Zen little Sangha

[Mich103050ar]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
While learning and practicing the Zen Budhizm, I have realized the idea that a seperated 'self' is an illusion and there is no such an entity. However the ability to live this idea especially in challenes situations is hard to implement.
Only while being in nature or at the beach I can feel the sense of being part of the whole universe.

What are you looking for at LU?
I would like to deepen the ability to sense the un self more often. I expect that while I face challange situations I will be able to remind myself that there is no "me" and what i feel are habits, belives, and only surcumstances that I use to react again and again

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
I would expect that the guide in this process (Elad Chone), will assiste me to evoke the sense of idea, when the self is strong and how I can let go to this sensation.
And also tips how to notice the situations when the self is strong and take over

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I use to prctice mediation almost daily and taking part in Budhizm Sangha for about 7 years

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self? 9

[Elad]

Hi, welcome! What do you want me to call you here?

Let's start with this simple exercise:

Coloured Socks

There is a big difference between thinking about what is there and directly experiencing what is there.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

•⁠ ⁠You can have a think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can maybe tell me what color you think they are.

•⁠ ⁠Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!


For this process to work, it's very important that you're clear about this difference. “Thinking about” is all in the mind, and we are not interested in that in the work we doing here. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in present moment to moment experience. We are only interested in direct experience in the moment.

Let me know if this distinction makes sense.

Please always respond to questions and requests written in blue.

You write:

While learning and practicing the Zen Budhizm, I have realized the idea that a seperated 'self' is an illusion and there is no such an entity. However the ability to live this idea especially in challenes situations is hard to implement.
Only while being in nature or at the beach I can feel the sense of being part of the whole universe.

When looking to intimate direct experience here and now, is it clear beyond doubt that there is no separate self, not just intellectually but experientially?

Notice, I am not asking if it feels good and I am not asking if you "have an experience of oneness". Experiences come and go. Comfortable and uncomfortable sensations come and go. It is important for this process to be fruitful NOT try and get or recreate any experience. Instead what helps is to get unconditionally interested in what is actually directly experienced HERE/NOW. This is always what is the focus here.

Let me know if that makes sense


Last thing for now: When you reply to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. This will make our dialogue easier to follow. Please watch the video below to learn how to use the quote function.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

[Mich103050ar]

Let me know if this distinction makes sense.

Yes, I understand the difference between 'to think about something' to actualy see and feel the current experience



When looking to intimate direct experience here and now, is it clear beyond doubt that there is no separate self, not just intellectually but experientially?

Yes, I have no doubt about this idea. Althought in the daily life I live and react totaly the opposite.

Elad, this is the first step. Please let me know If I did it as required
Please let me know where i can find spell check. It bother me to write with mistakes. ;)

[Elad]

Hey Ramit,

Yes, I understand the difference between 'to think about something' to actualy see and feel the current experience

Great!

When looking to intimate direct experience here and now, is it clear beyond doubt that there is no separate self, not just intellectually but experientially?

Yes, I have no doubt about this idea.

No doubt about the "idea" or no doubt about the direct experience?

The difference is CRUCIAL.

Althought in the daily life I live and react totaly the opposite.

What does that mean exactly? For the next day please be on the look-out for moments where you "live and react the opposite". When those moments come LOOK CLOSELY.

What is being experienced AS IF it is "me" and "my reaction"?

Write me what you SEE.


Also do this exercise:


Mind labelling experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.
This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.
For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)
At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect what is already experienced, already happening, or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Elad, this is the first step. Please let me know If I did it as required
Please let me know where i can find spell check. It bother me to write with mistakes. ;)

This is a good beginning :)

You did not use the quote function right. Please look how I quote you and check that you quote me the same way. You can use the "preview" button before you "submit", to look you get it right.

Regarding spelling, you can copy and paste your text into word or some other program you have that has spelling, then copy and paste back. Or put your text in ChatGPT and ask it to correct spelling and other language errrors. For me though it doesn't matter, as long as I can understand you.

[Mich103050ar]

No doubt about the "idea" or no doubt about the direct experience?

I realise that the difference is crucial. I can tell that since that we both started to train together, the idea of self become more presenece in my consious...it cross my mind often. I feel like I let this sense visit in my mind, and I look at it. May be just looking for now.


I did the whole excersie for 10min (5+5). Somehow I felt impairemnt to do it for 20min

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?
2. What is here without labels?
3. Do labels affect what is already experienced, already happening, or just describe it?
4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

1. I didn't feet that one is truer than the other, but may be I could feel that with no 'I', I could sense more delicate movements inside me
2. I have a sense that with no 'I' I was more sensetive to my sensations. Something like this, but I am not sure.
3. Mainely, just describe it
4.No, I didn't notice any differnce in my body

What is being experienced AS IF it is "me" and "my reaction"?
I have to experience it more....I can't tell right now

I did 'preview' and the text was lost, so I replied again..
Also when I did 'save draft' something went worng. So I am doing SUBMIT as is.

Thank you Elad
and have a nice weekend

[Elad]

I realise that the difference is crucial. I can tell that since that we both started to train together, the idea of self become more presenece in my consious...it cross my mind often. I feel like I let this sense visit in my mind, and I look at it. May be just looking for now.

Yes, it is best neither to hold the belief in self, nor the belief in no self, and rather see both beliefs as what they are - beliefs. And keep looking........ :)

1. I didn't feet that one is truer than the other, but may be I could feel that with no 'I', I could sense more delicate movements inside me

That is an interesting observation.

When you have tense situations or uncomfortable thoughts, try to just describe what happens in real time, with verbs, in English (in English the verbs do not have male/female, thus being more purely process descriptive). So for example things like:



"Thinking about what mother said. feeling constriction in stommach, feeling heart beat faster", etc.

3. Mainely, just describe it

"Mainly"? Please do the exercise one more time, this using English to describe experience. And really look: Do the ways of describing at all change what is being experienced already prior to words, or only describe it?

4.No, I didn't notice any differnce in my body.

When trying the exercise one more time, this time in English, see if this time you feel a difference. Also consider doing the full time, rather than half.

What is being experienced AS IF it is "me" and "my reaction"?

I have to experience it more....I can't tell right now

Yes continue exploring this. This is essential. What is it, in the here and now, that is being experienced AS IF it is a self?

I did 'preview' and the text was lost, so I replied again..
Also when I did 'save draft' something went worng. So I am doing SUBMIT as is.

Ok, it takes a little time to get used to use the system. It can be good to save texts before sending or previewing, in case something goes wrong. Please also see the video again about how to use the quote function. Pay attention to how to mark my text so it is my text you quote.


Shabbat shalom!

[Mich103050ar]

היי אלעד,
האמת שאיבדתי את הסבלנות. האתר לא נגיש וידידותי לי
עניתי לך באנגלית ועשיתי קופי ופסט כדי לבדוק ספלינג. כשחזרתי כבר לא מצאתי את הדף עם התשובות של
מרגישה שההתעסקות עם הצד הטכני של זה מקשה עלי, אני בשבוע מאד אינטנסיבי ומתוח ואין לי את השקט והסבלנות להתעסק עם זה....

בכל מקרה אנסה לחזור על מה שכתבתי, בעברית:
1. חזרתי על התרגיל תוכ שאני הולכת. לא היה לי סבלנות ושקט לעשות את זה בבית בישיבה.
הסבתבר שכאשר אני לא משתמשת ב 'אני' התחושה היא יותר מרוחקת ופחות הזדהותית
2. בזמן שהוצפתי במחשבות רפטטיביטת בעניני אמא שלי, מאד רציתי לא להיות בזה ולתת לעצמי מנוחה מזה. מה שעשיתי זה תרגיל שמצביע על תחושות או פעולות בהווה כמו: נושמת, רואה חתול, צועדת על המדרכה, מרגישה את הרוח
זה עזר לי להשקיט את הפפנצ'ה במיינד

ועוד דבר שארצה לשאול: תחת איזה קטגוריה או נושא אני מוצאת באופן מיידי וישיר את התכתובת בינינו? כי כל פעם אני מתחילה לחפש מחדש איפה התכתובת, ובמיוחד איפה התכתובת האחרונה...

זהו בנתיים,
השתמשתי באדי הסבלנות האחרונים שנותרו לי :)

האם את מקבל הודעה שעניתי?
איך אני יודעת שענית לי? צריכה לחפש כל פעם מחדש?

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