No I there doing it. Just the way life wants to play and move : )

Can all this be seen?