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[user]

Good evening David!

Where are they coming from and going to?

I don't know. The only thing I can tell is that they seem to appear out of nowhere, and then they disappear.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No, they appeared on their own.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Nope, that was out of my control.

Can you predict your next thought?

No, that does not seem to be possible.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

No.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Thoughts can make it seem that way, but no.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No, that's going to be impossible since there is no way to predict when they are coming.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

I need to investigate this further.


//Tom

[user]

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

I can see that they aren't necessarily organized. That they wouldn't take content from each other I can't see passed. But sure, I can also see that it's only thought saying that and nothing that can be confirmed in DE.

[Windaway]

Are you thought?

Can thgouht know anything?


For this exploration sit on a chair. Close your eyes or look straight forward.

Eyes open (looking straight) or eyes close you have no visual perception of this “chair”. Correct?

Thought tell you that : “this sensation is a chair.”
Thought can show you a mental image of a chair.
But is concept and image the actual chair?

Does thought can know the actual chair on which you’re sitting?
Can the thought: “this is a chair.” Know the actual chair?
Can the image of “a chair” know the actual chair?

I use the world chair but all you know in your direct experience is a sensation.
So, the question is not can thought know a chair but can thought know sensation?

Is the actual sensation you feel right now known by thought or by you?

Take any thought popping into your mind. And check if any thought can know a sensation.

Maybe is the other way around?
Can sensation know thought?
Is this sensation knowing the mental image of a chair?
Is this sensation knowing the concept: Chair?

If not. Then two questions:
What is that which knows?
Who is the one who knows?

[user]

Good evening David!

Are you thought?

No, I am not thought.

Can thought know anything?

I highly doubt that.

Eyes open (looking straight) or eyes close you have no visual perception of this “chair”. Correct?

Yes.

Thought tell you that : “this sensation is a chair.”
Thought can show you a mental image of a chair.
But is concept and image the actual chair?

No, they are not.

Does thought can know the actual chair on which you’re sitting?

As far as I know, no.

Can the thought: “this is a chair.” Know the actual chair?

No.

Can the image of “a chair” know the actual chair?

No.

I use the world chair but all you know in your direct experience is a sensation.
So, the question is not can thought know a chair but can thought know sensation?

No.

Is the actual sensation you feel right now known by thought or by you?

It is known by me.

Take any thought popping into your mind. And check if any thought can know a sensation.

No, they are only thought and that's all that can be said in this context.

Maybe is the other way around?

No, they are unaware of each other. As far as I know.

Can sensation know thought?

No.

Is this sensation knowing the mental image of a chair?

No.

Is this sensation knowing the concept: Chair?

No.

If not. Then two questions:
What is that which knows?
Who is the one who knows?

I am getting pretty uncertain of what I really know when you give me these questions.
I could say consciousness, but I have never seen a consciousness. So I don't feel I know what it is that knows, but I do feel that I am the one who knows.

//Tom

[Windaway]

Hello Tom,

I am getting pretty uncertain of what I really know when you give me these questions.
I could say consciousness, but I have never seen a consciousness. So I don't feel I know what it is that knows, but I do feel that I am the one who knows.

You will never know through the mind.
You will never see or find consciousness as it is not a "thing" or an "object" to be seen or found.
Just like the eyes can't see itself.

Let's start with: "I am the one who knows"

There is an awareness of thoughts correct?
There is an awareness of perception correct?
There is an awareness of sensation correct?

Does that which sees have the same characteristic of thoughts, perception, or sensation?
Do you have the same characteristic of thoughts, perceptions, or sensations?

Where is this entity that is in control?
Can you find this self that is supposedly at the receiving of information data?

Is there a need for a separate self or an entity for the experience to unfold?

[user]

Good evening David!

There is an awareness of thoughts correct?

Correct.

There is an awareness of perception correct?

Correct.

There is an awareness of sensation correct?

Correct.

Does that which sees have the same characteristic of thoughts, perception, or sensation?
Do you have the same characteristic of thoughts, perceptions, or sensations?

No.

Where is this entity that is in control?

I have not been able to find this entity, will keep looking.

Can you find this self that is supposedly at the receiving of information data?

I haven't found it. I have only concluded it must be here since there is awareness of sense perceptions.

Is there a need for a separate self or an entity for the experience to unfold?

I am not sure how to answer this question. I don't know if there is a need.

//Tom

[user]

I am not sure how to answer this question. I don't know if there is a need.

(In other words, I have to look and see)

[Windaway]

OK, look and ket me know what you find.

[user]

Hi David!

OK, look and ket me know what you find.

I haven't found anything.

Is there a need for a separate self or an entity for the experience to unfold?

I can't seem to answer this question. I still don't know.

//Tom

[Windaway]

Is there a need for a separate self or an entity for the experience to unfold?

I can't seem to answer this question. I still don't know.

Keep looking:

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? There are some. Check your Sensations, particularly in your gut/ solar plexus.

[user]

Good evening David!

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The one where the words "I am" was left out seemed truer. It seemed more aligned with reality, like they were more directly describing what was going on.

2. What is here without labels?

Hearing, seeing, feeling, tasting, smelling, and thinking.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

They just describe experience.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? There are some. Check your Sensations, particularly in your gut/ solar plexus.

The use of the "I am" sometimes gave rise to some uncomfortable sensations in the gut. Tension or stress was also evoked. The second half of the exercise didn't evoke any kind of discomfort, it was more relaxed.

//Tom

[Windaway]

Hello Tom,

The one where the words "I am" was left out seemed truer. It seemed more aligned with reality, like they were more directly describing what was going on.

The use of the "I am" sometimes gave rise to some uncomfortable sensations in the gut. Tension or stress was also evoked. The second half of the exercise didn't evoke any kind of discomfort, it was more relaxed.

Beautiful, so why to live life with that "I am" if it gives rise to uncomfortable sensations?
Why live with that "I am" that doesn't feel true?

Is it possible to live without this "I am" overlapping direct experience?


Try and see what happens.
Let me know ^^

[user]

Good evening David!

Beautiful, so why to live life with that "I am" if it gives rise to uncomfortable sensations?
Why live with that "I am" that doesn't feel true?

Just because of habit and not knowing better or questioning it.

Is it possible to live without this "I am" overlapping direct experience?

Yes, it seems so. The "I am" seems superfluous.

//Tom

[Windaway]

Hello Tom,

Is there a separate self called Tom?

If you look for the I, what is there?

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

Where exactly did you look?

What exactly did you find?

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

[user]

Good morning David!

Is there a separate self called Tom?

I get stuck with this question. And there is hesitation in giving an answer. There is hesitation in answering yes because, in this setting, there is a thought saying that that's not the right answer. There is also hesitation in answering no because I can honestly say that I can't fully deny the existence of this separate self. Even though I, to some extent, can see that it's only thoughts pointing to this separate self, I can't seem to see past it. The sense of being alive and being an entity is too obvious and ingrained, and that there isn't a separate self is very hard to fathom.

If you look for the I, what is there?

When I do this, my attention is directed and focused within the body. As if I am expecting to find myself somewhere inside of it. All I find there are physical sensations and emotions. I try to conclude that I am not the body by asking myself if I am those sensations and emotions. No answers come up. I can see that there is a thought that the body is not just a body, it is also Tom. I can see that this is a superfluous label, a very sticky one.
When I try to find the one who is aware, I fail. I can, however, assure that I am aware and that experience is experienced.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?

What came up was a thought in opposition to there not being a witness or experiencer, as witnessing obviously is happening. I continue by questioning myself, "Is there not a witness?" and directs my attention to DE to see what I find. Whether or not there is a witness is hard to tell, but the fact that witnessing DE is happening is hard to look past.

Where exactly did you look?

Mostly into the visual field and into sensations/emotions of the body, and the mental field when the thoughts came up.

What exactly did you find?

I think that's been answered above already.

//Tom