The Gate

How would you define the difference between delusion and illusion?

I guess I would describe delusion as lying to yourself or tricking yourself into believing something.
Illusion would be being tricked into believing something.

So in this case I would understand it as delusion is viewing the thoughts/self as real and in charge, and illusion would be seeing that the thoughts/self are trying to be seen as real and in charge

Evening Solstice,

So in this case I would understand it as delusion is viewing the thoughts/self as real and in charge, and illusion would be seeing that the thoughts/self are trying to be seen as real and in charge

Well put.


Does that make any difference?


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Does that make any difference?

It helps elucidate the stage 'I' am at. Basically I 'know' that I am not the thoughts/self, but it has to be continually seen through intentionally until it becomes the default experience.

Morning Solstice,

it has to be continually seen through intentionally until it becomes the default experience.

Have there been any benefits so far along the journey?

Has there been a glimpse or better described as a deeper intellectual understanding?

Remember, there are no right answers, just the answers that are true for you right now.


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PS: -

it has to be continually seen through intentionally until it becomes the default experience.

Who's doing the seeing?


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Have there been any benefits so far along the journey?

Less clinging to emotions, but also more intense feeling of negative emotions like sadness which to the me that started would sound like a bad change but it let me see they are no different to positive emotions and should be felt (I think previously I was unknowingly repressing these emotions)
More ability to notice becoming lost in thought and redirect attention

Has there been a glimpse or better described as a deeper intellectual understanding?

Yes there have been glimpses of deeper understanding, moments where the intellectually understood was experientially real

Who's doing the seeing?

The initial answer is still I am doing the seeing but upon inquiry this is seen to be a thought and thus seeing/awareness must be doing the seeing or seeing just is?

Morning Solstice,

Referring to the whole of your last post -

What if this is it right now, would that be enough?

Look at any assumptions you make in answering that question?

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What if this is it right now, would that be enough?

Look at any assumptions you make in answering that question?

I guess I feel like I still get lost in thought too much and clinging to suffering. And still feel the I sense most of the time. Are these perhaps things I would need to work on in other ways? (shadow work/some sort of therapy spring to mind)
As for would this be enough, it’s not really up to me if this is all it is, is it?

Assumptions would be that a liberated being would not get lost in thought as often as I do, and would see through the sense of self automatically most of the time or the sense of no self would be fully integrated into daily life

Hello Solstice,

I like this quote (don't know where it comes from) -

“If I told you the punch line without first telling you the joke would you laugh?
So, if I told you the conclusion without presenting any of the evidence would you believe me?”

Therapy may well help you in any area you where you may need it.
The process here, is not therapy, it's getting to a place where things are seen as they are, which may or may not improve anything you're seeking to improve.


Another quote I have no attribution for -

We see the world as we are, not how it is, or worse how we want it to be.

it’s not really up to me if this is all it is, is it?

What is up to you?


❤️🖖

PS:-

There are 3 zoom meetings available that may help, send a message to the group leader to confirm if there's space and when the next meeting will be -


viewforum.php?f=49


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“If I told you the punch line without first telling you the joke would you laugh?
So, if I told you the conclusion without presenting any of the evidence would you believe me?”

It feels as though I know the joke but I do not get it. Or perhaps I still do not have enough evidence I am unsure. It still feels like there is more, what I have 'learned' still seems to be mostly intellectual.

We see the world as we are, not how it is, or worse how we want it to be.

I have mostly always seen the world as beautiful, although there are obviously things within it which are not, and which make me feel sadness to think about. Not sure how this relates to how I am, I guess I think I am mostly good however there are parts that I am unhappy with.

What is up to you?

I am not really sure, it still feels like I am in charge of my life, like I have agency.


I will look into those meetings and try to make time to attend

Afternoon Solstice,

It still feels like there is more,

There are the sensations experienced, including the thoughts, what more is there?

I have mostly always seen the world as beautiful, although there are obviously things within it which are not,

Who decides and how is it decided what is beautiful or not?

I guess I think I am mostly good however there are parts that I am unhappy with

Can you do anything about the good and bad parts and what's the criteria for picking good and bad?
Are there average bits or slightly better or worse bits?
Is this the self?
If it is the self, who's deciding what's good and bad about the self?

What is up to you?
I am not really sure, it still feels like I am in charge of my life, like I have agency.

You're not sure, yet you have agency?




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Sorry that last post comes across as a bit melodramatic after rereading lol

There are the sensations experienced, including the thoughts, what more is there?

I guess upon looking and seeing that is all it is there is still some attachment to being the observer of these things?

Who decides and how is it decided what is beautiful or not?

It is just thoughts, I guess I was aligning with these more than I realised

Can you do anything about the good and bad parts and what's the criteria for picking good and bad?

It feels as though I can try to change. This process itself feels like part of that attempt to change. Although upon inquiry it is not actually changing just changing how the thoughts are seen/experienced?

Are there average bits or slightly better or worse bits?

Every thought about 'me' seems to have some form of rating on a good to bad scale so in a way yes.

Is this the self?
If it is the self, who's deciding what's good and bad about the self?

I am guessing it is just long recursions of self referential thoughts all based on some core/closely held beliefs, although I am not really sure what these beliefs are and how to let go of this attachment, I would imagine it just has to be continually seen and noted until it falls away?

You're not sure, yet you have agency?

Paradoxical I know lol but that is how it feels
Ignoring that the following is just a thought about my 'self' I figured I would note it for reference:
I am a very over analytical person, I struggle to make decisions without feeling like I have all the information. I get stuck in analytical rabbit holes, trying to find out everything there is to know. It can be useful, for example when purchasing things like technology. But it is is quite detrimental in human problems like relationship issues, as I will choose to not make a choice(because I don't have all the info) out of fear it will be the wrong choice and will close off an option, so instead others end up making choices instead which then leads to annoyance and regret

I hope this is understandable and not too rambly

Morning Solstice,

Yes your last post makes perfect sense and is not too rambly.

Resisting the temptation to go down the rabbit hole with you, basically your last post was all thoughts about thoughts.

Creating a better relationship with thoughts may help - everytime you notice being lost in thought, laugh out loud or smile, the bigger the better.
Once a better relationship exists, some people find it works if they ask their thoughts to leave them alone.
Others just tell their thoughts to fuck off, but you need the relationship first, otherwise this last technique can backfire.

As was once said to me - don't suffer from analysis paralaysis.

If you look back over the exercises you've carried out here - remind me who's in control of your thoughts and action?

(And yes, most of the time I still think I am too 🤣)


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If you look back over the exercises you've carried out here - remind me who's in control of your thoughts and action?

I agree

Creating a better relationship with thoughts may help - everytime you notice being lost in thought, laugh out loud or smile, the bigger the better.
Once a better relationship exists, some people find it works if they ask their thoughts to leave them alone.
Others just tell their thoughts to fuck off, but you need the relationship first, otherwise this last technique can backfire.

I will try this from now on

If you look back over the exercises you've carried out here - remind me who's in control of your thoughts and action?

no one is in control