The Gate

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this? Through inquiry, when I look for an I/me/self/ego, am I able to find one? When inquiring into the body, sensations, thoughts, decisions and things I would associate with a sense of 'me', is there some sort of independent being experiencing them? LU is focused on helping people inquire into the things that we assume to be 'self'.

What are you looking for at LU? There is a feeling that has been building for a long time but especially over the last year... I'm utterly sick of seeking. After a lifetime of studying 'spiritual' subjects, I feel like I can't read one more book, watch one more video or do any more practices that keep me chasing my tail. I feel like the Truth is staring me in the face but I can't recognize it. I've done a fair amount of inquiry, but understanding there was no self to begin with remains mostly just a concept. At LU I'm looking for very direct information and guidance on how to question deeply held beliefs and I would be very grateful to a friend that can guide me through this.

What do you expect from a guided conversation? I'm hoping that working with a guide might help me question thoughts and beliefs that I've been overlooking on my own. My spiritual practice has been somewhat solitary and I realize now I can't do this alone. I would appreciate someone who can compassionately but firmly shove me in the right direction. Someone who will encourage me to keep questioning, especially when it gets painful or confusing.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry? I've been actively seeking my entire adult life. I excessively consume non-dual literature and videos. I meditate and the longest meditation sit I've done is four days. I also try to do inquiry and mindfulness practices throughout the day. Over the years I've been interested in everything from new age woo-woo to Zen, but over the past seven years or so I've gravitated towards non-dual teachers, like Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadata Maharaj, Rupert Spira, Adyashanti and Angelo Dilulo. I've done all the 1st fetter awakening inquiries in Greg Goode's book "The Direct Path: A Users Guide" and Christiane Michelberger's book "How to See Through the Self-Illusion," as well as inquiry practices from other books. Recently I have also been doing practices from The Headless Way. I have a clear intellectual understanding that there never was an independent entity called 'I' or 'self' but I have not had that unmistakable 'entering the stream' experience. Santa Claus stopped bringing me toys but somehow I still believe in him.

Hi,

Santa Claus stopped bringing me toys but somehow I still believe in him.

Aww, that's sad. Let's see if we can do something about that.

My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

Nice to meet you Stacy! I'm glad you responded so quickly, I was prepared to wait for weeks. I am very grateful for your help and I would be honored for you to be my guide.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum & post every day.

I will. I'm not sure where you're at but I live in Thailand, so I will be responding during daytime hours here. If it takes a bit for my answers to show up, please understand.

I have read the disclaimer and "Liberation Unleashed is not..." I am in a stable frame of mind and I do not use any mind altering substances. Also, I'm doing my best to come into this process without any expectations.

I have read and agree with all the housekeeping guidelines. I will put aside all other teachings, philosophies, etc. for now. The one question I have is... I've been reading "Gateless Gatecrashers." Should I put that aside also?

How will life change?

In reading about other people's awakening experiences, something that seems common is for people to say it's different for everyone. So I'm trying to go into this with few expectations. I might assume though that I'll still do the same sorts of activities as now. However, some things I assume I will lose interest in and some things I resentfully avoid I'll be able to do. I'll be able to do what needs to be done rather than being fiercely attached to the resentment. Also, when I feel "in the flow" of life, life seems to go a lot more smoothly. I assume there will be more of that experience.

How will you change?

I see awakening as a destructive/subtractive process. Removal of false beliefs. Not becoming super-human, just seeing through an illusory pile of junk that hides what's always been here. My true nature won't change at all but I'm hoping that false beliefs about who "I" am will continue to be seen through. If I'm not so attached to a false sense of "I/me/self/ego" I would expect that inwardly, suffering won't be experienced as much because of attachment to certain thoughts. Outwardly, I assume there will be less action coming from a sense of saving and protecting "me".

What will be different?

From the perspective of what I assume to be my true nature, untouched by thoughts, experiences, etc. I don't know that anything will be different. It is unchanging so "different" is meaningless. From the perspective of a limited, separate self, I would expect certain attachments, motivations and life circumstances might change. I've heard people in early realization say they feel less bullied by a sense of "self" so their actions change accordingly. I've heard people in later stage realization say they're not working to appease a "self" anymore and the urge to help others becomes most important. There is "doing" without the "do-er".

What is missing?

I don't honestly know how to answer this question without a philosophical answer and it's driving me crazy. I don't know IF there's anything missing or if that's the wrong way of approaching it altogether. It's like that optical illusion where you look at the picture from one perspective and it's the elderly woman, then you shift perspective and you see the young maiden. I can see one but not the other. It's like the Truth is staring me in the face but I can't see it. There's a riddle that I can't blah-blah-blah. During inquiry and meditation a couple times I felt like I was on the verge of a major realization but fear yanked me back down to earth.

There are a couple things maybe worth noting. One "seems" serious and the other seems somewhat silly. 1) From the perspective of a seemingly separate self, the idea that there is no self fills me with a sense of existential dread and loneliness. 2) If I realize there is no separate self and there is some sort of major awakening (as some experience), how am I going to show up to work tomorrow and deal with mundane BS? I'm not a millionaire. How will I take care of myself?

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

Thailand UTC +7. There was a warning on the registration page about not using your real name on the forum. I don't mind telling you my real first name but is that ok?

Thank you, Stacy!

Good morning

I'm near Boulder, Colorado, US. I suppose I should look up how many hours away from UTC I am but I've never looked We don't use it here.as much. I'm in Mountain Time.

Your expectations sound somewhat reasonable.

Be aware that there has never been a self so you'r concerns about how you'll go to work etc are unfounded.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


It is fine to keep reading Gateless Gatecrashers and we have another one Liberation Unleashed that is fine to read. There are a few others that are similar enough to our process that they don't get in the way. But we want to keep you focused on your own inquiry..

Loving,

I love Boulder. I grew up in Denver so I know Boulder well. Looks like we're 13 hours ahead of you.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

When I look back at the inquiry I've done, I can see the truth of that. There appears to be a body, thoughts, beliefs, sensations, etc. and I normally assume the totality of that to be a separate self named "Pete". But when I inquire deeply into any of it, there is no "me" or "Pete" there. Taken from the perspective of a newborn baby, there is no separate self. There is only present moment awareness without labels. However, the thought still arises that says, "That's impossible. There must be someone running the show otherwise you'd starve to death" or "What about all these wise holy people and scriptures that say an individual soul or something similar passes from body to body, life to life." Also, as I mentioned earlier, if I consider that there is no separate self, and I'm not in a good state of mind, I feel a deep sense of dread and loneliness.

Pete

That is great Pete. Thank you for all of that. Your expectations sound mostly reasonable.

Please use the quote function when answering one question at a time. I look at this on my phone and it helps a lot. Also later there will be a series of questions that other guides will also read and it would be nice to make it easy for them.

How did you land in Thailand?

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.


You've already mentioned

if I consider that there is no separate self, and I'm not in a good state of mind, I feel a deep sense of dread and loneliness.

Does that pretty much cover it?

Loving,

Thank you, Stacy.

Please use the quote function when answering one question at a time.

I have been using the quote function when answering your questions one at time. It is appearing that way on my computer anyway. I apologize if it isn't showing up that way on your end. Please let me know and I'll make changes as necessary.

How did you land in Thailand?

I came here eight years ago thinking I'd stay for a year or so but fell in love with Thailand and now it's home. Beautiful, inexpensive and the people are sweethearts.

Now what comes up when reading that there is no separate self, never has been, and never will be? That the whole thing was a made up story that we believed.

I'm sorry but I'm a little confused. You already asked me this question in your previous post. Are you just restating it so I know what question you're referring to?

Does that pretty much cover it?

Yes

Sorry. I think I meant that thing about Quoting for another thread. It was really early in the morning & those were mistakes.

Thailand sounds great.

Moving on ...

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

Hi Stacy, I sent you a pm.

Hey Pete,

I read your thread. I will write you a couple of suggestions/questions based on that. At the same time, always bring in what your own intuition and felt sense tells you is relevant. That open listening inward is key.

What is missing?

I don't honestly know how to answer this question without a philosophical answer and it's driving me crazy. I don't know IF there's anything missing or if that's the wrong way of approaching it altogether. It's like that optical illusion where you look at the picture from one perspective and it's the elderly woman, then you shift perspective and you see the young maiden. I can see one but not the other. It's like the Truth is staring me in the face but I can't see it. There's a riddle that I can't blah-blah-blah. During inquiry and meditation a couple times I felt like I was on the verge of a major realization but fear yanked me back down to earth.

If you stay in this "place" where it not is clear if anything is missing and it is hard to say what is experienced/happening - what happens?

"Work with that:, look at that. Can be both for longer periods "sitting with it", and also many times for short moments, just as you go about your day, or lay in bed at night.

There are a couple things maybe worth noting. One "seems" serious and the other seems somewhat silly. 1) From the perspective of a seemingly separate self, the idea that there is no self fills me with a sense of existential dread and loneliness. 2) If I realize there is no separate self and there is some sort of major awakening (as some experience), how am I going to show up to work tomorrow and deal with mundane BS? I'm not a millionaire. How will I take care of myself?

Can you get yourself in touch with this sense of dread and loneliness? If yes, please do, and then just stay with the felt sense, and be curious about what happens. If it is not really available, do this next time it spontaneously comes up. Write me what happens, what is seen, when there is a chance to be with this.


Feel free to write as often as you want, and also to take as long time as you want between writing. Let it be intuitive.

Hi Elad,

I've sat with your questions in silence before work and moments during work.

If you stay in this "place" where it not is clear if anything is missing and it is hard to say what is experienced/happening - what happens?

What happens is thoughts and feelings arise.

Frustration. Feeling like I've wasted years chasing after "The Final Answer," the thing that will solve my problems and make it all make sense. But there's also a sense of... I had to go through all that seeking to realize I can't find true nature through acquiring more concepts and beliefs, because it's not something you can achieve through thinking. It's not something to be "achieved" at all.

This is not direct experience so I don't know if I should put this here but... There's a quote from Ramakrishna that says, "Only two kinds of people can attain self-knowledge: those whose minds are not encumbered at all with learning, that is to say, not overcrowded with thoughts borrowed from others; and those who, after studying all the scriptures and sciences, have come to realize that they know nothing." That's how I feel. After years of chasing wisdom in various places, I realize I know nothing.

Just staying with the EXPERIENCE of "where it is not clear if anything is missing..." The mind searches for answers, like a computer searching for the right file. My face scrunches up. There is a sense of wanting to please you and say the right thing. There's a feeling like a child throwing his hands up and yelling, "I'm never going to get this!" It's just a frustrating and uncertain place to be.

There is also a sense that everything is perfect as it is. Everything was, is and will be fine. The Truth can never leave, it's always here and eventually the clouds will part and I will see the sun, so to speak. There is a sort of grandfatherly wisdom telling me to relax and be patient.

In writing all this I realize that there's a lot of thoughts here, not necessarily direct experience. I'm not sure if this is what you're asking for when you ask me to notice "what's happening?"

Can you get yourself in touch with this sense of dread and loneliness? If yes, please do, and then just stay with the felt sense, and be curious about what happens. If it is not really available, do this next time it spontaneously comes up. Write me what happens, what is seen, when there is a chance to be with this.

From the perspective of what I take to be a limited, individual self... it feels a bit terrifying. There's a mild sense of panic like I'm at the edge of a cliff. There's a feeling that I don't want to go there mentally. "They don't really exist, I don't really exist, we're phantoms living in a phantom world." "There is only oneness and 'I' am one with it, so 'I' am all alone." "If I realize fully that there is no self, everything will become meaningless. Everything I've done will mean nothing."

I assume there's fearful thoughts arising because those thoughts that see themselves as an individual self fear being destroyed. The ego fearing death. And the realization that really there's no such thing as ego, it's just a label, so what is afraid?

Then there's the thought that basically anyone who has had a self-realization expresses the exact opposite of all this fear. Awakening is usually a wonderful "experience" accompanied by a lot of joy.

And who is it that's fearful? The metaphor that has had a lot of meaning for me lately is the self as a hall of mirrors. The dread and loneliness feelings are thoughts reflecting beliefs reflecting memories, and on and on.

Yes, there is fear occurring at times but the seeking and longing is a lot of fun and very interesting at times also. That may be why I'm so addicted to seeking.

So once again, I'm wondering if I'm doing this "right". There's a lot of concepts expressed here but I don't know if that's what's most useful. Please let me know.

And a practical question... the LU website for the past couple days. When I go on it during US daytime hours it doesn't always load and crashes a lot. During US nighttime hours it does fine. Is this common?

Hey Pete,

You are doing well. As long as you bring maximal honesty and return continually to what you actually experience and discover here and now, which is always more important than what you say, this process will continue to take care of itself... Oh and I can kinda relate to your Ramakrishna kind, too.


Don't worry about writing a lot or a little. Just do your very best to only share what is your innermost thoughts, feelings and experience.

There is also a sense that everything is perfect as it is. Everything was, is and will be fine. The Truth can never leave, it's always here.

Take many short moments resting in this sense. What happens when you stay in it?

and eventually the clouds will part and I will see the sun, so to speak.

Who or what will be able to see the sun?

I am not asking for an intellectual answer, or for your conviction, I am asking you to really look at it freshly, again and again, and see what is seen.


Regarding the dread and fear, next time you can get in touch with it, really hone in on JUST the felt sense of it. And stay with that. What happens?

Last thing for now. The site is sometimes weak - old system... I guess it has more traffic during US daytime and thus crashes more. Btw if ever you don't hear from me for a few days or can't get on the system please write me on

eladexplore1111@gmail.com

There is also a sense that everything is perfect as it is. Everything was, is and will be fine. The Truth can never leave, it's always here.

Take many short moments resting in this sense. What happens when you stay in it?

I breathe deeper, I relax and take a full breath, a feeling like my mind is unlocking resulting in less tension in my head and shoulders, presence in the here and now, letting upsetting events go rather than dwelling on them, my heart/chest seems to unclench. There is a knowing that even at what appeared to be the worst of times, life worked itself out somehow. The Truth IS what IS, so arguing with it is kind of pointless.

Who or what will be able to see the sun?

Good point. To use another sun metaphor, I've heard Rupert Spira say something like, "Can the sun shine on itself? No, the sun is self-illuminating."

To say "I" will be able to see the sun shining through the clouds is to put "me" separate at a distance from my true nature/the Truth/Buddha Nature or whatever you want to call it. It is not separate and there is no distance. The clouds obscuring the sun is just a concept because there is no "me" and "it" with something separating what is thought to be two entities.

If there is no self, there is no one able to see what is imagined to be the sun. Or you could say "me" and the clouds are imaginary. The sun/true nature/the Truth, is the only real thing.

The sun, the clouds, and me - there appear to be three separate things here. Maybe there's value in this metaphor when it's not taken so literally but it points out how we are conditioned to think over a lifetime. For example, in religion we're taught that here's me and there's God somewhere out there. A connection has to be established through prayer so we can communicate with God. And people sometimes say they felt lost in the wilderness because they lost their faith or connection to God.

Regarding the dread and fear, next time you can get in touch with it, really hone in on JUST the felt sense of it. And stay with that. What happens?

My heart sinks, my breathing gets shallow, my brow furrows, fight/flight/freeze... I feel freeze, a feeling like "I could take flight but where could I run to?", kind of a gross sinking feeling in my body. There is a feeling of resistance in my mind, like "I don't want to go there." There's a trapped animal kind of feeling.

Hey Pete,

Good stuff. Now stay even more raw, letting go of even concepts like "true nature" and everything from other teachers, what is actually here now? Is there a self?

If yes, what is it?

If no, just stay with that. How is that?

If the intensity/dread/etc comes - good. Stay with it, FEEL. What is it, closer than any concepts?

As you know, these questions are not meant to elicit a "right answer" based on "knowing". They are "triggers" to SEE. So the most important thing when you engage them, and even when you write, is not what is thought or written. It is what is directly SEEN.

Hi Elad,

Could you clarify what you mean by SEE a bit for me? I assume that you don't just mean things I see in the visual sense in my mind's eye. It could come in through the any of the senses? An intuition? Is it more about a physical body experience?

The confusion comes from SEEING things through thoughts. A thought is something that I seem to most often SEE with. That's how I've been considering it anyway. Question A elicits thought/memory/metaphor B.

In writing this I realize it's my mind trying to think its way through this rather than allowing things to happen. But any advice is appreciated.