The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
My understanding is that what I experience as “me” may not be a separate entity that is actually there, but rather thoughts, sensations and experiences that create that impression. I understand this conceptually, but thoughts and doubts can sometimes be overwhelming, so having someone help me see whether I’m approaching self-inquiry correctly would

What are you looking for at LU?
I’m looking for practical guidance with self-inquiry and investigating the sense of being a separate self. I’ve been exploring awakening and non-duality, particularly through Angelo Dilullo’s work, and I’ve been trying to apply self-inquiry and direct investigation on my own.

The difficulty is that when I’m doing this alone, thoughts and doubts can sometimes become overwhelming, and it can be hard to tell whether I’m actually looking at my direct experience or just thinking about it. I’d really value having someone more experienced who can tell me when I’m getting caught in concepts, help me understand whether I’m approaching the inquiry correctly, and point me in a better direction when needed.

I’m not looking for someone to give me beliefs or answers, but for an ongoing dialogue where I can describe what I’m noticing, ask questions when I’m confused, and receive practical feedback and exercises to work with.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I hope to have an open and practical conversation where I can describe what I’m experiencing during self-inquiry, including my doubts and confusion, and get feedback from someone with more experience.

Sometimes I find it difficult to tell whether I’m actually looking at direct experience or just thinking and analyzing. I would like a guide to help me recognize that difference, point out where I may be getting stuck, and suggest questions or exercises that I can explore for myself.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I’ve been exploring non-duality and awakening for some time. I’ve read several books by Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi, as well as books by Eckhart Tolle. I’ve also attended a retreat with Lisa Cairns.

More recently, I’ve been regularly following Angelo Dilullo and Rupert Spira through their videos and I’ve also read their books. Angelo’s approach in particular has encouraged me to take self-inquiry and direct investigation more seriously.

I practice self-inquiry whenever I can throughout the day, probably for several hours in total on most days.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

Hello,

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed.
My name is Rowena and I am happy to be your guide. Please let me know what you would like me to call you.

1. Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

2. Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

and "Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)

6. Please answer all questions individually, not in a bundle, as this will assist us both in having a clear dialogue. Also it is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

7. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. Here's a video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Throughout this exploration the questions that I would like you to answer are written in blue text. But please check and answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text!!

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. And I will do so as well. This daily conversation will help to slowly unravel the conditioned, conceptual way of looking at our experience and see through the illusion. I cannot stress the value of this more.

What time zone are in? I am in Belgium which is CET
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.



STARTING THE ENQUIRY: EXPECTATIONS

I know that you've already answered some basic questions when you started this thread, but here are a few more to get your expectations out in the open. Only fear and expectations can prevent clear seeing.

1. What do you think will be different when you realize that there’s no actual separate self; that it is an un-investigated assumption?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What seems to be missing in your life right now?


Warm regards,
Rowena

Hello Rowena,
you can call me erman.

Thank you for getting back to me. It's a pleasure to have you as a guide.

I'm in Italy so we are in the same time zone.

About 30 minutes after I submitted the request for a guide I got it (while reading a sentence in the "Gateless Gatecrashers" book).

Not sure what I should do now but I'll go ahead and answer your questions:

1. What do you think will be different when you realize that there’s no actual separate self; that it is an un-investigated assumption?

I was hoping for an easier day-to-day experience of life. But as of now the only difference is that there’s clearly no self.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I was expecting a more blissfull “state” but everything is the same. Maybe, knowing that “I” can’t choose/decide etc makes the present a little bit lighter.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I didn’t have any big “don’t want”.

4. What are you hoping for?

As I said above I was hoping for a more relaxed and peaceful life.

5. What seems to be missing in your life right now?

I can’t think of what I would have anwered here. The seeking was pretty strong.
Well, there’s still seeking but it’s much lighter. Now it’s more curiosity/actual looking than seeking even if there are some pretty uncomfortable moments.
I didn’t answer the question but there’s not much I can say about it right now.

Hello Erman,

I'm happy to hear this news. Let's do a little exploring together. We have some checking-in questions that are shared with other guides who might have their own questions to ask, but first of all here are a few based on what you have just written.

About 30 minutes after I submitted the request for a guide I got it (while reading a sentence in the "Gateless Gatecrashers" book).

Please can you say more about this in your direct experience. Of course we use conventional language with "I" and "me" for ease of communication, but please could you say more about: "I got it".

What was "got"while reading a sentence in the "Gateless Gatecrashers"?

What actually happened?

If there is no separate self, "I" or "me", what is there that can get or achieve or have knowledge of something? How is this "known"?

What do you perceive to be you in your every day life when ALL THOUGHTS REFERRING TO YOU are dropped?

If I were to ask you to stand up and take a step towards your self, where would you go?

What is the experience of "others"? Are there actual "others" in direct experience?

Well, there’s still seeking but it’s much lighter. Now it’s more curiosity/actual looking than seeking even if there are some pretty uncomfortable moments.

This is to be expected, the energy of seeking rarely stops completely, it takes a while to 'wind-down'.

Here is a video that might be of interest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUDzrCLlrj4
"Sometimes waking up goes back and forth a bit"


Warm regards,
Rowena

Hello Rowena,

Please can you say more about this in your direct experience. Of course we use conventional language with "I" and "me" for ease of communication, but please could you say more about: "I got it".

I’d start by saying that most of the time I was inquiring using questions like “who am I?”, “who is thinking?” and similar questions based on what was happening in the moment. Often, probably, it was kind of mecchanical. After reading a few pages of the Gateless Gatecrashers I read this sentence: That night somebody guided me to see that for all this time, for years and years, who was searching for whatever goal, holding whatever intention, was an imaginary self.
And it simply made sense. I felt a huge release and some kind of expansion in the body. This “state” didn’t last long, maybe a day.
At first it was kind of confusing. I was surprised and wondering “is this really true?”. So, a few days after, I went ahead and did most of the excercises I found in that book and in this forum and and doing them confirmed what I had already seen..

What was "got"while reading a sentence in the "Gateless Gatecrashers"?

Nothing was actually “got”. The “there’s no self” just made sense.

What actually happened?

As I said above, nothing actually happened. It made sense.

If there is no separate self, "I" or "me", what is there that can get or achieve or have knowledge of something? How is this "known"?

There’s just knowing. It still surprises me that the mind labels everything afterwards. It’s crazy that I’d never noticed it before.

What do you perceive to be you in your every day life when ALL THOUGHTS REFERRING TO YOU are dropped?

Interesting question. I wouldn’t. say I perceive something to be me. The closest thing is the sense of being, which is clearly a sense and not a me.

If I were to ask you to stand up and take a step towards your self, where would you go?

This doesn’t make sense. There’s no self to move from or to.

What is the experience of "others"? Are there actual "others" in direct experience?

This is very interesting because it’s something I keep looking at. I see people doing things. Movements, talking but there’s no manager in them. Just natural movements.
I’d like to explain this better but it’s pretty hard.
It’s like watching a tree moving in the wind.
So no, there’s no actual others in direct experience.

Something I’d like to add. Not sure it’s appropriate. When I’m in nature and I see trees, mountains, birds etc it is kind of scary. It’s not actually scaring but it kind of feels like I can’t handle it. No one that needs to handle anything but it feels like I’m about to jump into the void and "I" try to hold on.

Thank you so much, Rowena.

erman

Hello again erman,

And it simply made sense. I felt a huge release and some kind of expansion in the body. This “state” didn’t last long, maybe a day. At first it was kind of confusing. I was surprised and wondering “is this really true?”. So, a few days after, I went ahead and did most of the excercises I found in that book and in this forum and and doing them confirmed what I had already seen.

.

The sensory experience that you mentioned is really what we are looking for. "A huge release." Is a lovely way to put it.

Without being too picky, I would just question your use of "It simply made sense." This rather implies an intellectual acknowledgment, that there is a separate someone who could be there to whom this idea or concept of there being no separate independent self made sense. Do you see this?

If there is no separate self, "I" or "me", what is there that can get or achieve or have knowledge of something? How is this "known"?

There’s just knowing. It still surprises me that the mind labels everything afterwards. It’s crazy that I’d never noticed it before.

This "There's just knowing." Yes! This is a lovely way to put it.

What is the experience of "others"? Are there actual "others" in direct experience?

This is very interesting because it’s something I keep looking at. I see people doing things. Movements, talking but there’s no manager in them. Just natural movements.
I’d like to explain this better but it’s pretty hard.
It’s like watching a tree moving in the wind.
So no, there’s no actual others in direct experience.

Lovely!

Something I’d like to add. Not sure it’s appropriate. When I’m in nature and I see trees, mountains, birds etc it is kind of scary. It’s not actually scaring but it kind of feels like I can’t handle it. No one that needs to handle anything but it feels like I’m about to jump into the void and "I" try to hold on.

What you speak of here can happen. Speaking from my own experience/story of this; subtle energetic filters were placed during childhood to 'keep the world at bay," to try and create a kind of safe zone. With the release you experienced much of those subtle filters have fallen away, and so there is a much more full on sensory experience of the visual field. My suggestion, when this arises take the time to gently breathe and allow the sensations to pass through. You can also introduce other body sensations such as bringing your hand to your heart, or rubbing your arms to help ground the excess energy.

And also, when you say:

it feels like I’m about to jump into the void and "I" try to hold on.

Not to diminish the intensity of the experience, it is helpful to acknowledge that this is a description or, (thoughts about) a felt sensory experience. Thoughts are arising with a story to match the intensity of energetic sensations in the body.


OBSERVING THOUGHTS
The Direct experience of thought is very important in the seeing through of the self illusion. As always take your time to get comfortable and relaxed before beginning this meditation. Take it slowly and trying not to think about the answer, just let it come with what you experience directly. If you like, it can be helpful to get a piece of paper and write as it comes; from the flow of questioning and looking, clarity comes. Each question can be a meditation in itself.

Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice any thoughts arising.
Just let them appear as and when they appear. Try your best to not pay attention to what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

Can a thought think another thought?

Can a thinker be found?

Please answer ALL the questions.
Look as many times as it is possible during the day even for a few seconds.

Finally another video: https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w
"FALLING", Integration of Awakening. Ilona Ciunate


Warm regards,
Rowena

Without being too picky, I would just question your use of "It simply made sense." This rather implies an intellectual acknowledgment, that there is a separate someone who could be there to whom this idea or concept of there being no separate independent self made sense. Do you see this?

Yes, I can see what you mean.

Let me try to rephrase what happened.

Before that moment, I was already questioning my thoughts, but it was more like, “That’s strange, yesterday I believed this and today I believe the opposite.” I had never really questioned the existence of an “I”. I think my self inquiry was actually aimed at finding some kind of Self with a capital S, as described in many books.

When I read that sentence, it was more like: “Oh. The ‘I’ I believe I am is itself a thought. There is no actual ‘I’.” And that’s when I felt the huge release I mentioned before.

Since then, I’ve been able to see thoughts more for what they are rather than automatically taking them to be true. I still get lost in thought, but I recognize it more quickly and the thoughts lose some of their intensity.

The attachment and reaction to thoughts haven’t disappeared, though. For example, thoughts like “I don’t want to meet that person” or “I really want that person in my life” can still feel very strong. They can still trigger a whole story and bring up a lot of discomfort.

There are moments when all of this is much clearer, but there are also times when it’s very difficult to “get out” of the story. And, of course, within the story there is very much an “I”.

Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

Thoughts are appearing and disappearing.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, I didn’t.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No

Can you predict your next thought?

No

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No

Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts?

No

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

What can a thought do i.e. does it have agency?

No

Can a thought think another thought?

No

Can a thinker be found?

No

Warm regards,
erman

The attachment and reaction to thoughts haven’t disappeared, though. For example, thoughts like “I don’t want to meet that person” or “I really want that person in my life” can still feel very strong. They can still trigger a whole story and bring up a lot of discomfort.

The discomfort (body sensations) is the way to go. Science tells us that thoughts appear milliseconds after a body response or a reaction. And when thoughts take over, then more thoughts follow and then there is a whole story appearing about an apparent "I" bound to a timeline. (Memory) Whenever you get the chance go into the body sensations and allow the sensations to be there fully.

There are moments when all of this is much clearer, but there are also times when it’s very difficult to “get out” of the story. And, of course, within the story there is very much an “I”.

As before, exploring the body sensations is key. A way to look at emotions is Energy in Motion with a thought label attached: Fear, anger, grief, pleasure, etc. There is a lot of bound-up "me" energy in the body and seeing through the illusion, as you have done, now means that there is a lot of energy under pressure that will be releasing, gradually over time. Awakening out of the illusion is a full body-mind event. It is both cellular and cognitive.

If you like, we can explore a particular situation that can arise that causes 'selfing" or "me-ing" to arise. If so,
1. Briefly describe the context.
2. Then the story attached including thoughts about resistance, resentment, desire, etc.
3. Body sensations
4. What happens to the story when you were able to take the time and fully allow the sensations to be present.



SOUND AND VISUAL FIELDS COMBINED - AS A MEDITATION WITH EYES OPEN
Please answer each question individually using the quote function.

Allow yourself to relax and open to the whole 'sound field'.
In your direct experience. Ask:

Where does it feel that the sound is?
Where does it feel that "I" am?

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?
In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?
Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?
Without the content of thought can a location or distance be known from simply hearing?
Can an independent hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

Where does it feel that "you" are?
If the answer is "here", How is this "known"
Is there a boundary to "you"?
Is there a line of demarcation that can be found between "Here" and "There"?

Also include any sensations in the body that might arise. Allow them to be present without interpreting them.

Now do the same with the Visual Field.
Sit quietly and look at the visual field. Find an object to focus on.
ask the question:

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between an apparent see-er "I" and what is seen, or is there only 'seeing'?
In the visual field can anything be found other than 'seeing''?

Without the content of thought, can any location or distance be found from simply seeing?
Can an independent see-er be found separate from seeing'?

Also include any sensations in the body that might arise. Allow them to be present without interpreting them.

ALTERNATE VISUAL AND HEARING FIELDS AND INCLUDE BODY SENSATIONS
Spend a few minutes with your attention fully in the visual field and then switch attention to the hearing field.
Now allow your attention to flow as it will between the two fields.

Without the content of thought, where are you?
If the answer is "here", How is this "known"
Can a boundary be found to separate "you" from what is appearing ?
Where do you "here" end and "there" begin exactly? Is there a precise line of demarcation?
Without thought, in direct experience, can an actual boundary be found between seeing, hearing and body sensations?

Please give a short description of how this landed with you.

Warm regards,
Rowena

If you like, we can explore a particular situation that can arise that causes 'selfing" or "me-ing" to arise. If so,
1. Briefly describe the context.
2. Then the story attached including thoughts about resistance, resentment, desire, etc.
3. Body sensations
4. What happens to the story when you were able to take the time and fully allow the sensations to be present.

Yes, please. I'd love to. Give me some time to "work" on this.

Where does it feel that the sound is?

There is no “where”. The sound just appears in my awareness.

Where does it feel that "I" am?

There is no “I am”.

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

There is no boundary. There’s only “what is heard”.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?

Just sound arising.

Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

There’s no hearer. Just “what is heard”.

Without the content of thought can a location or distance be known from simply hearing?

No. We use thoughts to locate a sound. Without thoughts there’s just the sound.

Can an independent hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

No

Where does it feel that "you" are?

There’s no “me”.

If the answer is "here", How is this "known"

No location.

Is there a boundary to "you"?

There is no boundary.

Is there a line of demarcation that can be found between "Here" and "There"?

No.

Also include any sensations in the body that might arise.

There’s a sense of emptiness while doing these exercises. A light sense of expansion in the chest area.

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between an apparent see-er "I" and what is seen, or is there only 'seeing'?

There’s only seeing.

In the visual field can anything be found other than 'seeing''?

Just seeing. Nothing else.

Without the content of thought, can any location or distance be found from simply seeing?

No.

Can an independent see-er be found separate from seeing'?

No.

Also include any sensations in the body that might arise.

It’s like what I said before when I’m in nature. There is a sense of something holding on. Maybe a sense of “effort”. A very light sense of contraction in the throat area.

Without the content of thought, where are you?

There’s no me.

If the answer is "here", How is this "known"

Can a boundary be found to separate "you" from what is appearing ?

No

Where do you "here" end and "there" begin exactly? Is there a precise line of demarcation?

There’s no line.

Without thought, in direct experience, can an actual boundary be found between seeing, hearing and body sensations?

No.

Please give a short description of how this landed with you.

I loved it. I do something very similar almost every morning when I wake up. I close my eyes and try to sense the difference between touch and hearing. Often I can experience them both simply as appearances. Even categorizing them as sound or touch feels like too much.

I hope I understood what you’re asking me to look at.

1. Briefly describe the context.

Some time ago, a person I had a relationship with in the past came back into my life. Apparently, I still care a lot about this person. After meeting a few times, it seemed that a strong connection had developed again. Then, in short, everything stopped.

2. Then the story attached including thoughts about resistance, resentment, desire, etc.

The story in my mind is that I can’t have this person in my life, and this brings up a lot of discomfort. The resistance is towards the current situation. There is also some resentment about not having handled things differently, even though at the moment that doesn’t really make sense to me. The desire is still to somehow recover the situation.

3. Body sensations

When I don’t get lost in the story, the body sensation is a contraction on the left side of my chest.

4. What happens to the story when you were able to take the time and fully allow the sensations to be present.

When I’ve been able to stay with the sensation and fully allow it to be there, the thoughts slow down. Sometimes they disappear completely. After a while, the sensation also fades away.

I should add that this “story” isn’t active at this particular moment, but it does come back quite often. So I’m describing what I’ve observed when it is active rather than something I’m experiencing right now.

Warm regards,
erman

Hello ermani,

I'm glad you enjoyed the last exercise. It is lovely to play with the sense fields.

Also include any sensations in the body that might arise.

It’s like what I said before when I’m in nature. There is a sense of something holding on. Maybe a sense of “effort”. A very light sense of contraction in the throat area.

Become VERY INTERESTED in this! Play around with the whole field of body sensations, consider 'expanding' attention into the outer energy field of the body at the same time that the contractions arise and go to and fro between the two areas of the sense field. Do not force though, it is a gradual process and can go on for a while.


EXPLORE - SENSE OF SELF/SENSE OF ME:
The difference in Feeling something to be true and Seeing that it is or isn't.

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be as that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there.
At this point you can keep on believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit that even if they were, they are no longer there now.

This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys.

Feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different. (Remember the Coloured Socks Example!)

Now I'd like you to explore this "sense of self" very thoroughly, not by thinking about it but be LOOKING FOR IT. There might be a familiar sensation that we label a sense of self, but can an actual self be found? Keep the focus of attention on this sense of self and answer each question separately and feel free to answer with a simple yes or no when appropriate:

Does this sense of self or "me" have a specific location? Yes/No
If Yes, is it permanently fixed, or does it come and go?
And if it comes and goes, where does it go to?
Does this sense of self have a shape or a size? Yes/No
Does this sense of self say or communicate anything? Yes/No
If the answer is yes, how does it do this?
Does this sense of self have any specific characteristics or attributes (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, contraction?
What is this sense of self made of? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Body Sensation? Thought?
Does this familiar "sense of self" confirm the existence of an actual self. Yes/No
In conclusion, is there any separate self or "me" to be found?

Remember, it is your direct experience, not whatever feelings and thoughts that come up about it, that we want to get clear about. Direct experience is not thinking about something, thinking about is mental overlay.

Warm regards,
Rowena

Become VERY INTERESTED in this! Play around with the whole field of body sensations, consider 'expanding' attention into the outer energy field of the body at the same time that the contractions arise and go to and fro between the two areas of the sense field. Do not force though, it is a gradual process and can go on for a while.

It is interesting. Hard to explain. When the attention is on body sensations it is kind of calm/neutral. When it moves into the outer energy field it changes. It’s the same feeling as when exploring the visual field but the body sensation is in the chest area. Right now I wouldn’t label it as “effort” though. But I still sense that “holding on” thing. It’s like, I could sense more but I can’t. Hope these words make sense. Will keep investigating this.

Does this sense of self or "me" have a specific location? Yes/No

No.

If Yes, is it permanently fixed, or does it come and go?

And if it comes and goes, where does it go to?

Does this sense of self have a shape or a size? Yes/No

No.

Does this sense of self say or communicate anything? Yes/No

No.

If the answer is yes, how does it do this?

Does this sense of self have any specific characteristics or attributes (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, contraction?

No.

What is this sense of self made of? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Body Sensation? Thought?

None of the things you listed. The closest thing to a sense of self is a sense of existence, but when I look into it, it feels empty. I can’t find anything that it’s actually made of.

Does this familiar "sense of self" confirm the existence of an actual self. Yes/No

No.

In conclusion, is there any separate self or "me" to be found?

No.

Warm regards,
erman

Hello again erman,

Become VERY INTERESTED in this! Play around with the whole field of body sensations, consider 'expanding' attention into the outer energy field of the body at the same time that the contractions arise and go to and fro between the two areas of the sense field. Do not force though, it is a gradual process and can go on for a while.

It is interesting. Hard to explain. When the attention is on body sensations it is kind of calm/neutral. When it moves into the outer energy field it changes. It’s the same feeling as when exploring the visual field but the body sensation is in the chest area. Right now I wouldn’t label it as “effort” though. But I still sense that “holding on” thing. It’s like, I could sense more but I can’t. Hope these words make sense. Will keep investigating this.

What you can explore is the actual experience of words like "effort", "holding on", "trying" and many other similar descriptions.

Look at the description "holding on", see both label and story as a pointer
How does "holding on" FEEL in the body?
Is there even such a thing as "holding on" other than a thought label?
How does "I could sense more but I can't" FEEL?
Watch how the bodymind reacts to other such thought labels and let me know how you get on

What is this sense of self made of? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Body Sensation? Thought?

None of the things you listed. The closest thing to a sense of self is a sense of existence, but when I look into it, it feels empty. I can’t find anything that it’s actually made of.

Yes, that's the way it is.


EXPERIENCE THOUGHTS WITH AND WITHOUT "I AM" LABEL
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which thoughts add labels to experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper. As with all the exercises going forward make sure you are comfortable and take a few deep breathes in order to be relaxed. This is not an intellectual exercise, but a kind of whole-body intuitive exercise attentive to the difference in the two perspectives.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots.
For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry
I am thinking
I am writing.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time drop the “I am” label. Here you can see that experience, in simple language, does not require an experiencer. It can be just as it is without the addition of presumption of a self, of an "I".

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
hearing clock ticking
looking at computer screen
feeling hungry
thinking
writing

Finally, try the two together, first say with the "I am" label and next without: I am walking / walking

Pay attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body. Really take time to sense the difference. It may be subtle.
What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….."
What is the body sensation without the add-on of "I am…."?

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Does one feel intuitively 'truer', more spacious, than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without the labels, including the label "I am", in your direct experience?

3. Do labels affect or alter the direct experience, including the label "I am" or just describe it?

4. Did you feel any differences in the body between the two ways?


Warm regards,
Rowena

How does "holding on" FEEL in the body?

It’s a sensation in the chest.

Is there even such a thing as "holding on" other than a thought label?

No, "holding on" is just a thought label.

How does "I could sense more but I can't" FEEL?

It’s a sensation in the face/jaw area.

Watch how the bodymind reacts to other such thought labels and let me know how you get on

With the label it seems harder to stay with the sensation while without it feels more natural.

1. Does one feel intuitively 'truer', more spacious, than the other, and If so, which one?

Yes, without “I” it is more natural. Intuitively truer.

2. What is here without the labels, including the label "I am", in your direct experience?

All the senses and thoughts.

3. Do labels affect or alter the direct experience, including the label "I am" or just describe it?

They just describe it.

4. Did you feel any differences in the body between the two ways?

The 10 minutes without the use of “I” felt more natural and easier. Lighter.

Warm regards,
erman

Hello again!!

Watch how the bodymind reacts to other such thought labels and let me know how you get on

With the label it seems harder to stay with the sensation while without it feels more natural.

Yes! Thoughts, while trying to spin a helpful story can really cause confusion!

4. Did you feel any differences in the body between the two ways?

The 10 minutes without the use of “I” felt more natural and easier. Lighter.

Same as above! And also, simply stating what is happening without the "I" as in that last exercise can be very stabilizing when there seems to be a reactive state happening. A gentle return to direct experience.



HOW TO DISTINGUISH WHAT FEELS NATURAL, FREE AND ALIVE FROM WHAT FEELS CONTRACTED (FALSE/UNTRUE/A LIE)

We often 'lie' every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes, there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you might have been grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you 'lied', "I'm fine."

In conventional or consensus reality we are not going to be airing everything that is going on in our lives, but it is important that we become aware of our inner state of body sensations. While the body sensations are true, meaning that our direct experience of them is real, the way we interpret them can be misleading.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie. This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is important to notice the body sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body sensations & able to clearly describe them in words. This will help.
Lies can be felt in the upper body, often in the heart, solar plexus or arms, as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed. It feels like relief, like some heavy load has dropped away. You felt that when you did the exercise dropping the words "I am", do you remember?


First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. You don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what body sensations arise as you listen.

Or, even looking at what happens in your body when you have a thought "I should have done ..............." or, "This should / should not have happened................."

Please report back with what body sensations (not interpretations) you felt. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.


Let me know how you get on with this.


Warm regards,
Rowena