Any liberator ready for a real challenge?

Postby **Thorzen** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 1:17 pm

I'm still here, available with all my energy and honesty to be liberated, but I don't think it's going to be easy. Is anyone up for the challenge?

YouTube · Postby **eputkonen** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:20 pm

Sure.

But, why don't you think it's going to be easy? Don't you realize that thought is one of the obstacles?

YouTube · Postby **eputkonen** » Sat Oct 22, 2011 3:33 pm

And what is wrong with your current conversation with Garsius Tyla...I don't think it is right to start another conversation when you are already in one.

Postby **Ilona** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:49 am

Why do you think that it's not going to be easy? All we are doing here is making you look. Once you look for yourself seeing happens. Are you saying that you are not gonna look? Then why are you here?

Postby **longgone1** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:41 am

It occurs to me that the problem may be that you are already liberated (or at least much closer than you think) .. either you just need one tiny push or else to be tested by the liberators here to see if it already happened. By the way you talk it sounds like you may be already there. Your accounts sound somewhat like my seeing .. I think if we are honest there is the seeing and then there is the small I and its thoughts running on .. It only needs confidence to realise that your true self is now sitting in awareness or the real I .. but you still have to use words (which are intimately connected with duality and therefore the small I) to communicate .. It seems like after liberation there is a period of time for this to become clear and to be able to sit in the one while allowing the other.
I hope this makes sense and you may like to ask to be tested ?

Postby **Garsius Tyla** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:49 am

I agree with longgone1 here. Thorzon saw truth already. But after thoughts came back, and since he cannot find that sweet self anymore, mind have nothing to do, just begin to play here. Since he had high expectations about what liberation should be, now his acting here is like some kind of mind protest. Not happen mate. No way back.

Postby **longgone1** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:42 am

Cool Garsius .. A little quote here from Nisargadatta might help Thorsen ;
"Turn your mind inside out. Overlook the movable and you will find yourself to be the ever-present, changeless reality, inexpressible, but solid like a rock."

Postby **Thorzen** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:17 pm

I know i'm not liberated, still attached to thoughts, still emotional chaos, still dependant on desires and wants, still not happy with the moment as it is.

The reason I don't think it will be easy is not because I don't want it to happen, it's because I myself have been working on this for a long time and it has not been happening.

Postby **Ilona** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:25 pm

ok, so what do you expect that needs to happen?

Postby **longgone1** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:40 pm

Can I just say Thorzen that one of the major differences here to what you have been doing alone occurs because working with someone else requires trust .. there is an energy change which happens because you're not doing it on your own any more. I'm gonna butt out now because I'm quite new .. but my advice is to just go with someone here you trust .. It worked for me with Ilona .. she's a real expert and not feisty and competitive ..
Go for it ! Good luck :)
(see you on the "other side")

Postby **Thorzen** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 2:13 pm

Ilona, I expect there to be a shift from my current state of being, to a state of being that is different, i'm not sure different in what way, but that I am happy, or no longer need to be happy, just that in some way, I am content and untouched by the world..

Postby **Pratityasamutpada** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:22 pm

If I may also be so bold as to butt in: I also "knew" I wasn't liberated when I came here, for the same reasons you mention.

Expectations are mind-made, so mind comes in to say that there should be something different in the content of my experience. I'm not trying to answer the question of whether you are liberated or not, just saying don't take such beliefs at face value. Those are just more thoughts.

You'll fall for the trap of trying to work something out with thoughts even after you've seen that there is no self. But if you can see how those expectations of yours are also just thoughts, regardless of whether they're true or false, then you know the difference between observing and thinking.

That "mechanism" of thought will always work the same, whether or not you've seen that it works without a self. How the body reacts to it will also be the same. Because it has always worked this way, and it always will.

So now I'll leave you in Ilona's capable hands :).

Postby **Pratityasamutpada** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 3:28 pm

Expectations are mind-made, so mind comes in to say that there should be something different in the content of my experience. I'm not trying to answer the question of whether you are liberated or not, just saying don't take such beliefs at face value. Those are just more thoughts.

By the way, don't take this from me, or you'll only be doing more thinking about it. Confirm in your own experience, don't weigh any arguments but see for yourself if it's true or false.

Postby **Ilona** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 4:13 pm

It's not about shift of state. If state you are looking for, then I must say you are expecting for something to happen. Nothing will happen, promisse, no bright lights, no angels coming to visit, it's not like that.

Imagine you are holding a spoon in your hand. Close your eyes and visualise it as vivid as you can, feel the cold, the weight, the shape.

Then open your eyes. Is there a spoon? Has a state changed because you see now that spoon was imagined? It's very similar here.
Of course belief in self is not the same as quick imaginary spoon exercise, but hope you get what I'm saying.

Now tell me, is there a separate being 'me' behind the word me?

Postby **Thorzen** » Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:39 pm

If there is no switch of state why pursue it? I am not pursuing it for some ego-gratification, I am pursuing it to reach a state of contentness. If liberation changes nothing, then how am I liberated from anything?

To answer your question, a feeling of identity is behind the word me, an identity of past happenings, and future projections. The me uses my body to create distressing emotions which disturbs me, and ruins my peace of mind.

The me is apparent in that without it, I would have no reason to do anything. The me is my reason to do and act as it is now, without it, what would happen, I don't know. The me is something running from the fear of death and wanting to survive, although death in this life is certain. It is something that because of it's original misunderstanding of life, always creates conflicts and problems because unlike life, it does not see things as they are, and this creates a conflict tension between the "me" and reality. Since reality is truth, and the me is false, the me is always bruised and damaged, which resolves in my constant inner conflict and distress.

A battle fought inside me which I have to endure and observe while constantly losing consciousness and believing I am the one fighting this battle, which is ultimately against myself and life. That's what is behind the word "me".