Looking for the self

[starksj]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I understand that the self is just a concept. The gross I is thoughts, history, likes/dislikes, feelings, the stories one tells oneself, name, form.

What are you looking for at LU?
Support from someone who has walked this. My own looking has carried me a long way alone, but I feel I'm venturing into territory where a second set of eyes will be needed, someone to test what I take to be seen, catch anything I've missed or subtly held onto, and keep me honest at the thresholds I'm now approaching.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I've inquired independently for years without a teacher. The search for a self has already come up empty in direct looking, and I'm not seeking an introduction to the idea — I'm seeking a guide to test what I take to be seen, catch anything I've missed or subtly reified, and hold me to direct experience rather than description.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
My orientation came through direct experience rather than study. A near-death experience around 2000 seeded the recognition, and over roughly 15 years of self-directed inquiry I searched for the 'I' and found none — the belief in a self feels irreversibly gone, though a self-sense still arises. I've never followed a teacher; I later found my recognitions corroborated in Advaita, Madhyamaka, and Zen rather than sourced from them. My practice now centers on direct looking and inquiry — working with huàtóu-style questioning, examining the seam between bare sensation and narrative identity, and sitting with the threshold where the sense of a chooser dissolves. I've engaged Angelo DiLullo's work on the emotional body and shadow material, which keeps me honest about what's cleared versus what's merely quiet.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
11

[Iconoclast]

Hi,

My name is Necip, and I’d be happy to be your guide, if you’d like.

If you haven’t already read the disclaimer, please do so before we begin. You can find it here:

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Please also read “Liberation Unleashed is not…” in the LU FAQs:

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Below is a short video explaining how to use the Quote Function. Please watch it before posting your replies. It’s also a good idea to use the Preview button to check that everything looks right before clicking “Submit.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Here are a few basic guidelines for our inquiry:

1. Please stay in regular contact throughout the inquiry, ideally checking in each day or at least every other day. If circumstances prevent you from replying for a while, just leave a short note in your thread so I know you’ll be away.

2. Your responses are not being graded or evaluated as right or wrong. What matters is reporting what you genuinely find, so please be completely candid about whatever comes up during the investigation.

3. Our inquiry will focus on what can be directly noticed here and now (Actual Experience, or AE): seeing/color, hearing/sound, bodily sensation, smell, taste, and thoughts as they are noticed. Try not to get drawn into lengthy theories, intellectual analysis, or philosophical explanations, since these can distract from simply looking at experience. The purpose here is not to create a better version of yourself; rather, we are investigating whether the “self” assumed to need improvement can actually be found.

4. For the duration of this inquiry, I’d like you to temporarily set aside other spiritual systems, teachings, techniques, rituals, and related reading. Give this investigation your full attention and examine what is actually present in experience as directly as possible. If meditation is already part of your normal daily routine, you are welcome to continue with it, although meditation is not required for this exploration.

5. One practical suggestion: online systems occasionally fail, and a carefully written reply can sometimes disappear. To avoid losing your work, consider copying my questions into a separate document, writing and saving your answers there, and then posting the completed response to your thread. Keeping a backup can save you from having to write everything again.

Before we begin the inquiry itself, I’d like to get a clear picture of what you currently expect or hope might come from it. There are no right or wrong answers here, simply answer openly from your present understanding and expectations.

What do you expect your everyday life to be like as a result of this exploration?

Do you anticipate any changes in yourself? If so, what kind?

What do you imagine will be different from the way things are now?

Is there something you currently feel is lacking, unresolved, or that you hope this inquiry will provide?

By the way, what would you like me to call you, and what time zone are you in?

Much love,

Necip

[starksj]

Hi Necip,
I’d be happy for you to Guide me thank you so much for offering!

What do you expect your everyday life to be like as a result of
this exploration?

I really don’t think that everyday life will change however, my relationship to it may change.

Do you anticipate any changes in yourself? If so, what kind?
What do you imagine will be different from the way things are
now?

I anticipate less of a sense of being in here and everything else being out there.

Is there something you currently feel is lacking, unresolved, or
that you hope this inquiry will provide?

Perhaps I will understand why I've felt since I was very young that so much of the system we live within is constructed, and that people, including myself, unconsciously perform roles within it, almost like actors in a play.

By the way, what would you like me to call you, and what time
zone are you in?

You can call me Jon I am in Eastern Time.



With Love
Jon

[Iconoclast]

Hi Jon,

Glad to explore with you.

You wrote, “I anticipate less of a sense of being in here and everything else being out there.”

In your direct experience, what is here and what is there?

Does having a sense of body and a sense of "navigation" in your body mean you are separate from the world, please look.

Remember to use the quote function while responding to each and every question.

Much love,

Necip

[starksj]

In your direct experience, what is here and what is there?

When I look directly I can’t find a ‘here’ or ‘there,’ I can only find the ideas of ‘here’ and ‘there.’
What I see right now is that 'here' and 'there' are thoughts.
I can’t find a boundary between 'here' and 'there.'

Does having a sense of body and a sense of "navigation" in your
body mean you are separate from the world, please look.

Right now I am hearing a firetruck siren outside, I can’t find a boundary between the sensation of body and the sensation of the sound.

When I look at the body I have visual sensations, I feel the sensations of air moving through my nose and in my throat, I feel my chest rise and fall, I feel my heart beat. I can’t find a boundary between the sound of the firetruck and all of these body sensations.

[Iconoclast]

Good responses! I'll write to you very soon.

Much love,

Necip

[starksj]

Hi Necip,

Hope you are well.
I’ll hear from you soon.

Thank you

With Love
Jon

[Iconoclast]

Hi Jon,

I'm fine yeah.
Now let’s try the following exercise.

Please observe your thoughts for a moment.
1. Can you predict your next thought?
2. Do you have any control over what your next thought will be?

[starksj]

Hi Necip!

Please observe your thoughts for a moment.

Can you predict your next thought?

I can’t predict the next thought. The thought just happens.

Do you have any control over what your next thought will be?

The thought just happens, then it goes away. There is no control over what the thought will be.

With Love
Jon

[Iconoclast]

OK, Jon, very good!

Now, please respond to the following questions:

What expectations or fears do you have about seeing through the illusion of a separate self? Especially fears?

What, if anything, feels missing right now?

[starksj]

Hi Necip!

What expectations or fears do you have about seeing through the illusion of a separate self? Especially fears?

I was having some difficulty answering this question because I was trying to find something to anticipate, but what I was looking for was already present.

Right now I am relieved, there is nothing to become, nothing to attain, nothing to defend, no need to control experience. So for now I don’t expect much to change.

As far as fears, I no longer have any fears of seeing through the illusion of a separate self.

What, if anything, feels missing right now?

Right now there is nothing missing or lacking.

With Love
Jon

[Iconoclast]

Is there a you over there, do you exist?

[starksj]

Good Day Necip!

Is there a you over there, do you exist?

When I look right now in this moment all I find of Jon is thought, thoughts of what Jon was, Jon is the history.

There are many stories I created about myself.

There are likes and dislikes.

There does at times seem to be a center where all experience funnels into but when I look for it, all that can be found is a thought, a belief. The idea that I am awareness is just that, another idea

Do I exist?
No, there are just thoughts or ideas about a me. I cannot be found.

[Iconoclast]

OK, Jon, good.

Now please respond to the following question and do the following exercise.

Let's assume that there is an imagined cube: its width, length, and height correspond to thought, feeling, and psychological time.

Can you see how this cube gains volume each time "selfing" takes place in relation to the past or future?

During the day, observe this process as it happens in your direct experience. Notice how thought, feeling, and psychological time interact and how a sense of “me” may become more substantial as a result. Please describe three specific instances in which the cube gains volume.

[starksj]

Hi Necip,

Now please respond to the following question and do the following exercise.

Let's assume that there is an imagined cube: its width, length, and height correspond to thought, feeling, and psychological time.

Can you see how this cube gains volume each time "selfing" takes place in relation to the past or future?

During the day, observe this process as it happens in your direct experience. Notice how thought, feeling, and psychological time interact and how a sense of “me” may become more substantial as a result. Please describe three specific instances in which the cube gains volume.

Here are some occasions I observed today:

I was very hungry and I was thinking about the dinner I was going to have. This sense of lack in the present deepened the sense of “me.”

I thought about what can go wrong tomorrow. I felt a tension in the body, I thought “I am anxious” and that thought deepened the sense of”me.”

I thought about a pleasant memory and I felt a pleasant warmth. I thought “I feel good” and that deepened the sense of “me.”

I find when I am not in psychological time, the sense of “me’ is at it weakest.

With Love
Jon