Self be gone

[Gary1]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I believe the self to be an illusion of freewill. The idea that I am not the body or the awareness has not sunk in yet. I grasp that thoughts are out if my control, but some of my actions still seem to be caused by me. Noticing my breathing for instance, I believe that my body is doing that automatically, yet it still seems that I am in control.

What are you looking for at LU?
I am tired of the sense of self and all the pain that causes. I see often how my thoughts just appear, but I haven't gotten all the way yet despite serious effort. I feel afraid of others too much of the time.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Hopefully a guide can help me see the truth that I'm not a body or an awareness. I have gone through a list of questions in two books attempting to help me see that there is no self and I still see myself as a separate being.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I've done much meditating and inquiring and reading and even done 5meo-dmt recently to end the nonsense, but the sense of separation persists.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 10

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[poppyseed]

Hi Gary1
(what do you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Please confirm that you have read them
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.

What time zone are you in?
Love
Rali

[Gary1]

Rali,
I read everything and I'm all in. I'm in Idaho and on Mountain Time. I spend time everyday asking what the sense of self consists of and it seems to be memory of Glen's past experience. That memory is often unconscious with a mere feeling in the present and a general idea of what the hidden thought is. The sense of self is strongest when I'm not feeling well. That's what I've got for now.
-Glen

[poppyseed]

Hi Glen
It’s good to see you finally here :)

Please make sure that you are subscribed to your topic. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I'm in Idaho and on Mountain Time.

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

I read everything and I'm all in.

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[Gary1]

Rali,
1 What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self? I imagine I'll be more at peace like many others have reported.

2 What do you expect to happen as a result of this? I don't see how this question is significantly different than the first question.

3 What do you want to happen? Greater peace seems like
a nice result to me.

4 What are you hoping for? Peace.

5 What is missing? Peace, of course. Like the Buddhists say, "No self, no problem."

[poppyseed]

Hi Glen

It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

3 What do you want to happen? Greater peace seems like
a nice result to me.

The question was actually: What do you want not to happen?
And I was assessing any possible fears which could come in the way. Are there any?

Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work

Love
Rali

[Gary1]

Rali,
"I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?"
Yes, that is OK with me.

"What do you want not to happen?"
I don't want to feel trapped in a body that I have no control over. I'm well aware that thoughts, feelings and some actions just appear. I believe at some level that all actions just happen, yet I don't see that lack of control with every action my body takes. If I was in a bad mood and saw perfectly well that I have zero control over my body that could be terrifying.

I watched the quote function video and much of the information doesn't apply to mobile phones.

"If you look for the I, what is there?"
A faint visual image of Glen along with an awareness of how the body feels and what the voice in the head is saying.

"If I say there's no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?"
I grasp the idea of not being the first four, but if I didn't witness not being those four then how would I know that?

"Where exactly did you look?"
I looked at my memory of past looking at that topic. As I mentioned earlier, I am quite aware of my thoughts and some actions just happening.

"What exactly did you find?"
I found thoughts and actions happening and someone witnessing that and remembering it.

Glen

[poppyseed]

Hi Glen

I watched the quote function video and much of the information doesn't apply to mobile phones.

I just tried it on my phone and it works the same way. Anyway lets carry on this way if it is easier for you

I don't want to feel trapped in a body that I have no control over. I'm well aware that thoughts, feelings and some actions just appear. I believe at some level that all actions just happen, yet I don't see that lack of control with every action my body takes. If I was in a bad mood and saw perfectly well that I have zero control over my body that could be terrifying.

Let’s examine this carefully. Fear/resistance serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from losing control of your body. But let’s be clear here… why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff? A self is just an illusion and an illusion can’t do anything but look like something else. A mirage of an oasis in the desert cannot provide you with water, no matter how real it looks :). Your “body” functioned until now on its own so why would something like realising that “you” never existed in the first place change this? We will inquire into control at a later stage and see that “control” was also an illusion.

I grasp the idea of not being the first four, but if I didn't witness not being those four then how would I know that?

Thank you for your honest reply! It gives me an idea where to begin. Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises:
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something. If I asked you to tell me what is behind your back right now, you could answer by doing one of two things: by thinking and remembering, or by turning your head around and actually looking back and describing what you see. That’s how to look.

So, there is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[Gary1]

Hello Rali

"Fear/resistance serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects "you" from losing control of your body. But let's be clear here... why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?"
It wouldn't of course and yet out in the world I often revert back to thinking I'm a body on an unfriendly planet.


"Your 'body' functioned until now on its own so why would something like realizing that 'you' never existed in the first place change this?"
That makes perfect sense when I'm clear-eyed about it.

"You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?"
I agree, however thoughts, for better and for worse keep appearing and we can't discard them all if we want to function.

"However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it a label?)"
An apple is a label, although I don't know how to live in a babylike preverbal state as enjoyable as that might be.

Glen

[poppyseed]

Hi Glen

It wouldn't of course and yet out in the world I often revert back to thinking I'm a body on an unfriendly planet.

That’s quite normal. It’s a habit, a conditioned way to describe what is happening. What is important is to see the illusion so it stops being a delusion. With time this becomes the new habit – seeing reality as it is, but still using labels.
The Buddhist saying "Before one studies Zen, mountains are mountains and waters are waters; after a first glimpse into the truth of Zen, mountains are no longer mountains and waters are no longer waters; after enlightenment, mountains are once again mountains and waters once again waters" points to exactly that.

I suppose the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop comes handy. They are used as a visual representation of what is actually a binary code – zeros and ones - so you can make use of them. But is the icon of email really a box with mail in it?

The same applies to this:

An apple is a label, although I don't know how to live in a babylike preverbal state as enjoyable as that might be.

So yes, apple exists only as a label. All we can experience is colour/seeing, taste/tasting, smell/smelling, sensation/feeling, and sound/hearing (not in the case of “apple”). Whatever is not in these is a thought.
“Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

Just to ensure that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it...here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.
Love
Rali

[Gary1]

Hello Rali

But is the icon of email really a box with mail in it?

No, the icon of email is not a mailbox.

So yes, apple exists only as a label. All we can experience is colour/seeing, taste/tasting, smell/smelling, sensation/feeling, and sound/hearing (not in the case of “apple”). Whatever is not in these is a thought.
“Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

I get the concept.

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

Sitting in my car:
Passing cars = sound (hearing) and sight (seeing)
Thought about the time = thought (thinking)
Hearing a voice = sound (hearing)
Feeling my ankle with my hand = sensation (feeling)
Thought about taste and smell = thought (thinking)
Smelling my empty cup = smell (smelling)

Glen

[poppyseed]

Hi Glen

“Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?

I get the concept.

That’s great but can you see it?

Passing cars = sound (hearing) and sight (seeing)
Thought about the time = thought (thinking)
Hearing a voice = sound (hearing)
Feeling my ankle with my hand = sensation (feeling)
Thought about taste and smell = thought (thinking)
Smelling my empty cup = smell (smelling)

Thank you for doing such wonderful looking! :) It is now to incorporate that looking into your everyday….make it a habit. Maybe include a few lines with each of your replies to keep the momentum going

How does it feel to see what actually is?
Now that you know how look let’s use it :)

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?
Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Love
Rali

[Gary1]

Hello Rali

“Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?
I get the concept.
That’s great but can you see it?

I believe I'm seeing it clearly.

Seeing my phone = sight (seeing)
Hearing myself humming = sound (hearing)
Wondering what I'm going to focus on next = thought (thinking). I did way more of that kind of labeling today.

How does it feel to see what actually is?

The really feeling/seeing etc. feels good. The labeling that proceeds it feels less good.

Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?

When I focus just on the cold with my eyes closed, I don't know where the sensation is.

Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

The answer to the above five questions is "no" when I am not visualizing my body against my will.

At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

One sensation.

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

On the rare moments when I am immersed in the feeling of the body without remembering what it looks like, it is just a feeling and no thought about anyone's body.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

When I'm in the feeling of the body I'm not thinking about inside or outside or anything else.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

I doubt this is the "correct" answer but, it refers to what I can see of my body. If I am keeping my eyes closed per the instructions and catching a rare glimpse of pure feeling then there is no thought about a body because there's no thought about anything.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Feeling, devoid of thought.

Can the 'body' do things?

The feeling of the body probably cannot do things, but the body that I can see with my eyes open and have a devil of a time not seeing when feeling my body with my eyes closed sure seems capable of doing a lot. I spent serious time going through the last few questions in particular and I gave you my honest take.

Glen

[poppyseed]

Hi Glen
Very good looking! :)

I doubt this is the "correct" answer but, it refers to what I can see of my body. If I am keeping my eyes closed per the instructions and catching a rare glimpse of pure feeling then there is no thought about a body because there's no thought about anything.

There is no right or wrong answer – only what is true at the moment.
So yes, the actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to sensation and colour, and labels it a ‘body’, but can a body be found as actual experience or only thoughts about a body?

The feeling of the body probably cannot do things, but the body that I can see with my eyes open and have a devil of a time not seeing when feeling my body with my eyes closed sure seems capable of doing a lot. I spent serious time going through the last few questions in particular and I gave you my honest take.

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body to help you see for yourself further.
Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
1. First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

2. Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

3. While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

4. Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

5. Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

6. Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

7. Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

8. Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

9. Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hey Glen
I just wanted to let you know that I'm flying today and tomorrow so I will be able to answer after Friday

Love
Rali