The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? I understand this to be that there is no me separate from everything and everyone one that I see or comprehend. What am I? Who I am? I can not claim to understand the answer to that question.

What are you looking for at LU? I had a lot of what people call trauma from about 2yrs to 13 ish. Those experience seem to have left a mark so to speak and my body and mind seem to instantaneously react in ways that I have a difficult time controlling. My hope is that I can find someone to hear me, and I hope this will help me to learn ways to deal more effectively with the scars. I turn 61 this year. I am not looking for a magic potion that will fix all of my problems. However when I look at my life I see many poor decisions that were made through a lense of fear, anger, guilt and shame. yeah and I think that there are related.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? some one to hear me, someone that can at least try to understand where I am coming from. A connection with another human being. I have only been able to talk openly with ChatGpt and I feel like that is really not enough.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I should say here that I am a monk who lives at an Orthodox Christian Monastery. So my Spiritual Practices in have been mostly Praying in solitude and meditating on the Jesus Prayer. I have only recently been exposed to the idea of Non-Self, and the practices that I have heard on The Awakening Curriculum on youtube. Also I learned some ways to think about and practice my meditations from different sources like the Eastern Religions. I am completely open to whatever I can use as a tool to help me. The things that I have learned from Taoism, Zen Buddhism, Shi Heng Yi and others have really helped me.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?

11

Hi moebious. My name is Ashton and I'll be your guide.
I think we'll have a fun time.
You can call me Ash or Ashton. Whatever works. Lmk what you want me to call you.

Anyways, the way this is going to work is I am going to put things that you say in quotes by copying a sentence or paragraph of yours that strikes me by placing that copied text inside of the quote function up above this textbox. It'll appear as [ quote ] (copied text here) [ /quote ] except there won't be spaces. You'll do the same when answering my questions. Simple enough, right?!

When I ask you these questions, I do not want you to tell me your answer from thought (reasoning). Never! You can tell me your answer a) as your experience is currently happening and you notice what is currently happening as your experience unfolds or b) via memory.

To clarify, you CAN tell me "Ash, thought is/was coming up and it was saying xyz thing". But that is drastically different than forming your answer FROM thought (reasoning). See how that example is different? That statement would have been formed through experience being seen directly and/or memory.

What you said here hit me and this will be the first thing we examine:

when I look at my life I see many poor decisions that were made through a lense of fear, anger, guilt and shame. yeah and I think that there are related.

Let's turn that into a chain of events:
1. Looking back to earlier times arose
2. Noticing that less than ideal decisions took place arose
3. Thought arose that those decisions were made through fear, anger, guilt, and shame.
4. Agreeability with that thought arose.

Did you say "Hey, experience! Make it so looking back to earlier times arises. Then after that, make it so when that happens, it gets noticed that those past decisions that got made get viewed as being less than ideal. Then after that, make it so a thought comes in and says 'ahhh, those decisions were made due to fear, anger, guilt, and shame'. Then after that, make it so agreeability with that thought arises!"

Did you say all of that for each and every one of those events to happen?
Or did they each just individually, spontaneously arrive in your experience? (Even if they all sort of just happened en masse)
Without ever asking your permission to enter your experience, yeah?

Look back on that moment.
They all just arose on their own, yeah?
Reflect back.
Report your findings.

Ash.

yeah :-) I get it. No that was not the experience. Those thoughts just came and went just like every other thought that I have. There was no Director of Operations at the helm. It still feels strange for me to say it but, no. There is no director.

So what is the hangup?
You didn't really give me much about what your experience was if that wasn't the chain of events. If it wasn't, what was?

Actually reflect back and tell me

It all happened in masse like you said. It was really just one thought. Maybe I am not understanding the question. I am sorry if I am :-) um.. I am thinking that you are getting at the fact that as I thought that, there was no thinker, no me directing that thought. I had a concussion 9 years ago. I was asked right before I left the hospital if my cognitive abilities were ok. I said Yes. There were no were NEAR ok, and in the experiences from then until now I have realized that I never understood that my brain was not right until it got better and that means that there is no ME directing things other wise ME would be saying Hey whats up here this brain is difunctional we need to get somebody on this to do something about it.:-) I hope this answers the question. Thank you for you patience. :-)

It all happened in masse like you said

And so it was.
Did you tell it to make it happen en masse?
Or did it just arise that wag, all on its own?

You didn't have to say "Hey, experience! Make it so it all arises en masse as 1 sort of thought!"
Did you?
Or did it just happen that way, without ever asking your permission to unfold en masse that way?

I am thinking that you are getting at the fact that as I thought that, there was no thinker, no me directing that thought.

Can you tell what this is? That you wrote down?
And that agreeability / a buying into it also arose... all on its very own accord as well?

If at the end of the day there's a thought that there's a self or a do-er or a think-er... then that thought arose.
Can you see that it just arose that way?
You didn't have to tell experience "Hey, experience! Make it so a thought arises that somebody is orchestrating all of this! Then also make it so it viscerally feels that way as well, and a buying into it arises!"

Did you have to say that either for it to happen?
Or does it just sometimes happen that way?
It didn't ask your permission to arise that way when it arises that way, yeah?

Also, you can take time to reflect and see for yourself.
If you want to reply daily or hourly or minutely, or weekly, cool.

So long as you actually are looking and reflecting.
But when the looking and reflecting arises...
Can you see that even that is just arising on its own will?
And even when you don't want to look, feel repulsed to look...
Can you even see that THAT TOO just arises on its own, without asking your permission to say "Hey moebious, are you okay if I make it so not wanting to look arises?"

Look.
See.
I know my answer is "Fuck no!"
It just arises.

But I want you to see for yourself.
I want you to look at past experiences.
I want you to see whenever it happens, if it does or doesn't happen that way.

I don't want you to answer from a place of reasoning or what books say. I want you to answer based on having seen for yourself.

Ash

Did you tell it to make it happen en masse?

No I did not have to tell it to happen

You didn't have to say "Hey, experience! Make it so it all arises en masse as 1 sort of thought!"
Did you?
Or did it just happen that way, without ever asking your permission to unfold en masse that way?

Thoughts come and go. They start and turn into another thought all on their own. My experience tells indicates that I have no way to predict what is coming up becasue basically there is no "I" to know. Its just happening

So long as you actually are looking and reflecting.
But when the looking and reflecting arises...
Can you see that even that is just arising on its own will?

This is an interesting question. Can I see that? Yes.

And even when you don't want to look, feel repulsed to look...
Can you even see that THAT TOO just arises on its own, without asking your permission to say "Hey moebious, are you okay if I make it so not wanting to look arises?"

Yes I can see that very easily. It is has been a little more difficult when I experiencing "SEEING" for example, with the inquiry, "Who is doing the seeing?" ie. Who is the see-er. But in the end, when I really look, there is no see-er. Seeing is happening just like thought is happening. When I began to see this it was difficult and it is still easy for me to slip back either momentarily or in a way, or situation that for a little bit the understanding slips away and I find myself identifying again. But as they say, Bean by bean the bag gets full.

Hahaha nice noticing moebious

Seeing is happening just like thought is happening

Yes

it is still easy for me to slip back

This slipping back...

Does even the slipping back arise on its own, too?

Did you have to say "Hey, experience! Make it so slipping back arises!"

Or did it just arise?

for a little bit the understanding slips away and I find myself identifying again.

What about this?

Did you have to say "Hey, experience! Make it so understanding slips away and identification happens!"

Or did even that too...
Just arise on its own?
Without asking to arise...
Just simply...
Arose?

Ash

What about this?

Did you have to say "Hey, experience! Make it so understanding slips away and identification happens!"

Or did even that too...
Just arise on its own?
Without asking to arise...
Just simply...
Arose?

Yes it did just arise :-) It seems, from my experience, that the mind (brain) is just doing what it does. Taking in sensory information, pattern recognition, kinda on autopilot in a way. Then (unfortunately) my awareness followed these thoughts since childhood and I am just now beginning to see that those thoughts are not me. I think that the closest that I can get to the real me is Awareness. To just be aware with no thought seems to be a very peaceful place for me to be. allowing extraneous thoughts to just drop away while maintaining awareness, at least in my experience, has been the sweet spot for me.

This slipping back...
Does even the slipping back arise on its own, too?

Yeah... its all the same. :-)

I think that the closest that I can get to the real me is Awareness.

I'm gonna sound like a dick...
But what is this, here? What you said?
And did it arise on its own, or did you have to tell it to arrive in order to arrive?

And then did it get bought into?
And did you have to tell it to get bought into to get bought into, or did it just get bought into?

I think that the closest that I can get to the real me is Awareness.

What about when awareness isn't there?
Does it just arise that way?

What about when awareness is there?
Did that too just arise that way?

Before you answer those questions.. I want you to inspect this:

Does sometimes 100% clarity arise?
And sometimes 50% clarity arises?
And other times 0% clarity arises?

What gives? (Rhetorical- don't answer)
Can you see that in either event, either case...
It's just whatever arose?

You didn't have to say "Hey, experience! Make it so this time I get to experience 54% clarity... but only for 46 seconds and then after that make it so I feel lost as if there's 0% clarity"

Or does it just come and go as it pleases, on its own accord, on its own wishes?
Look.
See.
Inspect.

Let me know what you find.

To just be aware with no thought seems to be a very peaceful place for me to be.

This peacefulness...

Did that too, just arise on its own? Or did you say "Hey, experience! Make it so here in 5 minutes there's gonna be an absentness of thoughts. Then when that happens, make it so it feels very peaceful. Then make a thought arise after that of "wow, I want more of this" then after that, buy into it"

Or does it just sometimes all arise that way?
You didn't have to prompt experience to make all of those things happen...
Did you?

Look.
Look back.
Reflect.
Observe what the case is.
Report me your findings.

Ash

Hello Ash,

I hope you are well today, By the way I really do appreciate you working with me on this. :-)



Now this one is interesting. I said

I think that the closest that I can get to the real me is Awareness.

You responded in this way

I'm gonna sound like a dick...
But what is this, here? What you said?
And did it arise on its own, or did you have to tell it to arrive in order to arrive?

After spending some time just experiencing thoughts as they arise and then directing my attention toward the one who the thought seems to be referring to or is about. I can see that the thoughts just arise. I don't feel like I have any control over that. I don't feel like I can predict what the contents of the next thought will be. I also notice that when I turn my attention as I mentioned, the thoughts get quiet while I am experiencing the current moment, then another thought arises at some point and so on.

In short, yes, the thought arises on its own, and, as it logically would follow, no, I did not have to tell it to arise. :-)

Does sometimes 100% clarity arise?
And sometimes 50% clarity arises?
And other times 0% clarity arises?

What gives? (Rhetorical- don't answer)
Can you see that in either event, either case...
It's just whatever arose?

You didn't have to say "Hey, experience! Make it so this time I get to experience 54% clarity... but only for 46 seconds and then after that make it so I feel lost as if there's 0% clarity"

Yes these also just arise. The way that I feel about this question is basically the same as the last.

This peacefulness...

Did that too, just arise on its own? Or did you say "Hey, experience! Make it so here in 5 minutes there's gonna be an absentness of thoughts. Then when that happens, make it so it feels very peaceful. Then make a thought arise after that of "wow, I want more of this" then after that, buy into it"

Or does it just sometimes all arise that way?
You didn't have to prompt experience to make all of those things happen...
Did you?

Look.
Look back.
Reflect.
Observe what the case is.
Report me your findings.

Yes and the experiences and the findings that I have mentioned above are my findings so far :-)


After much observation and curiously questioning the thoughts and feelings that arise, I am convinced that I have no ultimate control over any of it. No control at all. I used to believe that I had some control over these things, I could make myself have better thoughts, I could suppress and eliminate "bad" feelings. haha. No :-)
No this is an illusion, at least in my view as it is now. These things are difficult for me to talk about, I am new to this. :-)

Hi moebious,

Let’s run through these questions and see if there’s anywhere that needs further investigation.
Be relaxed. Don't answer from thought. Describe experience..

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.
Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

- Ash

Hello Ashton,

OK this might take a while :-)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

As far as I, or my minds eye can see, there is no separate entity, at all. I have looked. I have gone through my senses ie when I look at something and then look to see, or detect somehow, to see if there is a separate self doing the seeing, I don't detect or see or understand that there is anything doing the seeing. If there is a separate entity, self, I can't see it. I don't notice it, I am not conscious of it. It would not be something that I understand or can grasp. I mentioned the concussion, during the recovery I never had the feeling that "i" understood how damaged my brain was, "i" thought I was fine. About 2 months ago I had a big spike in cognitive ability and all of a sudden it was like I was a new person.I once had one of these spikes were after it happened it was like one part of my brain was asking that other part of my brain what was going on, why things were different. then the other part was like Yeah you had a concussion about 3 years ago and now you live here and this and that blah, blah. Now how could that be if there were overseeing entity that is like the CEO guy doing all of the seeing and stuff. No I don't really buy it. Im not saying that I know everything because I don't. I am saying all of this based on my severe lack of understanding. But yeah.. I don't buy it.

You asked was there ever? :-) Really? of course not, it would be very strange if there was something there at one time but now it is gone. hehe. :-)

2) Describe how the illusion of an independent, self came into being by giving examples from actual experience.

This started around late June. I think. I had a big increase in cognitive ability (If I have not mentioned It I had a major concussion 9 years ago, uphill battle.. Long story) At this point all I could think of was “Who am I under all of this” My thoughts raced in a scrambled sort of way. But at the same time the thoughts of the mind seemed to have a pretty clear trajectory to get to the bottom of all of this. Eventually I came across The Awakening Curriculum on youtube. The teaching in the 1st fetter was fascinating and I just really connected with it. I started doing inquiries with my body at times but also just thinking about what happened during the time that I was so impaired from the concussion, but didn’t realize that I was impaired. During the inquiries, I “looked for a self or an I” but I didn’t see it, and I still do not see anything, just thoughts. The more I dig into all of this the more I realize that this is all thoughts. One great example is that one day maybe 4 or 5 years into the recovery form the concussion, A thought to say a word arose, then I said the word. “Allrightydighty” It was a very strange sensation that I can not explain but.. Once it came out of my mouth I said “I haven’t said that word in like 5 years” Here is the clincher. Why, If i have a self, or an I that is doing the thinking (and for that matter all of the other senses) do that “I” not understand that the mind or brain or whatever was not saying a word that should be in memory? Right? Seem sayn? Ok so I could just sit here and write a very boring book on the subject but I for one don’t really want to put in the effort to type it and I wouldn’t want to subject you to it either.

Then give some experiential examples of how life changed for you after seeing through this illusion.

Ok yeah so… Its a whole paradigm shift right? Everything seems different somehow. Its a subtle but remarkably meaningful difference to just see that the thing that bothers me is not really bothering me. Lol Its my thoughts that are bothering me and ultimately I can stop those thoughts by just not thinking about it anymore. Amazing :-) Its like when you are having a difficult conversation on the phone with someone and you realize all of a sudden that the difficulty can be ended, and all it takes is to just hang up the phone. Of course there are times that I can’t just hang up the phone, fear, habit etc. but my understanding is that this is what the other 9 fetters point to.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

Yeah, it's incredible really. Im not saying of course that all is rosey I have a lot of thought patterns that have been learned over 60+ years but It is very interesting that technically speaking, all I really need to do is hang up the phone, give up the idea of trying to defend myself, build myself, protect myself and the like because there is no self. I feel lighter. I feel more free in a way, yet at the same time I am faced with the prison that I have built up around “me” with all of the defences and armour. Yeah. interesting.

4) Can you remember any specific inquiry that resulted in an epiphany? ..a before and after seeing the actuality of the Self. Was there a point when you ‘got it’?

Hmm I guess I have said it so I don’t want to beat the proverbial dead horse.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how these things happen and how they work.

Yeah this is a really interesting one and I should say at the onset that I don’t know everything, but when I look at what I can see without adding anything to it, as best I can, all of these at their core is a result of the mind. I admit that this one is difficult for me to wrap my brain around and I have not spent much time observing this. But… how can I have any free choice? At what point did those free choices start? In the womb? Nope. At five? When I got on my bike and rode with my friends to the candy store to buy candy and then eat the candy with my friends? Nope. The place I was living at was not chosen by me, the bike? Just was there, My friends, could have been anybody, the store? That was the one that was there if there was not a store i would not have gone, the candy that I ate was the amount that I could afford and the type of candy (bb bats, snickers bars) that was what was available at the time. If we went to the store now (if it is still there) the candy choices are most likely different. You get the picture? Seem sayn? :-) It can be a little disconcerting right? I mean thats a lot to swallow.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

I feel like this one is not in my pay grade.:-) lol yeah I’m certainly not going to say that I “Know” this one. But there are some differences in how I see this for example. How another person views me is not my responsibility. I mean yeah, that? How they feel? There is nothing I can do about that and I used to think differently. Yeah I can feel the hesitation on this one. Everything is just happening, life is happening. This seems to be bumping up against an idea that life has meaning. Does it have meaning? The age old question,right? But you know one thing that i have noticed is that once something happens, it is gone, once something is there or present, it there, “Accept everything just as it is”. So once it is done (by me) its done, no need to beat myself up over it. I think thats an important distinction and one that I for one do struggle with.

6) Anything to add?

Well.. no I guess not. I think that I have rambled enough and I have given myself some exercises to consider, some things to look into and observe.

Thank you for the effort that you put into this, I am sure that you were not just sitting on the couch twiddling your thumbs waiting for something to do until I came along with my drivel. 🙂

Hello Ashton,

So what do you think? Do you see anything that sticks out to you that I should consider? Maybe some hindrance that I might not be aware of that maybe I should be? I would love to hear any of your thoughts on this, even if I ultimately don't agree with something you share with me, I have found that there is always something there that can help. :-)

Hi moebious, sorry for the wait. A couple guides wanted to ask you this in accordance to what you said here:

What you said:
"How another person views me is not my responsibility. I mean yeah, that? How they feel? There is nothing I can do about that and I used to think differently."

Question: What is "another" in direct experience? If there is no self here what makes a self there, with a responsibility? Where is the interpretation / story of "how they feel" - "here" or "there"?