It's hard to accept

[JonnyP]

LOL ;)

[Magdalena]

Hey Jonny,

How's the koan been working? 😉

Can Jonny be found?

Do thoughts deserve to be believed?

[JonnyP]

I drank the bottle of Salamander goop as soon as I could !
Jonny can't be 'found' but ....... not sure what else to write, over and above what I've written in the past...
I was wondering over the weekend though, if perhaps I'm focusing too much on reconciling Jonny's non-existence with everything else, rather than seeing through Jonny and letting him stay there... hmmmmm

[Magdalena]

Hello there, Jonny,

l drank the bottle of Salamander goop as soon as I could !

Seems to me you'd drunk a lotl of it already. When you first got the idea that something is missing, that things are not OK as they are, and so they could be different somehow. All that crazy lalalala dance is very much like the seeking, isn't it? Looks good, but feels melancholy. And there is no turning back.

Jonny can't be 'found' but ....... not sure what else to write, over and above what I've written in the past...

That's fine.

perhaps I'm focusing too much on reconciling Jonny's non-existence with everything else, rather than seeing through Jonny and letting him stay there...

Now, that's a big one.

Jonny is not going anywhere, but once seen through, chances are he will be less of a pain the ass. Which is a good thing, right?

As for

reconciling Jonny's non-existence with everything else

Why don't you spend the next day or two looking to see if anything needs to be reconciled with anything else?

I don't mean that mental rabbit hole of "who, what and why" though - I mean simply watching out for anything to be reconciled, in daily life?

Please come back to report on specific situations in which some sort of reconciling is called for.

Oh, and don't forget the sweet spot, lyrical or not. 😉

[JonnyP]

Hi :)

Seems to me you'd drunk a lotl of it already. When you first got the idea that something is missing, that things are not OK as they are, and so they could be different somehow. All that crazy lalalala dance is very much like the seeking, isn't it? Looks good, but feels melancholy. And there is no turning back.

You're right about all of that, but I hadn't considered the melancholy thing..... but I suppose that is in there somewhere .. hmm

Jonny is not going anywhere, but once seen through, chances are he will be less of a pain the ass. Which is a good thing, right?

Lol... Some of the things you write just make me smile ! :)

Why don't you spend the next day or two looking to see if anything needs to be reconciled with anything else?

I don't mean that mental rabbit hole of "who, what and why" though - I mean simply watching out for anything to be reconciled, in daily life?

Please come back to report on specific situations in which some sort of reconciling is called for.

Oh, and don't forget the sweet spot, lyrical or not. 😉

I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding this. But I'm pretty sure that what ever I might find is going to be a thought thing isn't it? So that will be just dismissed as 'thought stuff' ?
Am I missing something here ?
As an example, I often find myself trying to reconcile being with this 'stuff' (seeking or sweetspot), and sexual desire. An element of guilt usually comes in. Both 'things' seem very 'real' and justified, but the desire seems a bit like going back to sleep...then the guilt comes in.. Is this the kind of thing you're talking about ?

[Magdalena]

Hey Jonny,

I'm pretty sure that what ever I might find is going to be a thought thing isn't it?

🙂🙂🙂

l often find myself trying to reconcile being with this 'stuff' (seeking or sweetspot), and sexual desire. An element of guilt usually comes in. Both 'things' seem very 'real' and justified, but the desire seems a bit like going back to sleep...then the guilt comes in.. Is this the kind of thing you're talking about ?

You raised the issue that some things may appear incompatible, and this is as good an example as any other.

When i suggest looking to see if there is any incompatibility in these two, can you find any?

So what you're saying here is based on thought, sure.
No need to dismiss it - let's look into it - like, let's examine the beliefs that sit behind it.

When you say

the desire seems a bit like going back to sleep...then the guilt comes in..

I'm wondering about the connection between desire, sleep and guilt. I can't think of anything but the rather commonplace idea that sexual desire is "dirty", "unspiritual", an aspect of our animal nature. What makes you think there is any validity to it?

Or is there something else behind it?

In other words, what's wrong with sexual desire, and why does it seem incompatible with the seeing that Jonny is about as real as thinking makes him??

[JonnyP]

Hi Magdalena :)

When i suggest looking to see if there is any incompatibility in these two, can you find any?

I can see that it's ridiculous to say that either one is inherently 'wrong'.. As I write this, I'm scrambling to find the words to explain it...But of course it's all thought. The thoughts are saying, and feeling is saying, that indulging in pleasures of the flesh is akin to buying a sports car in the hope it will make me fulfilled. Of course it won't, but I still like sports cars and I still like sex. So I think what I'm saying is that it seems like a distraction from the 'awakening / no-self ' stuff.
I know that's all thoughts, but I do know (at least I think I do) that when I'm in the sexual desire zone, the 'sweet spot' zone takes a back seat. That's where I find it hard to reconcile.
I do realise that it must be possible to find the 'sweet spot' in all circumstances, whether it's sex or having your hand chopped off. Simply because it's always there, and it's just the tuning in to it that's the issue.
I feel like I'm answering my own query .....am I ?
I think it gets all 'muddy' in my mind, because in some ways Non Dual (ND) stuff spoils sex/sports cars. It takes the 'reality' away from it. It makes it seem so superficial in comparison. And then the other way round, sex/sports cars spoils ND, because it brings me back to earth with a bump, and makes ND seem irrelevant .
I can totally see ALL the thoughts and judgements in all that...but that hasn't helped to clear the mud yet.

I'm wondering about the connection between desire, sleep and guilt. I can't think of anything but the rather commonplace idea that sexual desire is "dirty", "unspiritual", an aspect of our animal nature. What makes you think there is any validity to it?

I think sex is a beautiful, wonderful and endlessly interesting activity. I don't feel like I have any issues around the 'OKness' of sex. Part of me has always felt that there is actually a great connection between sex and spirituality. With 'connection' being the operative word. There's something about sex that is thought-less and 'pure' in the authentic sense. Shared with another being, the potential for 'connection' is tremendous.
I know I'm contradicting my self in some ways...... As I said... it's all very 'muddy' in this head of mine...
There is a belief that they're not compatible. At the same time, another belief says that they definitely are.
So I suppose all I can learn from that, is that I have opposing beliefs !

In other words, what's wrong with sexual desire, and why does it seem incompatible with the seeing that Jonny is about as real as thinking makes him??

I think I chose sexual desire because it's upper most in my mind, but really it could be any desire. The cliché of the sports car, the trip to Venezuela, the latest 'I' phone etc etc etc. There's a note of falseness about it. This is not a new thing for me, I've always felt confused by people 'wanting' things. Most of my 'wantings' have been me copying other people, so there's always been a felt sense of 'faking' it. Never quite believing in what I'm doing....... This is possibly drifting too much into the realm of 'Therapy' and self worth etc, so maybe I should climb out of that rabbit hole before I dig too deep !

If there's a knowing that something is inherently false, it seems hard to take it seriously, so when I catch myself being prey to that falseness, it feels like a failure... Of course that is a thought, value judgement. But there I go again, trying to reconcile things that apparently don't need reconciling.
I suppose they can't not be compatible. They are both there, so they must, by definition, be compatible. So why is there a 'muddy' fight about it ?
It seems that if the virtual reality analogy is used, then the knowledge you're playing a game would seem to imply that the game experience is not to be taken seriously, so if I do, that means I'm lost in it......

[Magdalena]

Hello Jonny,

The thoughts are saying, and feeling is saying, that indulging in pleasures of the flesh is akin to buying a sports car in the hope it will make me fulfilled. Of course it won't, but I still like sports cars and I still like sex.

That's perfectly fine. There is nothing wrong with enjoying anything, "pleasures of the flesh" included.

But the phrase "pleasures of the flesh" itself comes from the bible, doesn't it, and it may be that this is the source of some of your apparently conflicting ideas. We sometimes unknowingly imbibe whole ideologies with bits of language that made it into common usage.

l do realise that it must be possible to find the 'sweet spot' in all circumstances

And how would you know what "must be possible" to do and in what circumstances?

Whatever is or is not possible in any circumstances is the only way for things to be. If things could be happening any differently than they are, they simply would be.
Regardless of Jonny's ideas of what "must be" happening.

Simply because it's always there, and it's just the tuning in to it that's the issue.

So feel free to experiment with it, but don't pretend you know the outcomes of the experiments.

Oh, one more thing: nothing is ever an issue unless thinking makes it so.

in some ways Non Dual (ND) stuff spoils sex/sports cars. It takes the 'reality' away from it. It makes it seem so superficial in comparison. And then the other way round, sex/sports cars spoils ND, because it brings me back to earth with a bump, and makes ND seem irrelevant .

Both are as real as anything else. No need to overthink either of them. Why not simply take things as they are? Enjoy what's available in each moment? One moment it may be sex, the next moment - the sweet spot, and in the next - something completely different.

Part of me has always felt that there is actually a great connection between sex and spirituality.

Tell me: do you find anything of what we've been talking about here to be "spiritual"?
How is seeing through the self illusion "spiritual"? Please elaborate.

There's something about sex that is thought-less and 'pure' in the authentic sense.

Absolutely.
Is there anything that is not "pure" and "authentic"?

Shared with another being, the potential for 'connection' is tremendous.

"Connection" can only occur if there is a sense of being separate to begin with: "me" vs. "another being".
What if the "separation" is only imagined?

it could be any desire. The cliché of the sports car, the trip to Venezuela, the latest 'I' phone etc etc etc. There's a note of falseness about it.

There is, as long as we consider ourselves separate from "what is".

But "what is" also includes sex, sports cars, travelling, iphones, and everything else, no exception. All the joys that can be experienced, and all the sorrows. Nothing is excluded (even the imagined separation).

Most of my 'wantings' have been me copying other people, so there's always been a felt sense of 'faking' it. Never quite believing in what I'm doing.......

What's in the way of being authentic about the stuff that you really want?

Why bother copying people? Why not leave them to their wants, and pursue your own? With full acceptance that they are all included in the flow of life, and so they appear, change or disappear as they do?

there I go again, trying to reconcile things that apparently don't need reconciling.

Totally. Things are simple when we're not overthinking them.
They don't need our reconciling, acknowledging, judging, approving or disapproving.
They simply are.
Life simply is.

the knowledge you're playing a game would seem to imply that the game experience is not to be taken seriously, so if I do, that means I'm lost in it......

If you do, that only means that you do. Nothing more to it.

[JonnyP]

Hi Magdalena :)

But the phrase "pleasures of the flesh" itself comes from the bible, doesn't it, and it may be that this is the source of some of your apparently conflicting ideas. We sometimes unknowingly imbibe whole ideologies with bits of language that made it into common usage.

There might be some cultural or language differences at play here, but I only use the phrase "pleasures of the flesh" in an ironic, humorous sense. I have no truck with any religious dogma trying to dictate people's sexual expression. I'm all for everyone doing whatever the hell they want, as long as no one is being hurt, non-consensually that is. I find sex endlessly fascinating.

And how would you know what "must be possible" to do and in what circumstances?

I get the feeling that I might only be opening my mouth just to change feet ! But...As I understand it, (I don't know what other words to use there) It's not a question of circumstances or possibility. It, although it's not an 'it' is just the case, without beginning or end, irrespective of whether it's noticed or not.... I know that I'm repeating something that I have heard, but I'm not wrong either am I ?
Alright, I've just read back what I've written here (I started it yesterday) So I don't know what's possible. I can't know anything and that triggers a feeling of frustration. I have often heard that 'it's right here in front of my face' .... etc etc etc and I can't trust that, even though it might be true because I haven't actually experienced it my self....You caught me repeating other people's chit chat, and that annoys me..

Oh, one more thing: nothing is ever an issue unless thinking makes it so.

I don't know why, but my answers this time around feel more clumsy than usual

This quote from you, although it's not a new thing to be reading, just hits hard. It's like I'm boxed (as in the sport) into a corner. And feeling quite punch drunk with it....

Both are as real as anything else. No need to overthink either of them. Why not simply take things as they are? Enjoy what's available in each moment? One moment it may be sex, the next moment - the sweet spot, and in the next - something completely different.

I thought the target/aim/ was to practice being in, or noticing the 'sweet spot' as often as possible so that it would tend to become natural and normal. So doesn't that mean finding the 'sweet spot' in all things would be the ideal, whether it's sex or having your hand chopped off..... practice happens or practice doesn't happen, but one is more likely to be conducive to awakening is it not ?

Tell me: do you find anything of what we've been talking about here to be "spiritual"?
How is seeing through the self illusion "spiritual"? Please elaborate.

Wow ! Why am I finding this so hard this time !!
I have absolutely no idea what 'spiritual' even means, and I really don't care. I mean, I know people associate the word with all sorts of things, from religions to fairies to crystals etc etc etc. If I ever use the word, it's only for convenience.
When I use that word, what I'm really talking about is 'connection'. Connection in that indefinable sense, that feels yummy, at a level of yummyness that's off the charts of any measurability of yummyness.

Absolutely.
Is there anything that is not "pure" and "authentic"?

Please visualise me hanging my head in the realisation that I'm utterly clueless...
EVERYTHING is pure and authentic, just by virtue of the fact that it 'exists' or is 'happening'. It can't be any other way because there is no other way. It's just thought judgement that makes me put one thing above another..
How can I fucking RECONCILE this with wanting something or not wanting something. How can preferences just happen? AND I can see your answer to this....'Things just happen if you look' and of course you're right, so why am I struggling with this so much !? It's like trying to juggle with 3 bars of wet soap...while someone is pointing a water hose at my face.

"Connection" can only occur if there is a sense of being separate to begin with: "me" vs. "another being".
What if the "separation" is only imagined?

This almost makes me cry

But "what is" also includes sex, sports cars, travelling, iphones, and everything else, no exception. All the joys that can be experienced, and all the sorrows. Nothing is excluded (even the imagined separation).

And breathe.....

What's in the way of being authentic about the stuff that you really want?

What I really want has always been a mystery to me. I look at other people with a mixture of awe and jealousy. I've looked into this in therapy. Obviously there's a psychological origin to it. That's why this subject of ND feels so 'special, because with the exception of sex, it's the only thing I've ever truly 'wanted'
So I suppose the only thing in the way of that, is me. The pain in the arse that is Jonny.

If you do, that only means that you do. Nothing more to it.

But that means I'm lost, and I'm just an ant in the game, clueless and blind. I don't want that.


This has been a hard slog this time...and I don't know why

[Magdalena]

Hey Jonny,

I can't know anything and that triggers a feeling of frustration.

Why not see it as freedom rarher than frustration?
Like, you don't have to know anything?

You caught me repeating other people's chit chat, and that annoys me.

I didn't LOL - you noticed it yourself.
Happy to help anyway.😉

l thought the target/aim/ was to practice being in, or noticing the 'sweet spot' as often as possible so that it would tend to become natural and normal.

Simply directing attention to it will do.
And no, it's not the target/aim.

So doesn't that mean finding the 'sweet spot' in all things would be the ideal, whether it's sex or having your hand chopped off.....

If it's there all the time anyway, what's there to find? 🙂

practice happens or practice doesn't happen, but one is more likely to be conducive to awakening is it not ?

I wouldn't necessarily insist on calling it a practice, but I know some people would. Some people would say, yes, it is "conducive" to "awakening", but hey - what do we know?

Not to mention that anything being "conducive" to "awakening" is an idea invented by people.

Look, the sweet spot is there all the time. It doesn't go home or take a holiday.

If you remember to pay attention to it, fine. If you don't, nothing really changes, and it's still there. No need to beat yourself up if you notice it's been forgotten. Just notice and move on.

Don't fall for the belief that anything depends on what you do and how you do it.

Nothing is ever wrong/an issue/a problem unless thinking makes it so. 😉

The sweet spot is there also when you're making love and experiencing it as free from thought, pure and authentic.

It gets to be recognised in so many different ways: during sex, sports or arts activities, hiking in nature, etc. It's not only what arises during some sort of meditative or other practices. It's always there, whether we are aware of it or not.

Wow ! Why am I finding this so hard this time !!

Don't know.
Maybe because you're coming closer to some central belief that holds everything together?

l have absolutely no idea what 'spiritual' even means, and I really don't care. I mean, I know people associate the word with all sorts of things, from religions to fairies to crystals etc etc etc. If I ever use the word, it's only for convenience.

It may seem so, but words carry their messages that we are not always aware of. What "spiritual" means in most generał terms, is "related to spirit" (whatever that may be) as opposed to matter/"flesh". It's an ancient philosophical idea that underlies much of so-called western culture. If you receive any sort of western-style education, it's there in the books they ask you to read, the art they ask you to look at, and so on. It's in the films you watch, and in all sorts of cultural narratives, like what it means to be a good person, etc. We may believe it's b/s etc., but it has already penetrated deep down. It won't hurt to be aware of that.
As a carrier of ideas, language shapes the way we think, but that does not mean it can make things real. Which is why I pay much attention to words: in their own way, they are important. Make sense?

EVERYTHING is pure and authentic, just by virtue of the fact that it 'exists' or is 'happening'. It can't be any other way because there is no other way. It's just thought judgement that makes me put one thing above another..

I'm glad you're seeing this.

How can I fucking RECONCILE this with wanting something or not wanting something.

Can wanting or not wanting be any less pure or authentic than anything else?
What's there to reconcile??

How can preferences just happen?

I have no idea, but they do.
I mean did you imagine that seeing through the illusion of the separate self would automatically erase wants and preferences?
Whatever gave you this idea?

That's why this subject of ND feels so 'special, because with the exception of sex, it's the only thing I've ever truly 'wanted'
So I suppose the only thing in the way of that, is me. The pain in the arse that is Jonny.

Let me challenge you here: what if nothing, literally nothing, is in the way?

If you do, that only means that you do. Nothing more to it.

But that means I'm lost, and I'm just an ant in the game, clueless and blind.

No.
It only means you've taken part of a story seriously. That's all there is to it.
Happens to everyone, including the "awakened" ones, if they care to admit it.
The difference is they would probably not see it as a problem, just recognise it and move on.

This has been a hard slog this time...and I don't know why.

Why not try and find out for yourself?

Next time you're making love, try and see if you can actually point to where one body ends and the other begins.
Is there a boundary anywhere unless you think about it?
Or is it all but a bunch of bodily sensations: sight, touch, etc. that we have been conditioned to mentally label as "me" and "another"?
Watch.
Don't think about it.
Just watch.

[JonnyP]

Why not see it as freedom rarher than frustration?
Like, you don't have to know anything?

You make it sound so simple !
Yes, and I know the answer to that is " It is simple ! "
Rrrrrrrrgggggghh

Simply directing attention to it will do.
And no, it's not the target/aim.

I knew I'd be in trouble when I used those words... Is 'intention' still too strong ? Or are you pointing out that there's an implied doer with all three of those words ?

If it's there all the time anyway, what's there to find? 🙂

Ooooooh this feels like a crux point .... If it's there all the time, and that implies that there is nothing to find, then that in turn means it's 'something' that I already know is there. That's the only reason for me to know I don't need to look for 'it'. Is that right ?
I feel like I'm in the middle of a frozen lake with a pic axe in my hand, but when I try to pick up the axe, it's not made of anything, and my hands just slip through it. It's maddening.....

Don't fall for the belief that anything depends on what you do and how you do it.

This just makes me giggle !

It gets to be recognised in so many different ways: during sex, sports or arts activities, hiking in nature, etc. It's not only what arises during some sort of meditative or other practices. It's always there, whether we are aware of it or not.

That feels like a hug :)

We may believe it's b/s etc., but it has already penetrated deep down. It won't hurt to be aware of that.

That does make me think, and I take your point.

As a carrier of ideas, language shapes the way we think, but that does not mean it can make things real. Which is why I pay much attention to words: in their own way, they are important. Make sense?

Absolutely it does. I think I might previously have been a bit dismissive of it, but I hear you now .

Can wanting or not wanting be any less pure or authentic than anything else?

No, I suppose not....

What's there to reconcile??

Well, nothing apparently !

I mean did you imagine that seeing through the illusion of the separate self would automatically erase wants and preferences?
Whatever gave you this idea?

LOL... No, I never thought that

Let me challenge you here: what if nothing, literally nothing, is in the way?

Let me guess... The idea that something is in the way, is just a thought ?

Next time you're making love, try and see if you can actually point to where one body ends and the other begins.
Is there a boundary anywhere unless you think about it?
Or is it all but a bunch of bodily sensations: sight, touch, etc. that we have been conditioned to mentally label as "me" and "another"?
Watch.
Don't think about it.
Just watch.

We may have to wait a while for a response to this ! lol
No love making on the horizon unfortunately. But I'll keep it in mind
If I try to look from memory, it's hard to see past the sensations if I'm honest.

[Magdalena]

Hey Jonny,

Is 'intention' still too strong ? Or are you pointing out that there's an implied doer with all three of those words ?

Aren't aims/targets/intentions all but a bunch of thoughts?
Isn't staying in the sweet spot simply happening?

it's 'something' that I already know is there. That's the only reason for me to know I don't need to look for 'it'. Is that right ?

Don't ask me.
Look for yourself.
What are you looking to find right now?

l feel like I'm in the middle of a frozen lake with a pic axe in my hand, but when I try to pick up the axe, it's not made of anything, and my hands just slip through it. It's maddening.....

As they say, there is nothing to grasp, you know.

The idea that something is in the way, is just a thought ?

You tell me.
LOOK.

We may have to wait a while for a response to this ! lol ...
If I try to look from memory, it's hard to see past the sensations if I'm honest.

I'm not asking you to look past the sensations.
I'm actually asking you to stay with the sensations - pure as they are, uncovered by the thought labels.

So try this meantime.
Body Exercises
Head Exercise
Let’s examine the solidity of the head.
Press a finger down onto the top of the ‘head’.
Notice what is actually present.
Is it a head, or is it just a sensation labelled ‘pressure’ and a story ABOUT a head?
Do the same with a finger on each side of the head.
Is a head actually found, or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points, or is it just a thought that says there must be something between them?

Introductory Body Exercise
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?
Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering,
having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Enjoy 😉

[JonnyP]

Aren't aims/targets/intentions all but a bunch of thoughts?
Isn't staying in the sweet spot simply happening?

Yes, staying in the sweet spot is just happening. And, there is being in the sweet spot and not being in the sweet spot, or perhaps more accurately, there is not noticing being in the sweet spot. So there is a moment where the recollection of the sweet spot comes to the fore, and something is born to re-engage. Can I say that ?

I've noticed after a walk with Jess, (dog) that I have confusion about who is speaking and when. It feels quite fundamental to my process with this.
I don't know who speaks when I talk to you, and I don't know who you are either. I think I can say that with 'unawake' people, their experience is of a self that they perceive as them, talking to another, who also believes themselves to be a separate self. Then there are apparent 'awakened' people who also communicate with non-awakened people who have no idea that the other person is 'awakened'. In all situations communication on the 'normal human level' takes place. I suspect you're going to point out that they are not separate, and I get that, but I'm talking about the experience of the 'awakened' person (please excuse the clumsy words) You, for example, are part of an experience that is different to how it was before your 'shift'. But in both before and after situations, you're still communicating, and possibly still experiencing some of the attributes of a self. Like reactivity in some situations etc etc. So it seems to follow that you can tell when you're 'with' the self, and when you're not. So I'm curious to hear how the difference shows it's self. The reason I ask, is because thoughts still happen, so is it the case that as long as there is thought, you are not in the sweet spot? As long as I am talking with you, and therefore thinking, am I actually stopping the sweet spot from being available ? Should I stop talking about it ? It feels like my talks with you are enormously helpful, but that's thought isn't it ! But I do feel incrementally closer to something. I think I've said before that although I can see that seeking will never lead me 'there', but seeking has 'led' me to where I am now, which is hugely different to where I was 8 years ago. So thinking, talking has 'helped'. Should I just stop everything and just 'be' with the sweet spot when I can ? But again, it seems that inquiry has been, and is generally deemed to be useful....

Don't ask me.
Look for yourself.
What are you looking to find right now?

Oh god, I don't know ! (noticing the habitual use of the word 'god')

As they say, there is nothing to grasp, you know.

Just wait for the ice to melt then maybe !

The idea that something is in the way, is just a thought ?
You tell me.
LOOK.

Well yes it's a thought, I've seen that......but apparently I haven't 'SEEN' it

Body Exercises
Head Exercise

Yes I have done this kind of thing before, and I can see that any statements about what is there, are though interpretations. It is impossible to 'actually' see or directly 'experience' anything. It will always be though a filter of thought

Introductory Body Exercise

There is only ever raw sensory data. It is nothing 'specific' before thought

I have played with 'games' like this since I was a youngish child. In my 20s I would smoke weed with mates and try to get them to see that they never actually 'see' anything, and that everything is just an interpretation... " You're doing my head in Jon ! " a common reaction ! lol

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Hard to put into words, but I'd say it's akin to an amorphous cloud of variable density, with no indication as to it's scale or boundaries

[Magdalena]

Hey Jonny,

there is being in the sweet spot and not being in the sweet spot, or perhaps more accurately, there is not noticing being in the sweet spot.

Yes, the only difference is in the noticing. Nothing else really changes, does it?

l don't know who speaks when I talk to you, and I don't know who you are either.

I don't know either. Lol

there are apparent 'awakened' people who also communicate with non-awakened people who have no idea that the other person is 'awakened'.

Lol
Can't you see that all this thing about the awakened vs. the unawakened is a manmade story? A fiction?

in both before and after situations, you're still communicating, and possibly still experiencing some of the attributes of a self.

Lol
It's not like I spend long winter nights thinking about "before" and "after". But, yes, sometimes the sense of me can come up. If it does, it does - who cares? (literally)

you can tell when you're 'with' the self, and when you're not.

I wouldn't call it that, but then I honestly don't care. Self or no self, it's business as usual.

because thoughts still happen, so is it the case that as long as there is thought, you are not in the sweet spot?

Of course thoughts happen. Right now it looks like there's major resolutions about to happen (possibly) and it's only natural that thoughts arrive and present various options on what to do next. But I don't quite see how this process could ever eliminate the underlying silence, which is my way to refer to "the sweet spot".

As long as I am talking with you, and therefore thinking, am I actually stopping the sweet spot from being available ?

No.

Should I stop talking about it ?

You really think it matters what you do or don't do?

Should I just stop everything and just 'be' with the sweet spot when I can ? But again, it seems that inquiry has been, and is generally deemed to be useful....

Follow your gut in this, but don't fall for other ppl's stories, mine included.

What are you looking to find right now?

Oh god, I don't know ! ...
Just wait for the ice to melt then maybe !

What would that involve exactly?
How will you know it has melted?
How do you know it has not melted already?
What is missing?
What is "hard to accept" right now, as per your thread title?

The idea that something is in the way, is just a thought ?
Well yes it's a thought, I've seen that......but apparently I haven't 'SEEN' it

You have seen it, as you say, but it hasn't sunk in yet. It is all good.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Hard to put into words, but I'd say it's akin to an amorphous cloud of variable density, with no indication as to it's scale or boundaries

Yes


When stroking your dog, is it possible to tell, without resorting to thought, where your hand ends and the dog's fur begins?
Where the "me"ends and "another" begins?
LOOK.

[JonnyP]

Hey Magdalena :)

Yes, the only difference is in the noticing. Nothing else really changes, does it?

The way I feel in my body and mind is different. My body is calmer and slightly tingly, and my mind is kind of 'flatter'... like a tense blob that relaxed in to a pool of 'stuff'

Can't you see that all this thing about the awakened vs. the unawakened is a manmade story? A fiction?

I can see how attempts to describe it are manmade, but the experience of one and the other appear to be quite different, aren't they ?

It's not like I spend long winter nights thinking about "before" and "after". But, yes, sometimes the sense of me can come up. If it does, it does - who cares?

I'm only interested from the perspective of noticing the difference, and 'feeling' the nature of what it is that notices. I'm looking for how I can tell when I'm in one or the other.... Right now for instance, as I write this, all my thoughts and attention are on the subject, but I'm guessing I'm not with 'underlying silence' (I like that) just by virtue of the fact I'm 'thinking' about it. Or can there be 'thoughts' from that underlying silence ?

Of course thoughts happen. Right now it looks like there's major resolutions about to happen (possibly) and it's only natural that thoughts arrive and present various options on what to do next. But I don't quite see how this process could ever eliminate the underlying silence, which is my way to refer to "the sweet spot".

I suppose I'm trying to be precise and efficient, and be adept at noticing what is there and when. You have 'seen' what we're talking about, so I can imagine that it as natural and anything can be. All I can do is chip away at seeming blocks.

As long as I am talking with you, and therefore thinking, am I actually stopping the sweet spot from being available ?
No.

I find this fascinating. I thought that as long as thought was at the fore, then the 'silence' would be muted at least.

You really think it matters what you do or don't do?

This made me laugh :) .... But on a serious note, I must admit this not mattering thing is odd. Because surely, in general, people who seek and dig and try etc etc are more likely to "See" than someone who has never even thought about it. Obviously there are exceptions, but in the main isn't that fair to say ? And if so, it would suggest that what I might do, might matter...

What would that involve exactly?
How will you know it has melted?
How do you know it has not melted already?
What is missing?
What is "hard to accept" right now, as per your thread title?

I have no idea what would be involved..
I suppose I'd know it was melted when I had 'Seen' as you have.
It doesn't appear to have melted because I have not 'Seen' as you have.
Nothing is missing apparently, but that is just me repeating what I've heard. It feels like some point of awareness is missing.
I actually don't recall naming my thread "Hard to Accept". I was surprised to see it labeled like that. I guess I must have written it somewhere..But it is a good question... I've found myself recently asking myself what it is I'm doing with this. It's like I'm only playing with it and not taking it seriously....even though it is currently the most important thing in my life. If I was taking it seriously, I would have "Seen" wouldn't I ?
It's hard to accept that I'm not who I think I am....pretty simple really !

When stroking your dog, is it possible to tell, without resorting to thought, where your hand ends and the dog's fur begins?
Where the "me"ends and "another" begins?
LOOK.

No, there is no definition. No clear boundaries.