The Gate

Hello,

My name is Susan. I have been a spiritual seeker since 2000 on a fairly devotional path and was introduced to non-duality ideas in 1996. I was very struck by the idea that there is no me in reality and alot of stuff has fallen away since. I actually experienced some depression around the pointlessness of all my efforts after hearing this message. In spite of my resonance with non-duality there is still a firm sense of me, for what seems like, most of the day. On investigation it seems that the sense of I comes mainly from thoughts (only some of which seem to come from nowhere - others seem to come more at my discretion) and also from tension in the body as I seem to hold myself together to manage life somehow. I did have some insight after reading Gateless Gatecrashers that these powerful sensations of tension in the body do not have to be attached to an I, but I'm still drawn back into identification by these bodily tensions.

I have some beliefs that say I will never realise this truth - its for more dedicated seekers who meditate regularly and eat a good diet etc etc. I certainly wonder whether a quiet, focussed and disciplined mind is helpful in seeing the no self. So I often enter into these investigations in a half-hearted way not really believing that I will see the truth of no self. I guess I am also rather attached to me since it seems that my whole life has been built up around this concept and if I consider that there is no I, alot of sadness comes up around all my trying so hard to build a good life and please certain people.

So, I want to see the Truth once and for all, and ignore all this self talk which is of no consttructive help to me. I do think it will take time for me, so will require a patient guide. Is there a guide out there willing to take me on and challenge my blindness please? I am very impressed by the work going on here and very appreciative and touched by the generosity of all the contributors.

Much Love,

Susan

Hey Susan,

pleasure to meet you and good to see you're being honest with yourself thus far. It's good to see the story of the "I can't get there and that."

It is just a story, the story the you makes up to keep you from looking at it.


I will work with you if you'll have me!

While we are going through this, I just ask a couple things of you.

-Answer the questions I give you as close to 100% honesty as you can so we can flush out those beliefs that aren't working.
- Stop all reading and viewing of extraneous spiritual stuff of what to "expect" out of this
- Reply at least once a day even if you feel you haven't made any progress. I will take the same care for you.
- Stick with it no matter what stories are coming up to "discourage you."

Well... that's the only criteria I have for now for us. I'll help you crack it for yourself... but first let me ask you:

What are you expecting out of this?

I did have some insight after reading Gateless Gatecrashers that these powerful sensations of tension in the body do not have to be attached to an I, but I'm still drawn back into identification by these bodily tensions.

What is saying that these bodily tensions are yours or you? Does there have to be a you for body tension to be there? What is saying they are?

Hi Zenkitties,

I'm so excited to have you guiding me from over there in California! Thank you. It feels so real and possible somehow. I love your criteria and really want to stick to them best I can. So please pull me up when I slip.

Ok, From this exchange I'm expecting to see that I'm not running the show. This, I expect, will get me into more of a flow than the jarring I often feel, with more acceptance of experiences as part of the richness of life. I expect to lose self-consiousness which will stop me from keep checking 'how am i doing', 'what do they think of me' etc etc. So more spontaneity, authenticity and less fear and anxiety. I expect to be more open and less defensive and more comfortable with my character. And I definitely have been expecting to lose this tension in the body,although it is starting to sink in slowly that the tensions can stay even when/if I'm not running the show.

So its pretty loaded.

In answer to your questions about bodily tensions, I have always in my memory had a strong sense that I need to be in control of my body, to hold it together to ensure I am always civilised and don't embarrass myself by, for example, belching and farting in public. Lol. I had a realisation some time ago that my main agenda in life is not to embarrass myself. What a bloody waste of a good life!! So I assume that if I let go, my body will let go too, much to my embarrassment. But when I look these bodily tensions are there whether my sense of myself is there or not. When I stop thoughts and relax the idea of me, the tensions remain. So its an old old association that doesn't stand up to investigation.

These are my first responses to your questions. I plan to be with your questions on my twice daily dog walks. So I'll see if anything else comes up then.

Thanks again for your commitment.

I just want to add to my observations in my previous post. When I notice tension, say across the shoulders, i have fleeting thoughts such as my shoulders, an image of my shoulders and judgements such as tension is bad, I should relax.

Hi Zenkitties,

I'm so excited to have you guiding me from over there in California! Thank you. It feels so real and possible somehow. I love your criteria and really want to stick to them best I can. So please pull me up when I slip.

Hey Susan! I am glad that we are going to be able to look at this together. You can call me Nick if you like (or zenkitties if you like that name better! :))

I think Alfred from Batman Begins says it best when he asks Bruce, "why do we fall Bruce?" and Bruce replies with,"so we can pick ourselves back up."

In time you will be able to do this, but for now it will be my pleasure to help you back on your own two feet again, to strengthen those legs so that you may never need help standing on your own again. I hope that sounds good to you. :)

Ok, From this exchange I'm expecting to see that I'm not running the show. This, I expect, will get me into more of a flow than the jarring I often feel, with more acceptance of experiences as part of the richness of life.

This seeing won't stop jarring from happening. But you will see that there is no control so the acceptance of jarring will happen. I will tell you that the richness of life will be felt but it will not exclude the "bad" experiences from happening, however bad will no longer be bad and the good will no longer be good. Both of these will be more vivid.

I expect to lose self-consiousness which will stop me from keep checking 'how am i doing', 'what do they think of me' etc etc. So more spontaneity, authenticity and less fear and anxiety. I expect to be more open and less defensive and more comfortable with my character. And I definitely have been expecting to lose this tension in the body,although it is starting to sink in slowly that the tensions can stay even when/if I'm not running the show.

What happens if those thoughts don't go away? Will you still be okay with this. They don't go as there isn't you to have control over them, however you will see through them as they are only a story that's been well crafted. Not even by a mind, just a belief, thought, idea.

In answer to your questions about bodily tensions, I have always in my memory had a strong sense that I need to be in control of my body, to hold it together to ensure I am always civilised and don't embarrass myself by, for example, belching and farting in public. Lol. I had a realisation some time ago that my main agenda in life is not to embarrass myself. What a bloody waste of a good life!! So I assume that if I let go, my body will let go too, much to my embarrassment. But when I look these bodily tensions are there whether my sense of myself is there or not. When I stop thoughts and relax the idea of me, the tensions remain. So its an old old association that doesn't stand up to investigation.

Good observation, if you know that the body is not yours and whatever that is running the show is going to regardless of whether there is "you" there is a step in the right direction.

In your direct seeing, is there a controller of the body anywhere in experience? If so, where is it?

What is the one that needs the control, what is controlling?



[quote="Susan]These are my first responses to your questions. I plan to be with your questions on my twice daily dog walks. So I'll see if anything else comes up then.

Thanks again for your commitment.[/quote]

No thank you for YOUR commitment to yourself. If you free yourself, everyone else is free. Deep gratitude for the effort being put forth. :)

Dear Nick,

I will call you Nick since that makes you seem more ordinary and accessible and this investigation is kind of about ordinary awakening somehow. Although I love the name zenkitties (made me laugh when I got your first post and reminded me of Zenbitchslap - website of Paul Hedderman) and love the piccie of your cat playing the keyboards!

I haven't managed to use the quote function successfully yet - its all a little new. So bear with me technically.

I would love to be back on my own two feet with strong legs and not need help again. Sounds almost too good to be true but I'm believing it more and more. Ive also made myself promise not to give up when I feel I'm not up to it.

Its strange that you asked what if the thoughts don't go away - last night I was reading Gateless Gatecrashers and had the realisation that the thoughts can be there along the the bodily tensions, even if I'm not around. So that would be absolutely fine with me, for the doubts etc to be there, if I can see through them. That may have happened just a little already.

Anyway on to the controller. I checked this out this morning on my dog walk. First of all I realised that if I am controlling anything to do with my body, it's not much. Most functions happen out of consciousness, eg digestion etc and many movements, eg walking and driving, happen automatically. Doesn't leave much. So what about the learning function, eg learning an instrument? This, at first, seemed to involve me but then I realised its really the brain that learns and makes new neural pathways and all that stuff which I do not control. So then I was just left with thoughts such as 'I must concentrate if I am to learn this instrument'. Now this thought isn't the concentration or learning process itself- that's clear to me. Indeed how powerful are thoughts - if at all? So I keep coming back to thoughts and, in particular, thoughts about what my body should do etc. rather than finding any controlling force in me. It does seem to me, however, whatever is in control (and no I really can't say what that is) has an immense intelligence about it. That's where I've got to and I'm stuck there with thoughts which pretend to be powerful and suggest an I all the time...

Its so nice not to get stuck on my own. Look forward to your help in getting me unstuck : )

I will call you Nick since that makes you seem more ordinary and accessible and this investigation is kind of about ordinary awakening somehow. Although I love the name zenkitties (made me laugh when I got your first post and reminded me of Zenbitchslap - website of Paul Hedderman) and love the piccie of your cat playing the keyboards!

I haven't managed to use the quote function successfully yet - its all a little new. So bear with me technically.

Fair enough Susan, pleasure to meet you! :)

Btw, Love Paul Hedderman, very insightful human being. As for the cute kitty. I just couldn't resist the picture. Playing the piano of all things, never seen anything like it! haha.

And oh trust me, I'm not too good with the quotes yet either haha, as you can tell. I don't usually quote people, just learned it (as to why my last post was all messed up!)

I would love to be back on my own two feet with strong legs and not need help again. Sounds almost too good to be true but I'm believing it more and more. Ive also made myself promise not to give up when I feel I'm not up to it.

Now we will try not to get caught up in story too much but i'm very glad the belief that you can do this is setting in. Intention to move through it is somewhat important (although still not under your control because there isn't a you to be in control)

It just means there is ready for a shift to be made. So that is why there is joy on this end. I can't wait to see you blossom and be on your own two feet too! :)

On to the juicy part!

Its strange that you asked what if the thoughts don't go away - last night I was reading Gateless Gatecrashers and had the realisation that the thoughts can be there along the the bodily tensions, even if I'm not around. So that would be absolutely fine with me, for the doubts etc to be there, if I can see through them. That may have happened just a little already.

Good thing because they probably wont be going away for some time. It doesn't mean however they have to be believed in or to allow them anymore power then they actually have (which is 0 power unless they are grasped to)

So then I was just left with thoughts such as 'I must concentrate if I am to learn this instrument'. Now this thought isn't the concentration or learning process itself- that's clear to me. Indeed how powerful are thoughts - if at all?

Let's take a look at this Susan, you are on to something here. Take a look in your direct experience and see, is there a you in that thought anywhere going on. Is it a product of other beliefs that are there?

Do thoughts have power if there is nothing to control them, if they are just happening. They rise, are noted, and fall. Can there even be a you to manifest them to rise, and then will them to fall away. If so, then wouldn't suffering be iradicated immediatley from that human organism.

I will leave you with an analogy that may help you see this more clearly. I actually did a blog post on it:
http://liberatedself.wordpress.com/tag/ ... band-ball/

I will tell you in short that thoughts are empty in nature, they aren't any different than anything else. EVERYTHING is empty in nature. Hence why suffering is, is because the story is full of stuff that implies that everything has to be something. But it's a paradox. Empty but Full (Space [not time/space])

Sorry I've been working on not trying to be too teachy, so bare with me. We'll leave it at that for now.

Your Goal:

Look to see in thoughts if there is a you anywhere in thoughts.

Look to see where that intent of "i must concentrate" comes from.

Its so nice not to get stuck on my own. Look forward to your help in getting me unstuck : )

I look forward to you getting unstuck, it will happen. But it won't be by my means, you will be doing the work. (and have been)

Love the rubber band ball analogy. And that's what I'm looking for - to be unravelled. But the investigations are getting trickier!

I've just waffled for 1/2 hour and then deleted the waffle. I will sleep on your enquiries and get back to you tomorrow afternoon. Tiring day.

Good night and sweet dreams.

Good morning Nick,

Please - no apologies about teaching or anything else. I am so truly grateful for all of your input into this process and need the help.

You say 'I look foward to you getting unstuck, it will happen'. Are you really that sure? I have some doubts coming up after trying to look into thoughts yesterday and today. Would this be helped by years of disciplined meditation? Is it an issue of being able to focus the mind? Because when I ask myself if there is a me anywhere in thoughts, I just can't see. It all gets kind of hazy, like smoke and mirrors, and no real clarity comes.

What I did see last night was that most thoughts with a self reference such as 'I must concentrate to learn this...' brings about some sort of identification with 'me' and leads to a tightening/bracing in the body which I think strengthens my sense of I. There is a heavy sense of responsibility and anxiety that goes with that. When I changed the sentence to 'concentration must happen to learn this...', there was a relaxtion and letting go. Perhaps there is something in advaita/non-duality speak that is helpful in detaching from identification with thoughts?

Am I so identified with thoughts that I couldn't do this enquiry properly?

Anyway, when I investigated the thought 'I must concentrate to learn this...', I realised the assumption is of me being in control of this process, hence the tightening up. Is that the intent - for me to control the process. Is that what you mean by intent? God this one sentence is so loaded. And gives me the same feeling when I wake up in the monring sometimes with a horrible sensation in my stomach, which feels like I'm so responsible for my life and getting through the day. If it were true that I was in charge of my life it would be a disaster but that's the belief I am carrying around with me. Heavy man!!!

Again when I change the sentence to 'concentration must happen to learn this...' I experience a sense of let's see if concentration happens and a preference for it to do so. Much lighter.

I can see this really is going to be hard work and will take commitment to stay with it. I am going to stay with the hard stuff and try to be curious about that too and hope that investigating the hard stuff will help this process too.

Btw I'm in the UK. So there is some time difference between us.

Much love

I like to be a good student but feel I'm not doing a very good job with these investigations. Even panciking a bit that I'm not undertsanding your suggestions.

Good Morning Susan!

I just woke up from my slumber. Very cool to see your in the UK! I would love to come visit there at some point!

Are you really that sure? I have some doubts coming up after trying to look into thoughts yesterday and today. Would this be helped by years of disciplined meditation?

Yes I'm 100% sure. It's inevitable that it will happen. Maybe not in the way that "you" want it to but nonetheless. ;)

No years of disciplined meditation means nothing. Not when seeing this, you will know when you directly experience this. I wasn't a dedicated meditator myself. It just takes complete self honesty and the ability to see the reactions and relax into what the minds "panicking about".

Because when I ask myself if there is a me anywhere in thoughts, I just can't see.

GOOD! you've just experienced it for the first time maybe, or may realize you've seen this many times before but passed it up. You can't see it because IT IS NOT THERE. Get it? :)

sentence to 'concentration must happen to learn this...', there was a relaxtion and letting go.

There was a letting go because there isn't a you to concentrate. it is literally how the sentence says, concentration IS happening. Learning this IS happening. There is no YOU for it to happen to, it just is going on.

Am I so identified with thoughts that I couldn't do this enquiry properly?

You did perfectly what was suppose to of happened. You direct saw that thoughts happen on their own. There is no you there that has thoughts. They just happen, you are directly experiencing that which is why anxiousness is coming up.

It isn't about the content of the thought, that stuff is un important. Seeing there is no one. or that you do not exist. How does that make you feel when you read that?

I realised the assumption is of me being in control of this process, hence the tightening up. Is that the intent - for me to control the process.

the me controlling the process is a hindrance. because there is no you there that exists anywhere, there is going to be tension and anxiety. See it again, is there a you anywhere in the experience of controlling what is happening?

Is there a you controlling anything?

Is that what you mean by intent? God this one sentence is so loaded

intent just happens, the thought with intent just comes up and the desire for it will push it along just as it always has, even without you there. Can you see this?

responsibility is also there, it happens even without you there, no control whatsoever from you because there is no you to control how responsibility is being implemented outside of whats been programmed in that human organism.

You've amassed quite a "library of reactions" all you are seeing is how to no longer take them seriously, and no longer grasp to them because there is not a you in the center controlling. It is happening on its own.

I can see this really is going to be hard work and will take commitment to stay with it. I am going to stay with the hard stuff and try to be curious about that too and hope that investigating the hard stuff will help this process too.

It is probably the hardest thing that will ever be done. But it is worth it. Relax into everything flooding in as you do this. See the tensions and relax into them, accept them. See the frustration coming up and again, relax into them, accept them.

Btw I'm in the UK. So there is some time difference between us.

Much love

Much love to you as well :)

I like to be a good student but feel I'm not doing a very good job with these investigations. Even panciking a bit that I'm not undertsanding your suggestions.

See again how this is just part of a story going on, which really has nothing to do with you. There is no you that is not doing a very good job. I mean look, is there a you doing anything at all in experience?

Hiya Nick,

So we have a 10 hour time difference! It's evening here and mid-morning in California! And the good news is, I may have worked out how to quote, or should I say learning how to quote has happened here! Ha Ha. Yes, come to the Uk if you get fed up with too much sunshine. We specialise in grey rainy days (which I would miss now if I left England). Its a good excuse to stay in and watch films!

So pleased to hear you weren't a dedicated meditator. That gives some hope. But relaxing into what the mind is panicking about could take some practice. I really will try to bear that in mind though. I have a friend in the Uk who gives non-duality talks - he says that there's noone there who can undertake self-enquiry but he also says if there was someone to follow his advice he would say just relax. I sense that relaxtion is important in this investigation.

You can't see it because IT IS NOT THERE. Get it? :)

When I look to see if I am in thought, there is no clarity like this, it's much more hazy and very difficult to stay with the enquiry. I'm not sure I've seen that thoughts just arise on their own, at least not consistently. Some thoughts are seemingly more powerful than others in terms of drawing me in. I will stay with this investigation though, whenever I can.

intent just happens, the thought with intent just comes up and the desire for it will push it along just as it always has, even without you there. Can you see this?

Yes, yes I see this. Hooray. Intent is just a thought, desire may also arise and action then may take place. But its not my intent or desire or action. I can see that when I look specifically for that.

But then I get back into feeling I have to control my life to ensure that my family are happy, and I earn a living and the dog gets walked, fed and vaccinated etc.

Seeing there is no one. or that you do not exist. How does that make you feel when you read that?

As I read this now, I feel some relaxation, less tension in the body, the energy moves from my head into the body so i feel more embodied. Then a little sadness arises - what was all the past effort and tension about - what a waste of energy. And immense gratitude for being looked after by life. Bit nervous, what if relaxation means the dog doesn't get fed, and my husband gets fed up with me and divorces me? Back to identification and fear of loss.

is there a you anywhere in the experience of controlling what is happening? Is there a you controlling anything?

I will continue to investigate this...may take some unravelling...Will try to get back afresh tomorrow on this

is there a you doing anything at all in experience?

Ditto

So I'm having an early night, since my hubbie is working late, and that gives me the opportunity to continue reading the Gateless Gatecrashers and hope that more insight comes about all this. I will report back tomorrow. Have a lovely Saturday in California.

Yay you figured it out! Nicely done with the quoting! :)

I was actually just soaking up the sun today after a movie. It was very refreshing. But I love the rain too! So peaceful it is.

My meditation was very sporadic, and I even totally quit when I had realized what i'm taking you through so it isn't necessary by any means.

he says that there's noone there who can undertake self-enquiry but he also says if there was someone to follow his advice he would say just relax. I sense that relaxtion is important in this investigation.

yes, relaxing into things is acceptance and surrender. Those things are the bridge to love-compassion. Being open and receptive to what is. That is no longer being able to grab hold of a story. (it does still happen from time to time but for very short bursts)

But then I get back into feeling I have to control my life to ensure that my family are happy, and I earn a living and the dog gets walked, fed and vaccinated etc.

These things will most likely still happen, except there won't be anyone doing them. They will get done but there will be no doer. Nothing changes, you are just pointing out the obvious. There isn't a you controlling anything, it's all just happening. It doesn't mean nothing gets done. It just means everything gets done without you, just as it always has haha.

what a waste of energy.

Just misdirected energy that could be used for other things! :)

And immense gratitude for being looked after by life. Bit nervous, what if relaxation means the dog doesn't get fed, and my husband gets fed up with me and divorces me? Back to identification and fear of loss.

there is no one to be looked after, its life taking care of itself. dogs may or may not get fed, and husband may or may not get fed up with the change in story.

usually this stuff doesn't fold in on itself, really its worst case that were to happen (this is referred to dark night). What usually happens is for instance, you tell a kid that santa doesn't exist and show him he doesn't. Then poof he is gone, but christmas is still celebrated is it not? Love and presents and closenss is still shared. Maybe even more closeness to your child (i don't suggest telling your kids santa doesn't exist if you have any haha).

All you're looking for is seeing there isn't a you actually running the show, and then life can move on without the blockage of "I need to control my life." What is that anyway.... "I need to control my life." THAT, What is that, who or what is exclaiming that?

So I'm having an early night, since my hubbie is working late, and that gives me the opportunity to continue reading the Gateless Gatecrashers and hope that more insight comes about all this. I will report back tomorrow. Have a lovely Saturday in California.

Thanks you for the well wishes, may you have a wonderful Sunday morning! :)

Good morning California!

The sun is shining here and it's a scorcher. Makes everyone a little crazy - you know 'only mad dogs and englishmen go out in the midday sun' and all that.

Once again gratitude is coming up for you spending so much time on helping freedom happen here (notice the non-duality speak - it does help relaxtion of the identification with an I). I wish my parents had spoke in non-duality way when I was growing up and maybe I'd never have taken on this bloody awful sense of self in the first place.

All you're looking for is seeing there isn't a you actually running the show, and then life can move on without the blockage of "I need to control my life." What is that anyway.... "I need to control my life." THAT, What is that, who or what is exclaiming that?

Ok I had a look again at control. What came up was thoughts again of how events are often connected to other events in a sequence, cause and effect, and how life seems to be full of coherent patterns. This gives me a definite sense that I must be in charge of causing these events, patterns - they are too coherent, sequential, logical for noone to be controlling them. But then I recall Ilona,in Gateless Gatrecrashers, saying that universitys' are not real and I thought about the last organisation I worked for (which wasn't always such a coherent pattern!) and how it didn't belong to anybody, it just arose, and one day will disappear. Noone has controlled its existence.

So I can see that patterns arise and coherentish structures arise temporarily for non-personal organisations. Harder for more personal patterns in my life, like my personal career where I feel responsible and bad for not being more successful etc. So I have an insight that feels helpful (or an insight arises) and it isn't translated into other areas of this life that feel more personal - uuuugh. I even had a sense today, while looking at the control thing, that my sense of self was hiding in a corner in the dark watching me have these insights, smiling smugly, confident in the knowlegde that it will just turn up elsewhere in disguise and it won't be seen through. How to kill the bugger once and for all? But there is no bugger to kill. Viscious circles.

Will continue to investigate who is running this show, the career, realtionships etc etc.

How did you come to see this? Was it with a guide like this, or some other way. You do not need to answer if you don't wish to. No problem.

Good morning California!

The sun is shining here and it's a scorcher. Makes everyone a little crazy - you know 'only mad dogs and englishmen go out in the midday sun' and all that.

Haha, what is a scorcher for you?! We just got over our 105 degree days here where I live. We are finally hitting cooler 92 degree days at the moment and slowly coming down. :)

Once again gratitude is coming up for you spending so much time on helping freedom happen here (notice the non-duality speak - it does help relaxtion of the identification with an I). I wish my parents had spoke in non-duality way when I was growing up and maybe I'd never have taken on this bloody awful sense of self in the first place.

Gratitude is much appreciated and of course reflected back, for there is much gratitude that you've come to free yourself.

Yes the non-dual speak helps, but also not necessary once its seen through for once and for all. Once you directly experience that you don't exist as a separation from what is going on right here right now.

Ok I had a look again at control. What came up was thoughts again of how events are often connected to other events in a sequence, cause and effect, and how life seems to be full of coherent patterns. This gives me a definite sense that I must be in charge of causing these events, patterns - they are too coherent, sequential, logical for noone to be controlling them. But then I recall Ilona,in Gateless Gatrecrashers, saying that universitys' are not real and I thought about the last organisation I worked for (which wasn't always such a coherent pattern!) and how it didn't belong to anybody, it just arose, and one day will disappear. Noone has controlled its existence.

Yes this can be seen through the rubber band ball analogy. No one actually owns that institute. All a bunch of small running parts giving the appearance of a bigger entity that doesn't actually exist.

This is true with you, look at this now. Many small sensations, beliefs, ideas, concepts. Even the human body is this way, cells, organs, atoms at its finest levels, creating something that seems bigger than it is.

It all comes together to give the appearance of something yeah? That's why it seems so real, because it looks solid. But if you observe and investigate, it is not actually solid at all. Not even the breath is solid. Not even vision is solid and continuitious.

Harder for more personal patterns in my life, like my personal career where I feel responsible and bad for not being more successful etc. So I have an insight that feels helpful (or an insight arises) and it isn't translated into other areas of this life that feel more personal - uuuugh.

So what is creating that feeling of wanting YOU to be more successful? Thought you say? Just another story added on.

Why do you feel responsible, what belief gives that sense? Again what BELIEF, not a you. Just because the belief is there doesn't prove you exist.

I even had a sense today, while looking at the control thing, that my sense of self was hiding in a corner in the dark watching me have these insights, smiling smugly, confident in the knowlegde that it will just turn up elsewhere in disguise and it won't be seen through.

More story, the mind will continue to do this, until you look down and see there isn't a you in that feel or story that is being narrated. The Content isn't important at all, look to see if the you is in any of the content and you will see the content is empty of any value.

Please look Susan.

I know this seems redundant but there is a method to the madness. I promise. :)

How did you come to see this? Was it with a guide like this, or some other way. You do not need to answer if you don't wish to. No problem.

Probably in much the same way as you (maybe not). When I first entered College, I started reading a lot of eastern philosophy and got the question, "Who Am I" stuck in my noggin. Started meditating a lot off and on, on it. Had times where I felt as if I was going crazy.

Started breaking down beliefs that weren't suiting me at all. I read ALOT, where I didn't use to as a child haha.

So lots of teachers, just not live ones. It really doesn't matter how it's transmitted, as long as its got. More potential for a live teacher however to meet you where you are.

Then one day I read a blog post that basically said you don't exist. I looked at it while I was in the shower (this was actually where I did a lot of contemplating haha) and pop, perceptual shift.

I won't say i'm enlightened, although when it first happened I probably would have. Stepping beyond the gate opens up so many fun possibilities.

Then I went through a very heavy dark night after that, that rocked my world for a little while. Now I'm here helping because intent to help and the intent to be free is here.

All those things you mentioned, will become meaningless, but don't mistake meaningless for worthless. Career and Relationships will continue so there is no need for fear to be generated, however it might because there are still old beliefs in there that wont match up with these new insights.

Take another look at the rubber band analogy. :)

I hope this helps Susan

Making that progress moment to moment.

Namaste.

I guess you're in bed by now. And I haven't fully absorsbed your last message but I will print it off with the others and read it thoroughly but it will have to be later today because I am off to see my elderly mother for the day.

But I was going to add a little post following my dog walk this morning which connects to the rubber band ball. I realised that I feel alot of doubt (maybe more so than fear) about seeing through my I. Doubts about being up to the task blah blah blah. And I recalled Ilona, or maybe ELena, suggesting that someone faces their fear or doubt, so I tried this and it kind of unravelled like the rubber band ball into elements of thoughts, beliefs and labels. It felt so real at the time but more distant as I'm writing this. Its there for a moment - a sense of unravelling and freedom but soon gone again.

I get your pointing about me being made up fo so many elements too, like an organisation. But what about this sense of being alive no matter what happens - the I am I gues - does that point to anything? Didn't Nisagadarta's Guru tell him to stay with the I am, which he did and realised freedom? This brings me onto something that I get stuck on. Some teachers say there is no self and others call realisation the Big Self rather than the little self. Can you clarify this point? Or are you going crazy that this is all theoretical and not me looking.

I will look best I can I promise.