Axis of doing

[pdsaar]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand "seeing there is no real, inherent 'self'" to be a recognition that the thoughts, perceptions, emotions, etc that swirl around an apparent center to imply a self for which those things belong or have their founding. The recognition would be that the center is an implied assumption that that doesn't objectively stand on its own.

What are you looking for at LU?
I've been a seeker for many years. I'm very versed in traditional, direct pointing, radical non-duality and other "lineages" and teachings. I see the axis that runs through all of them which is the seekers question "to do or not do" nearly all teachers would say the questioner is the illusion but they part on entertaining the illusion with a technique to "tire out the seeking energy"or proclaiming the illusion of self at the root by stating clearly that "there is nobody" that could do anything about it or that the question belongs to nobody. They seem to differ on whether the technique or pointing is over prescribing.
Why the above matters for why I'm here is that I find myself at various times standing on a belief that "there is no self" that is an impediment and unhelpful. OR I find that a technique has become the seeking identity or practice that ends up becoming its own impediment. Joining LU, I hope that seeing the compendium of seekers aggregated in one space to show that to me. Its not one teaching/message over the other its the crux that lays on the axis and that the answer or non answer to "should i practice" or "should i not practice" has no answer.. but its all academic.. being here with direct experience should prove it.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I expect contradictions. I expect to hear things that contradict what I've learned. That I will likely be held up in an academic mental gymnastics trying to sort teachings and compartmentalize things. I expect the guidance will point of those traps, that I'll surrender to them and then regress. I expect that there to be quiet frustration and confusion on my side and I say I get something and then fall back into thoughts that completely contradict my declared knowledge that I have taken for myself. I expect that I will ask what to do, and be given or not given some practice, that I'll follow it after for a day or two and then question it while remembering back to something some radical non-duality teacher said or something Ramana Maharshi said.
I dont mean to make this sound pessimistic. It's just an honest reporting of the pattern that my mind seems to take. I would expect a good guided session to point out those traps though, imperfectly, and then for me to wrestle with them and integrate them over a period of time.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I have years of meditation, self-inquiry, surrender, headlessway experiments, etc. All followed imperfectly. I've had long devout periods where the practice became the identity. I have had long periods of no practice just watching videos with direct pointing happening from a teacher. I've had one on ones with teachers and in person group meetings. So I have quite a bit of experience but I havent been practicing self-inquiry at every waking moment for years on end continuously.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

[poppyseed]

Hi pdsaar
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are you in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
9

Why only 9?
Love
Rali

[pdsaar]

Hi Rali,

Wonderful to meet you and thank you for being my guide; you can call me Pete. I have read your message and understand and agree to the terms and methods. I a

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.

I have read through the FAQs :)

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation.

Daily cadence works great!

Why only 9?

Good question. I didn't answer 11 because I thought it was on a scale of 10. An 11 out of 10 would communicate enthusiasm but for my person I'd feel a little in-genuine to say that I'm more willing than the maximum.I didn't answer 10 out of 10 because I can't answer for the deepest recesses of the mind... somewhere there is likely some resistance and I couldn't confirm there was not.
Sorry for the long winded response, but I wanted to explain that I was trying to be as honest as possible. I'm at an 11 for enthusiasm, 10 for effort, but reserve 9 for the unknown unknowns.

Anyways, lets begin!

Thanks,
Pete

[pdsaar]

What time zone are you in?

Forgot to answer this initially... I'm in Chicago: CST, Central Standard Time; UTC−6

[pdsaar]

What time zone are you in?

Forgot to answer this initially... I'm in Chicago: CST, Central Standard Time; UTC−6

Wait... CST (UTC-6) starts early November to mid-March. So until then I'm CDT, Central Daylight Time; UTC−5

[poppyseed]

Hi Pete
Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

Wait... CST (UTC-6) starts early November to mid-March. So until then I'm CDT, Central Daylight Time; UTC−5

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

I'm at an 11 for enthusiasm, 10 for effort, but reserve 9 for the unknown unknowns.

Yes, that question is designed to measure enthusiasm and effort. This inquiry requires a bit of dedication in the correspondence more or less every day until we finish. This is not about rigid adherence; exceptions (vacations, times when something else is required, etc.) are fine. Ultimately, we will be guided by a flow beyond our decisions and imagination. So what we are checking in with here, is if this type of engagement feels right and is possible for you at the moment?

Anyways, let’s begin! :)
First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[pdsaar]

Hi Rali!

Again, thank you so much! I have so much gratitude for you. It's very touching that you take your time, free of charge, to meet a total stranger and guide them. I looked forward to your response all day and got very excited to see the notification come in =)

QUICK ITEMS

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic.

• Done! I am subscribed =)

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we'll manage

• Do we eventually talk 1:1 over video/voice chat? Just curious if the time difference matters much. I can make myself more available as needed.

So what we are checking in with here, is if this type of engagement feels right and is possible for you at the moment?

• Yep, that makes sense! This absolutely feels right, and I couldn't be more enthusiastic or motivated. I've been seeking for many years, and for whatever feelings are worth, I've noticed straining starting to leave, authenticity in the search increasing, and more genuine inquiry showing up.

YOUR QUESTIONS

1. What will be different when you realize there's no separate self?

• I've been told that life and appearances will stay largely the same. That the realization will be of what is already true and not a state change, but that if there is any apparent shift, it is in perspective: the background awareness/space becomes the foreground, and the apparent happenings emerge out of that with no special existence of their own.
  
  If this is more about my personal understanding of what will happen... I'll be honest, I simply don't know, but I trust what I've been told.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

• I expect the mind will connect back to several instances in my childhood where there was a kind of "unknowing." I expect the mind to feel a kind of nostalgia realized. I expect some surprise and a bit of confusion as the mind contracts and relaxes in the throes of asserting itself as the primordial identity, and yet a quiet clarity starting to take hold.
  
  I do not expect this to change my life or personality in some practical way. What I don't know is whether this will be a slow drip or a quantum shift... maybe something in between, or both being true at the same time.

3. What do you want not to happen?

• I'm a bit concerned about reaching for something I want, and the mind packaging it up and owning it. Like some apparent gap is seen, the mind reaches for it and says, "I'm in the gap, isn't this wonderful? So this is what it's like?!" and now I'm the owner of some experience. I don't want a mental delusion to assert itself and call some object the truth.

4. What are you hoping for?

• Such a funny question when you think about it. "I" have many hopes, and yet I understand intellectually that none of them actually make any difference here. But experientially, my hopes would be for things like:
  • Not being so self-conscious or neurotic
  • That the mind would stop arresting itself all the time by cutting itself down in doubt
  • That the search for some transcendent purpose or meaning would quiet

5. What is missing?

• Honestly, I don't think something is missing so much as something is added and misunderstood: a deep desire "to know." That is what drives the seeking and what frames so much of my experience as suffering.
  
  I used to think the reason I was miserable was that I didn't know all the mysteries of life, and it filled me with angst. If I just knew, I could assuage the doubts and fears, because the path of my life could be changed to the "right" path. I've caught myself saying things quietly to myself when wrestling with the mystery, like "I just need to know" or "I just want to know." Or if I've accomplished something or am trying to stay on track, a nervous "So now what?" inevitably comes up. An incessant incompleteness, no matter what I do or don't know.
  
  To be clear, it's not that accomplishment or learning isn't satisfying in the ways it should be. It's just that there is a nag that they are not everything, or not truly the endgame.
  
  In the last year or so, though, I've started to have the insight that the nag "to know" is likely the thing that is added, and the issue (if we can call it an issue) is the existential drive "to know." If I delve a bit deeper and borrow from non-dual teachings, I'd go further and say this is a need of a mind with an apparent center that thinks it's separate and distinct.

Thank you so much!
Pete

[poppyseed]

Hi Pete

It’s my pleasure talking to you! :)

Do we eventually talk 1:1 over video/voice chat? Just curious if the time difference matters much. I can make myself more available as needed.

Not really. I just want to know so I know when to expect your reply - morning or evening …

Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I'm a bit concerned about reaching for something I want, and the mind packaging it up and owning it. Like some apparent gap is seen, the mind reaches for it and says, "I'm in the gap, isn't this wonderful? So this is what it's like?!" and now I'm the owner of some experience. I don't want a mental delusion to assert itself and call some object the truth.

The fact that you are mentioning that shows that there is a recognition of what is thought and what is actual experience. We’ll definitely look at this in more detail…

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work

Love
Rali

[pdsaar]

Hi Rali!

QUICK ITEMS

Not really. I just want to know so I know when to expect your reply - morning or evening …

• Understood! Yeah, I get your message about 8 hours after you send it. I'll work through any questions and exercises and should have it back to you before your morning starts.

Is that OK with you?

• It is ok. This might be something I wrestle with a bit, but I think with you there reminding me not to cling and to let go of the expectations as they assert themselves, then I WILL let go.

YOUR QUESTIONS

If you look for the I, what is there?

• I close my eyes and look for the "I," or look for the sense of "me." There is just darkness, blankness. There are also sensations in the facial area, like slight muscle movements and tensions, where there is also a slight image or mental model of what I think my face looks like, located and superimposed over those sensations of the face. The image and sensations feel like a live mask.
  
  There are also eye movements that seem aligned to a kind of attending focus point that moves around investigating and pulling away. Tending and retreating from various points along this living mask, with thoughts asking or asserting if this is me. There is also some conceptualization trying to assert that it's not just one point, it's the coherence of the whole image that is me. There is then an apparent relaxation of that effort that stares straight at the blankness. The mind then says this is not me and starts trying to turn back toward the eye area, or to look from where the apparent looking is happening... some straining, and then looking back to the blankness and trying to stare through it. Then a widening of that looking and trying to hold everything equally.
  
  This sort of repeats each time I look. Sometimes I settle into a kind of cathartic non-looking at anything, realize I'm zoning out, and look again for the source of me, and inevitably I think the strongest contraction is my face or around it. I see how that can't be me since it's just sensations and feelings, but it's like a habit of the mind, and it just comes to rest on a sort of public/private boundary layer. Looking more internal is just more sensations in the head or chest; looking out is more perceptions and objects.
  
  I've exhausted the looking at this point... years of it, and this is pretty much what I've come up with. There just doesn't seem to be any distinguishable source of I. The closest thing is some kind of mental movement or energetic push as a thought that says "I am" emerges for a moment.

If I say there's no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

• Silence. A looking with no apparent looker. Even saying that looking is happening feels like too much to say, and it's only after the fact. Really, it's just the question that stands there with nobody to actually answer it or even entertain it.
  
  This is a magical question in a sense, because it just asks all that to take a seat, but when the ones that would answer are gone, there is just a some-thing (the question) that sits there inert. Who would there even be to know it's a question? ...very interesting.

Where exactly did you look?

• LOL I don't know. "I" didn't look anywhere. "I" was asked to sit down and then there was nothing happening... It's like the mind jumps in from time to time and says, "Well, there's a computer there... oh, and look, there's vision and it sees something."
  
  I don't know, it's strange. The mind seems to have to comment for something to be real and seen for it to feel anchored.

What exactly did you find?

• Nothing really. There was no agent of finding, so there was no reaching and nothing to return with "empty".

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

• I think I ran with most of this in my first answer. But I'll expand here. There are also doubts about whether I am looking in the right place or not.. the mind continues to ferment and compound on what the question is pointing at. It widens, narrows the view, it traces the sound by distance. I'll go through the different senses and try to feel the boundary of them and where they truely land and if that is or feels like me. I think the feelings and doubt are the biggest obstacle which feels hilarious talking about it like that and is mostly at the time of this writing seen to be an apparent obstacle, but there are times where they really feel difficult. Feelings like "im not getting this", "this is too hard", "how far away am I from getting this", etc. I know it makes no sense though and during those time where it is apparently difficult that intellectual knowledge is no consolation.

Thank you so much!
Pete

[poppyseed]

Hi Pete

Thank you for your honest reply. It gives me an idea where to begin.

I've exhausted the looking at this point... years of it, and this is pretty much what I've come up with. There just doesn't seem to be any distinguishable source of I.

Shifting is different from not finding a self. Not finding something doesn’t prove that it doesn’t exist. You simply couldn’t find it. In the shift, it is positively seen that there is no self.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises…
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory). There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[pdsaar]

Hi Rali!

QUICK ITEMS

You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

• Agreed.

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way.

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

• Perfectly clear.

YOUR QUESTIONS

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?)

• No, an apple is just a concept or a label. There is just tasting, seeing, etc
  
  Really, there are just sensations and perceptions. All that can be said is "tasting is happening" or "seeing is happening." Even calling it sweet, or red, or crisp are labels too.

Is there really an 'apple' here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT 'apple'?

• No, there is just color appearing and a thought that is attaching a word/descriptor/label.

Can 'apple' be found in actual experience?

• No, "an apple" can't be found in actual experience. Only the apparition of a thought rising that may or may not contain labels like "apple," "red," "sweet," descriptors, etc., and the senses tasting, feeling, seeing directly. Anything extra, anything packaging those things up, is not directly experienced.

Thank you so much!
Pete

[poppyseed]

Hi Pete
Wonderful!!

No, "an apple" can't be found in actual experience. Only the apparition of a thought rising that may or may not contain labels like "apple," "red," "sweet," descriptors, etc., and the senses tasting, feeling, seeing directly. Anything extra, anything packaging those things up, is not directly experienced.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Now that you know how to look let’s quickly look at “body” and “body parts”

There are also sensations in the facial area, like slight muscle movements and tensions, where there is also a slight image or mental model of what I think my face looks like, located and superimposed over those sensations of the face. The image and sensations feel like a live mask.

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?
Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Now bring attention to the head.
Without touching it, can a head actually be found in direct experience?
Is there a face? A back of the head? A centre inside the skull where “Tetsuo” is located? Or are there sensations, sounds, perhaps visual darkness, and thoughts about a head?
Now place a finger on one side of the head and another finger on the other side. There are sensations.
Between those sensations, can anything actually be found? Or does thought say, “there must be a head between them”?
Look especially for the place where “I” seems to be.
Does the sense of being located somewhere have an actual location?
Can a boundary around that location be found?
Can a separate experiencer of the sensations be found?
Or are there simply sensations appearing?

Don’t rush this. Look a few times during the day and then answer:
When thought is not used to fill in the picture, what is the actual experience of “the body”?
Can a self be found in it?
Love
Rali

[pdsaar]

Hi Rali,

I need a another day to sit with all these questions and exercises and give them the attention they deserve.

Thanks,
Pete

[poppyseed]

That's cool, Pete! Take your time! Thank you for letting me know :)

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hey Pete

It's been a while... Are we still doing this?!

Love
Rali