Panos, let's free you here!

[Elena]

Panos, here is your story here:

Alright.. So my story.. Big life belief problem 5 years ago.. At which point I decided to look for the truth. Got depressed, lost my job, lost meaning and all that. Ended up living with my parents and basically hiding out trying to figure it out before I came back out to the world and engaged. I am 34 years old man kid. Changes have occurred throughout the journey. Nothing too significant. I almost became a Christian Orthodox monk at 24 (bragging) , got married instead and divorced. Studied philosophy and psychology. I was the guy that new the philosopher was bullshitting and would fight with the professor about his accuracy. Turns out I was looking for the truth all along, but it also seems I used the search to hide from it. lol.

I figured out that everything is mental and more so a lie. In other words not what is seemed. I guess the lie is the me giving that meaning. Everything has correct meaning "I" am the one screwing the lens up. The farthest I have been was seeing that the concept "me" was just a thought claiming it. Like a television claiming there is a fire and "I" gear up in reaction to this. Only to find out that the only proof of fire was the tv's warning. In those brief minutes I was weird, felt lighter, saw my thoughts come and go. It was surreal. Went to take a shower. Smiles and giggles. Then doubt creep'd in. Tried to fight it, but had already come back. That was it. 5 minutes of this understanding. I get it mentally. All my thoughts are reactions to past attachments, which is to say that this is just one more bad "lens" or rather not bad but skewed because of my becauses. (I could write a few pages as to how it happens, but not the point here).

McKenna made me cry. Sri Rammana made me cry. Jesus made me cry.

So not ready, never will be, but Memento Mori has been rocking my world and I wan't to live before I die. So begun with questions.

Can you control thoughts?
No, I cannot control the reaction but I still feel that I can, I can see that I don't but that self feeling comes up.
Can you stop thought in the middle?
This one helped a lot. I realized the only way to interrupt feeling/thought was to try and look to where it was pointing to. Found that wants would be gone easily this way, but not regrets and things of the sort.
Can thought think?
This was also a good question. Although I felt it was incorrectly presented. Like asking "Can running run", but the question really is if there is anybody within the thought that thinks. The answer is no. Thought is mechanic and I can feel that I am the source of it. But not the I within the thought, a different "I: like when they ask you to center yourself and you feel strong, but not with a sense of "I" exactly.

This is as far as I have gone this time. I have many questions as to the validity of your liberation's by the way. I believe you are all further along then "me", in other words seeing through the "I" takes a big chunk out, but there are more chunks that will fall off once that is gone.

And I loved what you said :"Ready". This is great statement, and I feel you are ready. So let me go over what you wrote here and I will reply shortly.

[Elena]

I figured out that everything is mental and more so a lie.

nice seeing

Then doubt creep'd in.

what is doubt? Why it should be out? And if it is in, then somehow awakening stops?

What is awakening?

McKenna made me cry. Sri Rammana made me cry. Jesus made me cry.

So now I want you to cry to see it, out of desperation. Cry and empty yourself of all the assumptions and expectation how you see liberation, and like a pure baby - look.

Thought is mechanic, and I can feel that I am the source of it.But not the I within the thought, a different "I: like when they ask you to center yourself and you feel strong, but not with a sense of "I" exactly.

read this post: http://completehumanity.blogspot.com/20 ... quiry.html

so let's narrow focus and look for what isn't, ok?

I believe you are all further along then "me", in other words seeing through the "I" takes a big chunk out, but there are more chunks that will fall off once that is gone.

we see it just you are, but let's save this till the end

Please while you engage with me do not read blogs, forums and etc. The reason only to keep your attention focused on looking. Yes?

[Panos]

what is doubt? Why it should be out? And if it is in, then somehow awakening stops?

What is awakening?

Doubt is a certain thought/mental position of identification fueled by fear. Fear seems to be that which I do not wish to look at. All emotions seem to be produced as apparent reactions to attachments of identification suggestion. Awakening is the functional understanding of this mental world being imaginary, and that irrelevant of fears and doubts and wants and all the mental story lines, that being is only manifesting these as appearances, or more so the form of "you" is these aspects. I would guess at this point that awakening is the realization that there is no somebody and something these emotional aspects of us are the us. This is us-ing... Awakening is the realization what us-ing or I-ing is.

Writing this makes me consider the amount of bullshit I am trying to present here. I mean it sounds great, and I believe its true, its just that it can't be true, for it if it was, I would not need to answer your question. I would know. Awakening in my mind is absolute knowing without fear. Won't I miss the drama..?

So now I want you to cry to see it, out of desperation. Cry and empty yourself of all the assumptions and expectation how you see liberation, and like a pure baby - look.

Scared... My first response was a reaction to what you wrote. Then stopped it, and tried to look again. just found fear.. What is fear? I read its to protect nothing, but what really is it? To cry means I have to bring up my will to fight it first. I am tired of fighting., Would prefer a simpler way...

so let's narrow focus and look for what isn't, ok?

OK, its not success, or freedom, or failure, or doing, or becoming neti neti.. Really? Its not any of it. I mean I understand that any of that stuff is a perception angle but freedom from all of it..? Is it not freedom from all of it? I guess its freedom from the desire of freedom.

Is it ever accurate to label action, is it ever that label. I guess I am under the assumption that thought influences my actions, I want a better result. And awakening will give me this result. Will give me the ability to not feel that yuck feeling, and be fulfilled in my life no matter what I do. No fear of death...

Yes ready.. I have looked back enough times to realize that this looking back business is a waste of time. Its a certain way of treating in the now. I also saw that whoever thought was making decisions didn't have a clue while the truth of the situation was right there in front of them.. So how amazing would be it be to live life without that damn filter, clear all the time. Aware, there, truth...

I need more focus, I see the me bouncing around. I also still have a sweet feeling of vanity playing around in me.. Like sweet sorrow, it reminds me of when I am reminiscent on old relationship.

So let me try again..

Doubt--

If it should be in, does awakening stop? Yes in a way. Its not that the process stops its just its an indication that you are not there/here yet. Which is odd, since there is no thing else but here. So the You that said yes that doubt needs to stop is the attachment or issue with doubt? Am I always looking at the relationship to being no different?

Which reminds me again of the fact that I am looking for a way to look at it. Looking does not demand a way.

The process of awakening it negation of false beliefs. So yes if doubt is there, then false belief is there. Concept is there, I am there. so must see through it> Will await further questions from you..

Look for what it isn't-

Its a level higher from a self, which is odd, since there is no higher or lower without the I to separate..

Ok, ready for more..

[Elena]

Writing this makes me consider the amount of bullshit I am trying to present here.

loved the honesty.

I mean it sounds great, and I believe its true, its just that it can't be true, for it if it was, I would not need to answer your question.I would know.

Won't I miss the drama..?

you have this thoughts what is awakening, they are false. This question is irrelevant. Awakening does not have anything to do with more or less drama. Drop the assumptions, we will discuss all this later, or you won't even need to discuss it - you will be laughing

just found fear.. What is fear? I read its to protect nothing, but what really is it?

Fear is very common right before you see. Many went through fear, you are not alone in this. This will not last long, though. If you really look what is behind the fear. You are a warrior, Panos, I know it. You want simpler way - sorry. For warriors the way is only through fear. And if one is not a warrior, one doesn't have a chance to see, well, if he is luckily awaken in a sleep at night, I guess, but most I saw - went through fear. You are tired of fighting without the result. Have a trust in the honest looking and me guiding, and we will celebrate soon, ok?

I guess its freedom from the desire of freedom.

this is a great insight, yes

And awakening will give me this result. Will give me the ability to not feel that yuck feeling, and be fulfilled in my life no matter what I do. No fear of death...

What if there death will wait for you, my friend? Would you want to retreat now? Can you leave without seeing the truth? Can you? Ask yourself.

Yes ready.. I have looked back enough times to realize that this looking back business is a waste of time. Its a certain way of treating in the now. I also saw that whoever thought was making decisions didn't have a clue while the truth of the situation was right there in front of them.. So how amazing would be it be to live life without that damn filter, clear all the time. Aware, there, truth...

now you are talking !

I need more focus, I see the me bouncing around.

I love this determination.

Doubt--
blah, blah...

Ok, my friend, let take a handle on feeling here. Any feeling comes up - great doubt or fear or sadness - you will look into the feeling in this way:

Feeling is energy in movement. It exists. It comes to give us some information. Ok, so you see, this fear is just a messenger. So what you do when messenger comes and knock on your door? You open it and ask what he bring to you? You of not hide inside the house pretending that nobody there at the door, right? Same here - fear is here, why pretend it's not. Open the door and invite it, welcome it and ask what it brought to you this time. Then - very important - you shut the running mind, you become very attentive, you focus. YOU LISTEN.

whatever you hear - write down.

Then you look behind the fear, like you were afread that this messenger brought a riffle with you, and you talk to him, and you still feel a lot of tension, because you know - he has a riffle there. So you sneak behind him, even just glance there - you see nothing. You relax. Try the same with fear. Ok?

The process of awakening it negation of false beliefs. So yes if doubt is there, then false belief is there. Concept is there, I am there.

this is great, but intellectual.

must see through it

you are really on the right path

You just need to compare what is real and what is false, illusory. Do you know how to do it?

You look into your reality as it is, plainly, just like you look at your computer, or a tree - just plainly look and ask "Is it real?". If you do not know - close your eyes. Is it still there? Ope - yes, your computer is there. It's a real thing.

Then you choose any illusory object, like red orb flying now in your room. Does it exist? No, it's illusory. It's only a thought of red orb flying in your room. This thought - exist. It's real. Red orb - no, it's just label to experience - thinking about red orb.

Then you take self. Can you find self? See that self is just like the red orb - it's a label to the experience - body/sensations/feelings/thoughts arising and passing. All these do exist. Self - not. It's an illusion just like red orb.

Go and really look into all this.

[Panos]

Drop the assumptions

Dropping assumptions.

You are tired of fighting without the result. Have a trust in the honest looking and me guiding, and we will celebrate soon, ok?

es, at some point I realized it was meaningless, the carrot race would never stop. I could fight till death but it would not free me. So stopped "willing" retreated. I do trust your guiding.

What if there death will wait for you, my friend? Would you want to retreat now? Can you leave without seeing the truth? Can you? Ask yourself.

I did not exactly understand this statement. Life would not be fulfilling with fear of death there, and it is there. Could I walk away? Lol I pretend that I could I have tried a million times, but its short lived and hurts like hell every time it bounces me back. I still. try to escape. At this point I will be trying the mail man fear thing instead.

Same here - fear is here, why pretend it's not. Open the door and invite it, welcome it and ask what it brought to you this time. Then - very important - you shut the running mind, you become very attentive, you focus. YOU LISTEN.

I have done this a lot, but when the fear answers I would then go into a bunch of reactions as to discuss it, resolve it, somehow solve it. This did not work. You are saying simply ask, listen , write down and look behind.. That's it. No further process? Will try it. I am guessing that the extra thoughts or attempts to react are parts of the fear I have not sat down to really hear. I will give it a shot and inform you of result.

You just need to compare what is real and what is false, illusory. Do you know how to do it?

Want to talk about fear, it jumps out at this one. Starts a whole series of questions in my mind. But most of them where answered with

Red orb - no, it's just label to experience - thinking about red orb.

So to call self a a self is just a label to the experience of thinking of self. Or selfing... That calms the fears down. But if I am to understand correctly fear is my food now. So I will try the looking at whats real drill and deal with fear as asked.

Ok give me a couple of days. -- Actually attempted to procrastinate with that statement. I am on it.

NO trying, doing. I see it, the who or the "I" pop up in everything as if it needs to be included. I see its the very question I ask when I see .. (That's not as much as a clear seeing but more so an intellectualism.

Every emotion is transforming into a statement. I write it down , accept it, look behind it- sometimes its not even there anymore. Will focus on "I".. Ok will get back to you later today.

[Elena]

Really dig into red orb

[Panos]

Ok this is starting to feel weird. I am beginning to see that all these thoughts are inside my head. Its a hell of a fight though. I still assume control. I am the one doing this.. Why is there confusion in that? Will dig more into red orb. Its a hell of a fight...

[Panos]

Ok.. So, so far peculiar results..

First off the emotions are flaring up, almost cried for you today. I expect this will occur either way. I keep asking the emotions to tell me what they want, why they are there, share the wisdom. Whatever I get I accept, sit with a bit and move on. I look behind but not much to see most of the time, not certain if I am doing this part right.

The red orb thing creates all kinds of issues--emotions. I can be direct with answers from fear emotion, but have it be sadness and it gets complicated. Ahh maybe not... BS again..

Seriously no control? I mean I know this will look silly that I asked it, but no control at all? No choice? Those are the thoughts that flood with red orb. Since if all is a label, then everything even the "real" things I label are labels. So does my labeling "MY"/. labeling system do anything? Does it matter? So "I" is a label to the what? Holy ... What is the "I" labeling? I mean, I label tv screen because of whatever reason. But the "I", I can't even see that. Where is it? These questions do not solve the emotion of it by the way, at least not yet. It does not matter if I can see the tv, the label is arbitrary. You see, there is my "I" popping up with reason, and distinction. I don't know.

I don't care just take me further in, more red orb? I will do so either way, but lets do this... I wish I could express the profound sadness I feel inside of me, this me. I get that you all must of been through this already.. ..crying. I am tired of this.. More,,, focus me in.. Stay with me Elena..

Yes I have fought without the result. More so discovered that the fight was my vanity... as are all these attempts to avoid the inevitable. So will focus some more on red orb. (thank you for all of it)

[Elena]

I am sorry, my friend, I came back. Of cause I will stay with you. But I want you to see that your fight is unnecessary, really. It's only because you have this image in the head that it has to be really hard-core. Just drop the hard-core staff, enough. Fear comes up - just say, " hey, friend, I got the message, thanks. Anything new today? No? Same thing? Ok, ok, I'll talk to you later, ok? Let me look now." Seriously, see these emotions, fear as friends, and if you talk to them in the way you talk to friends, you will see they will just drop. And then you look. OK?

[Elena]

Since if all is a label, then everything even the "real" things I label are labels.

Look, like the label University.

It points to real buildings, students, professors - they all exist, real
University - does not exist, illusion, a label, thought that points to the experience of buildings+ students +professors

Body, sensations (sense of self), feelings - - they all exist, real
'I" - does not exist, illusion, a label, thought that points to the experience of body, sensations, feelings

Look.

[Panos]

I have been looking and looking. Pushing through. Had a few weird moments of clarity were something changed. I also went through a very emotional time with my girlfriend (timing). This made me want to see more. This is the type of thing I am tired of, the constant pointless emotions.

So i focused on the looking. I got that self is like red orb, from a peculiar experience that occurred last morning. My father said "its 10am, we have to go" in hearing that I asked why? I mean what does it being 10am have anything to do with it, the reason he wanted to go was because of some belief about something, that didn't even care to show up, it just used 10am as if 10am had any meaning in its own right. Point being that I realized that self is the same way like something that is pointed to to mean something but that is just a diversion from the belief and so on. So there is the description of self with a indicated meaning. But that meaning is imaginary.

So I see self is made up, and university is made up and so on. BUT>... When I attempt to extrapolate that to other thoughts, to say then who is thinking, thinking just happens. Fear comes in busting through the door like a maniac. Yes but who will accomplish wants, and you miss them (all my loved ones), and... Very intense, The fear that my life will be lost. I rebuttle with, its all in your head, "self" is the very reason you haven't gotten to have the wants anyway. To finish off with ok I get the message, let me look.

Treating emotions as friends is an awesome thing by the way, it has not really changed much but at least I don't dread the next feeling. So basically I see that red is like self and both are mental concepts. Yet I have not been able to see that mental concepts are not real. I see the effects of these concepts in life, at least I think they do. You are saying (if I understand correct) notice that these are just imaginations. Yes but imaginations that have effect, that seem to alter something. Unless ...

hmm...
Writing out loud here. So what you are suggesting is that there is really no self, there never was. So all the fear and fretting about would seem funny. When I thought this, the me feeling came on right away. But its not ame feeling is it? I don't understand how can these things be personal, or have that click about them.

Ohhh forgot to mention, I noticed my self being on auto yesterday, the body moving, the eyes blinking and all that, but I wasn't doing it. It was happening on its own. I know we are getting there..

Ok I will persist with Red Orb thing. I will also accept emotions and move on. Its like I don't want to realize that there is no me, fear. Like I can't ignore and simply accept that you won't go after what you want. I also have re-defined awakening. I have no clue what it is anymore.

I told you that these wants were a concern.

[Elena]

Writing out loud here. So what you are suggesting is that there is really no self, there never was. So all the fear and fretting about would seem funny. When I thought this, the me feeling came on right away. But its not ame feeling is it? I don't understand how can these things be personal, or have that click about them.

I was suggesting it, but by looking you saw it, and by the way, you didn't die. Baby doesn't have "I" - baby does not have this thought in the mind at all, yet, baby thrives, lives, does its functions. So we all, just adults so identified with thought, label "I" - they think they are separate entities inside the body. Baby does not have "I thought, does not feel separate. Baby is a collection of movements, feelings, sensations. Sensations of hanger happens - baby moves toward mother. Baby does not think "I" feel hunger. At this point baby is a hanger, baby is a movement. Like flower does activity of flowering, baby does activate of babying, man does activity of maning. All just different movements of life L-i-f-i-n-g

You are doing great. Awakening is just this - awakening to the reality that 'I" does not exist, it's a lie, illusion, story, thought, lable, just like zero, university, red orb. So if i tell you to find red orb, you won't go - you know - it does not exist, but here we needed to look and look and see that "I" does not exist. Sense of 'I" exist, "I" not. So now if I ask you to find 'I" would you look for long try to find it?

Awakening and liberation we are talking about from illusion of "I". It's not liberation from all the shit, emotions, troubles. But said that, all that will start to move out, and you can notice inflammation of the emotions, like you were describing. Just see them for what they are, and they will pass. They are not personal, just like nothing is personal - there is not persona, no separate entity, so all is a movement of life, and in this particular embodiment it's moves. molds through emotions, feelings. Let it move and see the movement for what it is. It will be molding, and some staff gets worked out and dissipate with time.

I want to ask you these questions. Read, see what comes and write:

Is there you in any shape or form in the reality?

How does it feel to be awakened?

[Elena]

waiting...

[Panos]

Post was not posted. I will look some more. Still on it...

[Panos]

Elena I am under extreme emotional turmoil. I am full of resentment towards my immediate circle. I am just man, its bad. I hate it all. Not all. I guess I am expecting the realization if not having an "I" to awaken me to the ability to go after my dreams. I don't have to get everything I expect, but at least to attempt. I am not even attempting. The looking for the I has become an almost constant affair. I no longer drink or smoke, I just think all the time..

I woke up today and in my sleep I was wondering where I was, is there shape, how can that be and so on. The major fear is that if I see there is no me, then I will not be able to pursuit and save others that I worry or care about. I don't mean save them from themselves but I have several close bonds with many, I don't want to lose them. So as we continue I need more clarification of what occurs after one realizes. I know that once I am on the other side I might not worry about this, but I would spank my future persons behind if he didn't keep his promises to provide.

I don't know... Ok.. So whats next.. Your questions

There is no form of my self anywhere, He feels like an emotional ghost. No shape either. But I don't see it as not real. It is a mental aspect, imaginary but a real imagination. Will keep looking at that.

As for how does it feel. I guess you are attempting to tell that it would not feel different. Well I disagree. It will feel different. I wont be different. but life will be different. Those are my expectations. so to answer your 2nd question, I will let you know what it didn't feel like after I realize it.

More questions, more focus. Choice is still big in my mind... ;