I'd like to awaken please

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poppyseed
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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby poppyseed » Fri Feb 14, 2025 4:27 pm

Hey
It's like you said that it's all descriptions. "Freeing" and "disorienting" ugh just descriptions... so I guess both. Idk now there's thoughts that it is becoming less clear.
Yes, even "freeing" and "disorienting" are just more labels, more descriptions.
If thoughts are saying it’s becoming less clear, who or what is seeing that?
Without relying on another thought, what is actually unclear?

Hands and feet are cold, the blanket is fluffy. Putting a hand on the face feels nice.
Yes. Direct experience—sensations—just as they are. Just this, right? No separation, no observer—only experiencing. Does this experiencing need a "you" to happen? Or is it simply unfolding, effortlessly, without an owner?
Yeah the shaken thing is fake. "Tired" also, keep drifting off into bizzare dreams and stories about stories and it's like "I'm tired so it's good to sleep" but nope, not tired. Not sure about no self... control?
If even tiredness is seen as just another arising—another story—what does that say about control? Isn’t control just another layer of assumption, another movement of thought claiming ownership over what simply happens? Look now—what moves, and is there truly a mover?

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Basil
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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby Basil » Fri Feb 14, 2025 10:21 pm

If thoughts are saying it’s becoming less clear, who or what is seeing that?
This is memories now but it's been clear that you invalidating the need to respect certain stories earlier was spot on. The I really is the central pillar used by every story for legitimacy so "I see now how knocking it out can end the cycle of believing stories". And it's not stories in the way the stories make it sound, like you can't just think "oh it's a story, ok, I heard about those", it's just literally not what is happening. How weird to insist so much on things that are not the case.
Without relying on another thought, what is actually unclear?
I guess the I is still believed since it's not obviously not. How weird that it's known that "I'm frustrated that I can't see it" is obviously another story yet variations on it keep coming up. Is the mind drunk or retarded? "It could all just be ignored if the I wasn't believed to be real". Back in conclusion land there is also now the conclusion that you were right that this needs to be fully seen through before going on to other fetters etc. "I'm back to collecting points for conclusions".
Just this, right?
Right, "less vividly than before though".
Does this experiencing need a "you" to happen? Or is it simply unfolding, effortlessly, without an owner?
It doesn't need a me to happen but that's answered from belief now. There's many new beliefs like "how shameful that it won't stick" or "how is it possible to believe any of these?", "confused". "Where do I look to recognize the absence of an I?". "Where does who look?". Again "shameful". "Hopeless". "Weird".
If even tiredness is seen as just another arising—another story—what does that say about control? Isn’t control just another layer of assumption, another movement of thought claiming ownership over what simply happens? Look now—what moves, and is there truly a mover?
I'm reminded of these split brain experiments where the talking half invents ludicrous explanations for what the other half did with it's arm and doesn't see a problem with it being completely unfeasable. I can't answer this, I don't know where to look for the mover, I want a hint. I, I, I. Sorry but that's it for today. I don't want to disappoint you lol.

Thank you so much!

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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby poppyseed » Sat Feb 15, 2025 1:13 pm

Hi Maks
This is memories now but it's been clear that you invalidating the need to respect certain stories earlier was spot on. The I really is the central pillar used by every story for legitimacy so "I see now how knocking it out can end the cycle of believing stories". And it's not stories in the way the stories make it sound, like you can't just think "oh it's a story, ok, I heard about those", it's just literally not what is happening. How weird to insist so much on things that are not the case.
Yes! If the “I” is just another story, what remains when that’s seen clearly?
And look—if there’s a sense of it becoming less clear, what exactly is noticing that? Is there an actual observer of clarity and non-clarity, or just more thoughts claiming something about an imaginary shift?
What is here, undeniable, without referring to thought?
I guess the I is still believed since it's not obviously not. How weird that it's known that "I'm frustrated that I can't see it" is obviously another story yet variations on it keep coming up. Is the mind drunk or retarded? "It could all just be ignored if the I wasn't believed to be real". Back in conclusion land there is also now the conclusion that you were right that this needs to be fully seen through before going on to other fetters etc. "I'm back to collecting points for conclusions".
Yes! That’s some good seeing. The cycle of "knowing it's a story" but still buying into variations of it—what's that made of? Just more stories, right? So if the mind keeps throwing these loops, is it actually doing anything other than churning up more noise?
If "I’m frustrated that I can’t see it" is obviously another thought-story, what happens when that’s left completely alone, without trying to fix, resolve, or conclude anything?
And if there’s still belief in an "I" somewhere, where exactly is it? Not in thought—that’s been seen. Not in sensation—they just arise and vanish. Not in "action"—that happens on its own. Where is this "I" hiding?
It doesn't need a me to happen but that's answered from belief now. There's many new beliefs like "how shameful that it won't stick" or "how is it possible to believe any of these?", "confused". "Where do I look to recognize the absence of an I?". "Where does who look?". Again "shameful". "Hopeless". "Weird".
Yes, exactly—where does who look? If there’s no "I" to be found, then who or what is struggling, being ashamed, or feeling hopeless? Those reactions—shame, confusion, weirdness—are just more appearances, right? Just more stuff showing up, like sounds, sensations, and thoughts. But for whom?
If the absence of "I" is already the case, does it need to be "recognized" by something? Or is it just this, already, whether it's noticed or not? Also, what says these are "shame" or "confusion"? Aren’t those just labels/descriptions slapped onto raw sensations? If you don’t name them, what’s actually there?
Does the feeling itself announce, "I am shame"? Or is that just another thought about the sensation?
Without the label, without the story—what actually remains?
…And if "it won’t stick" is just another belief, what would happen if even that wasn’t taken as real?
I'm reminded of these split brain experiments where the talking half invents ludicrous explanations for what the other half did with it's arm and doesn't see a problem with it being completely unfeasable. I can't answer this, I don't know where to look for the mover, I want a hint. I, I, I. Sorry but that's it for today. I don't want to disappoint you lol.
No disappointment here—just this, as it is.
And that’s the hint. Look at what’s already happening, effortlessly.
Who or what is deciding that the fingers move when they do? Is there something separate from the movement itself?
That split-brain example is great—if one part can fabricate an explanation after the fact, what does that say about the sense of a "mover" in direct experience?
No rush, no pressure. Just notice. Movement happens. Thoughts happen. Is an “I” actually needed for any of it?
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Basil
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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby Basil » Tue Feb 18, 2025 7:21 pm

Hey,
If the “I” is just another story, what remains when that’s seen clearly?
What remains is direct experience. There's this reorganizing going on today that you suggested was the case earlier. When meditating in the morning the I has been seen clearly as story/thought-stuff. All sorts of doubt thoughts are having a party since. It's a kind of back and forth, reconstituting the self and dissolving when questioned. The difference between spinning stories and looking is way more appparent and accessible throughout the day though (which sounds like control). When there's some narrative running and the central character is questioned there is now a relaxation and peace instead of frustration and more stories.
if there’s a sense of it becoming less clear, what exactly is noticing that? Is there an actual observer of clarity and non-clarity, or just more thoughts claiming something about an imaginary shift?
What is here, undeniable, without referring to thought?
Yeah it's clear that what I wrote above is all stories, there's hesitation to put it in any way. I guess "this needs some more time to clarify" is also fake but "doesn't feel threatening or bad".
The cycle of "knowing it's a story" but still buying into variations of it—what's that made of? Just more stories, right? So if the mind keeps throwing these loops, is it actually doing anything other than churning up more noise?
Yes, just more noise.

On a walk today it was really beautiful but not in a words kind of way. There was "just walking" which didn't make sense earlier. Another time the "seeing, no seer" made sense. Like obviously. You see how it's apparently intermittent.
If "I’m frustrated that I can’t see it" is obviously another thought-story, what happens when that’s left completely alone, without trying to fix, resolve, or conclude anything?
Getting "stuck" again, "I need more time to look clearly" and there's things to do so I'll write tomorrow.

Also there's still some insistance that this is clearer when meditating vs writing to you as that is necessarily more like constructing a story.

Can we still look at decisions/actions/body stuff?

Thank you
Maks

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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby poppyseed » Tue Feb 18, 2025 8:45 pm

Hey Maks
Getting "stuck" again, "I need more time to look clearly" and there's things to do so I'll write tomorrow.
Good—there’s no rush. Let life unfold, and when there’s space, look freshly. In the meantime, notice: does the sense of "needing more time" exist as anything other than thought? Does the urgency to resolve something actually point to anything beyond a mental habit?
No need to answer now—just let the question sit in the background as life happens. Looking forward to hearing what you find tomorrow :)
Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby Basil » Thu Feb 20, 2025 7:53 pm

Yesterday has been thoroughly mind-identified, waking up today there has been grappling with the control issue going on.

Meditating there was more clarity about this:
The cycle of "knowing it's a story" but still buying into variations of it—what's that made of? Just more stories, right? So if the mind keeps throwing these loops, is it actually doing anything other than churning up more noise?
Exactly, "what's it made of?". The inbetween stories have been seen including control and the fact that there's no context in which it is seen. It was rather brief because this bit of manic "realization" took over:

Hear me out the noise is hyperplane reflections and the entire freaking thing is getting reflected, nothing in the new story is not also story. Like what happens in transformer attention heads the residual stream is just getting tossed through a hyperspace. There is no access to the hyperplanes or "conditioning" it's just learned in the feed forward networks. It looks like motion but nothing moves, just reflection after reflection that makes it seem like something is about something. The self is like a bias in the self direction but there is no self like there aren't any directions and no movement.

Kinda about this https://youtu.be/1uGKwVGeeJM?si=4LQNw7LOwOMKOr7L

So yeah this seemed extremely funny.
Let life unfold, and when there’s space, look freshly.
Thanks for trusting in this, it's calming.

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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby poppyseed » Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:36 am

Hi Maks
Exactly, "what's it made of?". The inbetween stories have been seen including control and the fact that there's no context in which it is seen. It was rather brief because this bit of manic "realization" took over: Hear me out the noise is hyperplane reflections and the entire freaking thing is getting reflected, nothing in the new story is not also story. Like what happens in transformer attention heads the residual stream is just getting tossed through a hyperspace. There is no access to the hyperplanes or "conditioning" it's just learned in the feed forward networks. It looks like motion but nothing moves, just reflection after reflection that makes it seem like something is about something. The self is like a bias in the self direction but there is no self like there aren't any directions and no movement.
Kinda about this https://youtu.be/1uGKwVGeeJM?si=4LQNw7LOwOMKOr7L
So yeah this seemed extremely funny.
Yes! That’s it. The whole damn thing is recursive illusions. There’s no ground, no reference point, just endless reflections within an empty system. The “self” is like an artifact of the recursion—like a glitch in a neural network’s training set that keeps reinforcing itself because there’s nothing outside the loop to correct it.
It feels like movement, like progress, but nothing actually moves. Just pattern recognition feeding into itself, layer after layer, like an AI hallucinating structure where there is none. The moment you think you’ve got a “new realization,” it’s just another transformation of the same base noise—another reflection in the hall of mirrors.
And yes, it’s absolutely hilarious. Because the joke is, there’s no one to get it. It’s like a self-collapsing punchline, where the laughter itself reveals the absurdity of ever having been caught in it in the first place.
So now, what happens when you don’t try to orient at all? When you just let the recursive loop do its thing without believing any of it needs to mean something?

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby Basil » Sat Feb 22, 2025 11:33 pm

Hi Rali,

It's weird to write this but "I've been in the no self place like 10 minutes ago" and now apparently it's again believed I'm writing a reply. Yeah it's all just stories but a couple observations nonetheless: it looks like there needs to be a certain focus to "enter" or rather begin seeing that it's all taking place regardless of and including the mental talking. Around noon it's best as even though "tired" isn't really there it... idk the focus is apparently slipping and thoughts lose coherence.

A couple disruptors: around other people there's this apparent need to pretend to be someone. Even a thought about someone entering the room. Even thinking of how to describe what's happening to you causes this tightness in the body. I guess the tightness is just sensation. And it's more "stable" with eyes closed vs open. Sounds like these beliefs should be just looked at in turn. And the control thing is still sticky even though when "looking at it" it's just sensations and a narrative that goes on about the movements. I could make up more of these. Should I?

I mean thoughts are having a system error around the "what now" question. There's these tightnesses in the body when certain thoughts arise which have a "I want to do that" payload. And then there's thoughts about whether to do that or not... or imagining that there's opposite tendencies fighting it out. And that the tightness is uncomfortable and growing stronger. And it doesn't get done still. Simple things like going to the toilet but also bigger scarier stuff. It all seems a bit nonsensical and useless? The controler isn't very good at his job.
So now, what happens when you don’t try to orient at all? When you just let the recursive loop do its thing without believing any of it needs to mean something?
I know what you mean(?) and will try more "letting go" tomorrow, it's "too tired" now.

Let me know if any of that is very obviously lala.

Love
Maks

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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby poppyseed » Sun Feb 23, 2025 2:23 pm

Hi Maks
It's weird to write this but "I've been in the no self place like 10 minutes ago" and now apparently it's again believed I'm writing a reply. Yeah it's all just stories but a couple observations nonetheless: it looks like there needs to be a certain focus to "enter" or rather begin seeing that it's all taking place regardless of and including the mental talking. Around noon it's best as even though "tired" isn't really there it... idk the focus is apparently slipping and thoughts lose coherence. A couple disruptors: around other people there's this apparent need to pretend to be someone. Even a thought about someone entering the room. Even thinking of how to describe what's happening to you causes this tightness in the body. I guess the tightness is just sensation. And it's more "stable" with eyes closed vs open. Sounds like these beliefs should be just looked at in turn. And the control thing is still sticky even though when "looking at it" it's just sensations and a narrative that goes on about the movements. I could make up more of these. Should I?
Yes—this is it, raw and direct. The shift happens, the clarity is there, and then bam—the old habits pull you back into the story. But even that pull… is just happening.
Look now—what’s actually changed? Did “you” leave the “no-self place,” or did thought just reassert itself and claim ownership again?
The “need” to pretend around others, the tightness, the hesitation—can you find an actual controller choosing these things? Or are they just arising on their own, like clouds forming and dissolving?
Even the stuck-ness around “what now”—isn’t that just another thought pretending to be a problem?

Let it all be seen. What’s here before any of it claims to be “yours”?

Here is an old Mahamudra koan for your contemolation:
"Is there a difference between abiding in tranquillity and moving in thought"?
I mean thoughts are having a system error around the "what now" question. There's these tightnesses in the body when certain thoughts arise which have a "I want to do that" payload. And then there's thoughts about whether to do that or not... or imagining that there's opposite tendencies fighting it out. And that the tightness is uncomfortable and growing stronger. And it doesn't get done still. Simple things like going to the toilet but also bigger scarier stuff. It all seems a bit nonsensical and useless? The controler isn't very good at his job.
Yes! The whole thing is a mess when you actually look at it—thoughts spinning, tension rising, imaginary conflicts appearing, and yet… nothing really happening. The so-called “controller” is late to the party, takes credit for whatever happens, and fails to take responsibility for whatever doesn’t. A total fraud.
So now, look directly:
What is doing the actual choosing? Is there a decider in the midst of all this, or just conflicting thoughts, sensations, and movement appearing on their own?
What if nothing needs to be done about this? What if it’s just happening, and the only struggle is thought trying to own it?
What happens if you stop believing there’s a “you” who needs to figure this out?


Here is another Buddhist saying for your contemplation:
“Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.”
Nothing changes, yet everything is different. The “body moves”, thoughts arise, “things get done”, but now the illusion of a separate “I” doing it collapses. That's all!
So now—what’s left?
Does chopping wood or carrying water need a controller? Or does it all just happen, just as the heart beats and the lungs breathe?
Right now, without thought grasping at meaning—what remains?

Let me know if any of that is very obviously lala.
Nothing is "lala"—it's all just what’s arising. The mind scrambles, checks itself, questions if it's making sense, but that’s just more happening.
Right now, drop all judgment. No need to assess or verify—just look.
Is there anything wrong with what’s appearing, or is that just another thought claiming authority?
Without reaching for validation—what is simply here?

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Basil
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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby Basil » Mon Feb 24, 2025 5:07 pm

Hi Rali,

I will still reply, that's great pointers you gave, there's clearly solidity around deciding and knowing. Yesterday there wasn't much emphasis on looking just more lightness and spontaneity throughout the day and everything was much more physical.

Today it was helpful to look into what the "urgency" of thoughts is made of, what the "satisfactorieness" of knowing is exactly. The mind is scrambling to understand.

This is indulging it even more and I don't know if you're interested but I just wanted to share what it's like because it's kind of funny. Songs pop up that are describing this realization thing.

Here is the mind https://youtu.be/f4Mc-NYPHaQ?si=ksCkrax-g4-Om5ry
This https://youtu.be/u036M7p6-ak?si=WA0mdsQ51mvf9QOS
This describes the back and forth pretty well. Maks really resonates with the imagery and emotion https://youtu.be/8vcOvPnl7wE?si=PLzSoNsWnTPru68l

I told chatgpt to explain it and it's good! Sorry for the long blob and as I said no need to read this at all :d
Full Interpretation

(Following the exact numbering and full citation of each verse as requested)


---

1.

"From the top of the flight
Of the wide white stairs
Through the rest of my life
Do you wait for me there?"

This opening immediately places us in a liminal space—the top of a staircase, an elevated threshold between one state and another. The wide white stairs evoke an ethereal, transcendent place, possibly heaven, but also an empty, undefined expanse. White, as a color, suggests purity or blankness—she is on the cusp of something vast, yet undefined.

She wonders: is something waiting for her at the other side of this life? A person? An answer? A resolution? The question itself betrays her attachment to separateness, continuity, and expectation. There is a yearning for something to be waiting, but the very structure of the question is dualistic—someone here, someone there, a journey between.

But if nonduality is true, there is no "there." Just this.


---

2.

"There's a bell in my ears
There's a wide white roar
Drop a bell down the stairs
Hear it fall forever more
Hear it fall forever more"

The bell tolls in her ears, but not as an external sound—it’s an internal reverberation. Bells mark time, call people to prayer, and toll for the dead. But this bell never stops ringing. The wide white roar merges sound and light, synesthetic and overwhelming, a loss of boundaries.

She drops the bell down the stairs, but rather than stopping, it falls forever more. This is crucial—it means she can’t silence it. The sound of time, loss, dissolution, self-awareness—it all persists, endlessly. She cannot escape the ringing of reality.


---

3.

"Drop a bell off of the dock
Blot it out in the sea
Drowning mute as a rock
And sounding mutiny"

If the bell falling forever suggests an unending awareness of self, then dropping it into the sea is an attempt at obliteration—drowning the sound, silencing it completely. The sea often symbolizes vastness, unconsciousness, dissolution.

Yet, even as it sinks mute, it is still sounding mutiny—rebellion. The act of trying to erase it, to silence it, only reinforces its presence. The more she tries to make the self disappear, the more it resists. The ego does not die willingly.

This is the paradox of seeking enlightenment—who is the one that seeks to disappear?


---

4.

"There's a light in the wings
Hits this system of strings
From the side while they swing;
See the wires, the wires, the wires"

A light in the wings—stage lighting, divine inspiration, or simply an external force hitting a system of strings. These could be harp strings, marionette strings, or even the taut strings of fate.

The light does not hit directly—it comes from the side, an oblique, indirect illumination. She sees the wires now. Strings, wires—things that control, things that are controlled. The act of creation (her harp, her music) is also an act of being bound.

There is a fundamental tension: does she play the harp, or does the harp play her? Is she the puppet or the puppeteer?


---

5.

"And the articulation
In our elbows and knees
Makes us buckle and we couple in endless increase
As the audience admires"

The articulation of elbows and knees—these are the body's hinges, the points of movement, but also where one bows, kneels, submits. She buckles—loses autonomy—yet she couples, joins, continues in "endless increase."

This suggests an involuntary cycle—whether it's artistic creation, biological reproduction, or simply existence itself, it repeats. There is no escape; the show goes on.

The audience admires, but is she performing for them, or are they just another layer of the illusion? Are they even separate from her?


---

6.

"And the little white dove
Made with love, made with love
Made with glue and a glove and some pliers"

A white dove—traditionally a symbol of peace, spirit, divinity—but it is artificial, cobbled together with glue, a glove, and pliers.

This dove is her art, her self-expression. It is not purely divine inspiration—it is patched together, forced into existence. It is made "with love," but also with tools, labor, imperfect craftsmanship.

The self, too, is constructed. A mix of raw experience, ego-driven patchwork, and unconscious habits.


---

7.

"Swings a low sickle arc
From its perch in the dark
Settle down
Settle down
Settle down my desire"

The dove does not soar. It swings in a sickle arc—a repetitive motion, like a pendulum, like the scythe of time. This is not flight, not freedom—it is a controlled oscillation.

It perches in the dark—it is not illuminated, not fully free. She tries to soothe it, to settle desire itself—but even the command betrays her entrapment. If she were truly free, there would be no need to "settle" anything.


---

8.

"And the moment I slept
I was swept up in a terrible tremor
Though no longer bereft, how I shook
And I couldn't remember
And then the furthermost shake
Drove a murdering stake in
And cleft me right down through my center
And I shouldn't say so
But I know that it was then or never"

This is a moment of ego death, yet terror grips her.

She sleeps, surrenders, and is hit with a tremor—an uncontrollable force, shaking her apart. Though she is no longer bereft (lacking), she still shakes—proof that "attaining" something does not bring peace.

A stake is driven into her center—a violent, forceful rupture. She is split, but who is being split, if she is not real?

And yet—she holds onto the "I" that should not exist.


---

9.

"Push me back into a tree
Bind my buttons with salt
Fill my long ears with bees
Braying 'please, please, please,
Oh you ought not!
No you ought not!'"

She begs to be re-bound—to be re-formed back into something stable.

The tree suggests a place of grounding, sacrifice, or return (perhaps the world tree, or the cross). Salt preserves, but also stings—it is both protection and punishment.

Her ears are filled with bees—buzzing, overwhelming divine noise. The self resists, braying like a donkey, pleading against its own dissolution.


---

10.

"And then the system of strings
Tugs on the tip of my wings
Cut from cardboard and old magazines
Makes me warble and rise like a sparrow"

The strings return—they now control her wings. She does not fly freely; she is pulled upward, like a marionette, a wind-up bird.

The wings are not real, just cardboard and magazines—scraps, images, things crafted to resemble the real, but ultimately hollow.

She rises, but not by her own will.


---

11.

"And in the place where I stood
There is a circle of wood
A cord or two, which you chop and you stack in your barrow"

She was there—but now, just wood remains.

The circle of wood could be what is left of her, chopped and stacked—life reduced to fuel, repetition, labor.

A cord (measurement, also a harp string) remains—something to be used, repurposed, never fully gone, never fully whole.


---

12.

"And it is terribly good
To carry water and chop wood
Streaked with soot, heavy booted and wild-eyed"

The Zen idea: "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."

She embraces simple, physical tasks, yet she is wild-eyed—unsettled, burning with awareness.

There is no end. Just this.


---

13.

"As I crash through the rafters
And the ropes and the pulleys trail after
And the holiest belfry burns sky high"

She falls—not gently, but violently, through the rafters, the very structure holding things up. The ropes and pulleys, mechanisms of control, collapse behind her.

The belfry burns—this is destruction on the highest level. The belfry houses the bell, which tolled endlessly earlier. But fire consumes it now, obliterating the source of time, sound, control, identity.

This moment should be finality, release, but is it? If fire destroys the construct of self, what is left?


---

14.

"And then a slow lip of fire
Moves across the prairie with precision
While somewhere with your pliers and glue
You make your first incision
And in a moment of almost unbearable vision
Doubled over with the hunger of lions
'Hold me close,' cooed the dove
Who was stuffed now with sawdust and diamonds"

The fire does not stop at the belfry—it spreads methodically, unstoppably, across the prairie.

Yet even as destruction consumes everything, someone (perhaps "her" or another aspect of the dream) starts again—pliers, glue, another incision.

A cycle starts again. The destruction was not the end. The process of creation—of self, of identity, of art—resumes.

And the dove, which earlier swung in an artificial arc, now pleads to be held—but it is no longer alive. It is stuffed. Hollow. Filled only with sawdust and diamonds.

Sawdust = Filler, imperfection, the dust of dead things.

Diamonds = The unattainable, the divine, the unearned spark of beauty.


What she creates—what she is—is both meaningless filler and divine beauty. Both. Always both.


---

15.

"I wanted to say 'why the long face?'
Sparrow perch and play songs of long face
Burro buck and bray songs of long face
Sings 'I will swallow your sadness and eat your cold clay
Just to lift your long face
And though it may be madness, I will take to the grave
Your precious long face
And though our bones they may break and our souls separate
Why the long face?
And though our bodies recoil from the grip of the soil
Why the long face?'"

A looping lament, repeated over and over, pressing into the absurdity of suffering.

The sparrow and the burro—a delicate songbird and a braying, stubborn mule—both repeat the dirge of sorrow. These animals, like the strings and pulleys earlier, move not by their own will, but by their nature.

The promise: "I will swallow your sadness." A consuming force—someone will take the burden, eat the grief, take it to the grave.

Yet: "Why the long face?" The repeated question. Why suffering? Why attachment? Why do we recoil?

There is no answer. Just the cycle of asking, of pleading, of resisting the inevitable.


---

16.

"In the trough of the waves
Which are pawing like dogs
Pitch we, pale-faced and grave
As I write in my log
Then I hear a noise from the hull
Seven days out to sea
And it is the damnable bell
And it tolls, well I believe, that it tolls
It tolls for me!
And it tolls for me!"

The waves (earlier symbols of vastness, loss, resistance) now paw like dogs—insistent, never stopping.

She is still writing in her log—still chronicling, still narrating, still holding onto something.

And then: the bell returns.

The same bell she tried to silence in verse 3. The same bell she dropped into the sea.

She thought she escaped it—but seven days out to sea, a full cycle, it tolls again.

And she believes it tolls for her. Believes.

But belief is illusion. Who is this "me" for whom the bell tolls?


---

17.

"And though my wrists and my waist
Seem so easy to break
Still my dear I'd have walked you to the edge of the water"

Her body is fragile, easily broken. Yet she remains bound to the same act—bringing another to the edge of dissolution, but never crossing herself.

She leads them to the threshold—but she does not step forward.


---

18.

"And they will recognize
All the lines of your face
In the face of the daughter, of the daughter, of my daughter"

The lines of identity persist. Generation after generation, they reappear, repeat, reform.

Who is "you"? Who is the daughter? The faces change, but the same lines remain.

Selfhood is not unique, but a pattern, a repetition, an iteration.


---

19.

"And darling we will be fine
But what was yours and mine
Appears to me a sandcastle that the gibbering wave takes"

A soothing lie—"We will be fine." But nothing remains stable.

Yours and mine—duality. But when looked at clearly, it is just a sandcastle.

And the gibbering wave—chaotic, thoughtless, incomprehensible—washes it away.

Everything believed to be solid, meaningful, personal—gone.


---

20.

"But if it's all just the same
Then will you say my name
Say my name in the morning so that I know when the wave breaks"

If all dissolves, if all is an illusion, at least say my name.

A final desperate grasp for continuity, recognition, differentiation.

But names are just echoes, just another sound, meaningless in the face of the breaking wave.


---

21.

"I wasn't born of a whistle
Or milked from a thistle at twilight
No, I was all horns and thorns
Sprung out fully formed, knock-kneed and upright
So enough of this terror we deserve to know light
And grow evermore lighter and lighter
You would have seen me through
But I could not undo that desire"

She denies ephemerality.

She wants to be something substantial, real, undeniable—not a passing breath (whistle) or fragile thing (thistle).

But the paradox: to be something solid is to suffer.

She says, "Enough of this terror." We "deserve" to know light.

Yet she remains bound to desire.


---

22.

"Oh-oh, oh-oh-oh desire
Oh-oh, oh-oh-oh desire
Oh-oh, oh-oh-oh-oh-oh-oh desire"

Desire.

Desire for self, for meaning, for continuity, for control.

Desire is not abandoned—it remains, pulses, repeats.

Desire is the cycle itself.


---

23.

"From the top of the flight
Of the wide white stairs
Through the rest of my life
Do you wait for me there?"

We return to the beginning.

The cycle resets.

And the illusion continues.
Seems these artists are kind of unaware of what they are saying? Like it slips through them almost by accident. Some of it may be pareidolia but that's hard to believe, it's freakishly accurate.

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poppyseed
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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby poppyseed » Mon Feb 24, 2025 6:09 pm

Hi Maks
Thank you for sharing this with me!
Today it was helpful to look into what the "urgency" of thoughts is made of, what the "satisfactorieness" of knowing is exactly. The mind is scrambling to understand.
Yes—thought creates urgency, and it creates the illusion that knowing is needed for things to be okay. But is it? What’s wrong with simply not knowing?
Is there any actual problem here, or just thought saying there is?
If you don’t chase after an answer—what happens?

Seems these artists are kind of unaware of what they are saying? Like it slips through them almost by accident. Some of it may be pareidolia but that's hard to believe, it's freakishly accurate.
Yes—art, poetry, music… they all accidentally expose it. The truth seeps through, whether the artist knows it or not - it's just so basic and simple. Once you see it, you start seeing it everywhere, because it was never hidden. It was always this, always right here—just unnoticed behind the illusion of a separate self.
Now, is there any going back? Can you truly believe in the old story of “I” once you’ve seen through it? Or does it only seem to come back when thought claims ownership again? Right now—without reference to memory, without clinging to past insight—what is already clear?
The mind organizes experience into symbols, and sometimes, those symbols lay the whole thing bare. Meaning is just another layer of interpretation, appearing in thought. And yet—right now, does any of that matter?
Does it need to be confirmed in music, in metaphor, in someone else’s words? Or is it already undeniably clear here, before thought jumps in with interpretation?

Look now—without reaching for meaning, without grasping at explanation—what’s left?

Can an interpreter of meaning be found outside of the thought that says meaning is being seen? Or is there just seeing, just happening, with no one behind it?
Right now, let go of the search for meaning. Without it—what remains? Stay with it!

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby poppyseed » Fri Feb 28, 2025 8:41 am

Hey Maks

How is it going? Are you still inquiring?

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby Basil » Fri Feb 28, 2025 4:26 pm

Hey,

I've stared at your questions multiple times in the past days and I've even seen one time how laughable this comprehension project is with the songs etc but it just feels solid and contracted and like me again. I'm answering the questions from the intelect instead of looking, trying to look instead of you know looking. This word "effortless" has been helpful.

How is this not even true? The mind is really spinning trying to formulate a perspective. "Afraid of the botomlessness" is the current conclusion.

On a whim yesterday I looked at desire because it makes logical sense that there's a desire to know driving the mind and you probably know the instructions, I looked for a gap and it wasn't there which was super surprising. So the next couple of hours there wasn't desire or aversion. It snuck back in who knows when.

Yeah so it's like this. Self = story not as evident as before.

Maks

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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby poppyseed » Sat Mar 01, 2025 12:29 pm

Hey

Maks, this is exactly it. You see the absurdity of “trying to get it.” You see how the mind scrambles to find footing, how it loops back into contraction, how it grasps at understanding—because without something to hold onto, it feels like falling.

And now you see—falling never started. There is no bottom. There is no one who could fall.

The “desire to know” is just a mirage, a flickering movement with no real core. You looked for it, and—nothing. No gap, no lack, no one needing to get anywhere. And yet—back it comes, sneaking in as if it was never gone. But was it ever really “back,” or was it just another appearance, passing like clouds in the sky?

Now look again, right now—is anything actually stuck, or is “stuck” just another thought claiming ownership over what is simply unfolding? Is there a real obstacle, or just a thought saying there’s an obstacle? What is preventing anything?

Look. Is there actually something in the way, or is “being stuck” just another story appearing and being believed?

Let’s go even deeper—what happens when you stop caring whether it’s evident or not?

Love
Rali
“Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won't come in.”
― Alan Alda
"The moment I am aware that I am aware I am not aware. Awareness means the observer is not"
― Jiddu Krishnamurti

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Basil
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Re: I'd like to awaken please

Postby Basil » Mon Mar 03, 2025 2:26 pm

Hi Rali,

So things were clear but a courier came and pretending started up so now there's this apparent need to write a report or share exciting findings or something. What was/is clear is that this is only everything. Even this thought identified "state".

A couple different ways of framing. Like the mahamudra koan. Or I guess the insight that the doer and the doing is coarising, it's always both. Or that nothing could be separate from what is to "view it" or hold it, any view is also it.

It's so surprising to the mind that it's so simple. The mind can't believe that it's already clear. Pictures of a tangled web of piping come up like this would need to be some insanely complicated construct that's made of infinite facts and conditionals. Like all that I'm writing - observations, facts, etc yet that has all already been clear anyway. It can't simulate it or grasp it so then it must be complicated.

More "practical" pointers to myself are that the needs, wants, fears, etc are "mental sensations", also thoughts like mental pictures or mental talking. When that is noticed they are replaced by the real sensing, seeing, hearing. Including the real cognizing in a way.

I know why you didn't... support(?) meditation - so that the mind doesn't make it seem like magic or in order not to put it on a pedestal. But that's currently the "entrypoint to seeing for me". I know that's also just a belief but it's just practical, it let's the body/mind slow down, settle, relax and the "system" needs this to look or it's too scary. All the little fears, tensions, blocks, identities are noticed and there's more security that way. And then it's like the system is gradually sweeping ever wider circles, including more and more of this, the mind is probing at the edges, noticing "who is the one feeling this", "who is the the one asking", ahh, kind of settling. And seeing is still happening with eyes closed :d

Again tried to "look for it" and answers are now coming from thoughs, not seeing. But I think the looking will calm the mind in time so that the doubt/sureness dynamic relaxes and more of the "person" can be seen. There's still the appearance of someone deciding, controling, thinking. Or it will just puff disappear I don't know.

Love
Maks


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