Looking for a guide

[okjose]

This is why you hear people say that "nothing changes" when the self illusion is seen through.

Yes this seems to make more sense now.

Now that is the question, isn't it... What does control the thought?

Who knows I guess. Maybe a bit like what makes the grass grow?

Can you predict the next thought?

No

Can you stop certain thoughts?

No, impossible because they cannot be predicted.

Even the responses to these questions to try and disprove the above questions arise by themselves. Were they predicted or controlled by something or someone?

No not at all, it’s like it’s automatic.

And is there even an owner for this whole process?

No it’s just things happening.

Look in each sense, is there an "I" in the contractions or the sensations, or imagination?

No when methodically gone through like this it’s clear there’s no “I” in any of these.

If not, how do they together become an "I"? (Maybe don't explain, stay with the looking)

It feel likes they combine and then the thought goes “this is me”. It truth it’s a a mirage. It Can be broken down into parts.

Do you even control the focusing? Is there a focusER?

It’s happening because it’s being asked to look there or focus.
It’s just happening by itself too.

No others can hear or see it, but is there someone seeing or hearing it inside?

This is where there’s the most subtle idea of a me. It’s just assumed that there’s a witnesser, someone receiving the thought or sense. That’s the most subtle me. The assumed one who hears the thought. Who hears it or is it just arsing? It’s just assumed it heard which implies an other. I feel like I know this is the point of separation, this assumption or added “me”. This receiver. But the illusion is in play.

Or is it simply arising?

It is simply arising.

Is there someone separate from life doing the thinking, seeing, and hearing, or is it all life life'ing like in the stream exercise?

It’s all just part of the same stream of life.

[Bluejay]

Who knows I guess. Maybe a bit like what makes the grass grow?

Yes, it's a mystery.

This is where there’s the most subtle idea of a me. It’s just assumed that there’s a witnesser, someone receiving the thought or sense. That’s the most subtle me. The assumed one who hears the thought. Who hears it or is it just arsing? It’s just assumed it heard which implies an other. I feel like I know this is the point of separation, this assumption or added “me”. This receiver. But the illusion is in play.

For a moment there I thought arsing was some slang I wasn't aware of. (In your sentence: 'Who hears it or is it just arsing?')

Let's look at this subtle idea of a me.

What is the experience of a subtle idea of me? What makes it subtle?

Where is the witness precisely?

Break it down into parts, where is the border between witnesser and witnessed (thought or sense)?

So in certain cases you see there's no "me", what is the difference here?

What is the receiver or witnesser made of? What are the parts required to build it?

During the day, or evening, feel free to pay attention to what is receiving or witnessing experience, thoughts, sensations, sounds, images, and so on.

[okjose]

Hi Henri, I’ve been going over these questions but I’d like more time with them if that’s ok. I’ve been working this weekend and really want some more time on my own to go through them which I’ll have tomorrow morning. I’ll respond tomorrow if that’s ok?

[Bluejay]

That's perfectly fine :)

You are always welcome to take more time with questions.

[okjose]

Thanks :)

[okjose]

For a moment there I thought arsing was some slang I wasn't aware of. (In your sentence: 'Who hears it or is it just arsing?')

Oops haha sorry definitely a typo.

What is the experience of a subtle idea of me? What makes it subtle?

The experience of the one who is listening or hearing the thoughts. The "one" refers to an image of a vague black space and sensation of the "head". It also changes and refers to the image of a so called face along with imagined facial expression and eyes - this is combined with the sensation of a face.
To give some more context and example: I've been using the inner voice thought to see If there's a listener. It seems the inner voice is heard. The experience of that hearer /listener is what's described above - a thought of a face and head or sometimes vague black space (the black space might be a cop out). In reality it seems to be just two thoughts or an inner voice thought and then the thought that a face and head sensation is witnessing that inner voice. Of course it just goes round and round like a dog chasing it's tail when I then have the thought "well what's witnessing all this then". Really there's nothing.

Where is the witness precisely?

It's located where a head and face would be. If it's the inner voice being "heard" then the imagination of the ears hear it. If it's sensation then it's the imagination of a face and pair of eyes looking at it.

Break it down into parts, where is the border between witnesser and witnessed (thought or sense)?

This makes it clearer that the "subtle idea of me" is the image of a face along with facial expression and head (more specifically the eyes and ears but it moves around the head). It's all thought so theres no boundry. But this is such powerful exercise. It one thought that goes to another thought.

So in certain cases you see there's no "me", what is the difference here?

It like there's a more hidden and vulnerable idea of "me" which I think is starting to be seen.

What is the receiver or witnesser made of? What are the parts required to build it?

The parts required are a thought/image of the face and eyes looking around, combined with the sensation.

[Bluejay]

Excellent exploring, Jose!

The experience of the one who is listening or hearing the thoughts. The "one" refers to an image of a vague black space and sensation of the "head". It also changes and refers to the image of a so called face along with imagined facial expression and eyes - this is combined with the sensation of a face.
To give some more context and example: I've been using the inner voice thought to see If there's a listener. It seems the inner voice is heard. The experience of that hearer /listener is what's described above - a thought of a face and head or sometimes vague black space (the black space might be a cop out). In reality it seems to be just two thoughts or an inner voice thought and then the thought that a face and head sensation is witnessing that inner voice. Of course it just goes round and round like a dog chasing it's tail when I then have the thought "well what's witnessing all this then". Really there's nothing.

Yes.

If you go to thoughts, they will keep going round and round.

It's located where a head and face would be. If it's the inner voice being "heard" then the imagination of the ears hear it. If it's sensation then it's the imagination of a face and pair of eyes looking at it.

Head, face, ears, and eyes are images / thoughts, as you already know.

That naturally begs the question: Can images/thoughts hear, feel, or see?

What is there without these images?

Remove all the labels such as inner voice, head, face, ears, eyes.

What is left? Where is the witness? What is the experience of it?

This makes it clearer that the "subtle idea of me" is the image of a face along with facial expression and head (more specifically the eyes and ears but it moves around the head). It's all thought so theres no boundry. But this is such powerful exercise. It one thought that goes to another thought.

Yes, it's just thought, thought, thought.

Where is the thinker of these thoughts?

Where is the one that believes these thoughts?

The parts required are a thought/image of the face and eyes looking around, combined with the sensation.

And in any of these, is there an inherent witness? Or is there simply noticing arising with whatever is arising?

No sensation + witness, but just sensation and noticing of it, both together as one thing, only divided because thought makes it so?

That's why when you look, there are no borders. There is only thought saying "These sensations here are called Fred and Mavis and they are the watchers. And then we have sensations here that are being watched."

Thought slices the pizza and calls each piece separate from the rest :)

[okjose]

That naturally begs the question: Can images/thoughts hear, feel, or see?

No not at all. It's just an image

What is there without these images?

Just experiencing. Or "the world" or the senses.

Remove all the labels such as inner voice, head, face, ears, eyes.

What is left? Where is the witness? What is the experience of it?

Just seeing is left. the witness is a thought. The experience of the witness is thought. Whats makes it so believable or hard to see is the thought constantly changes and is believed again or a new.

Where is the thinker of these thoughts?

The isn't one. Thought points to another thought and says "that's the thinker"

Where is the one that believes these thoughts?

This seems to get in deeper. It's harder to answer.. I can see the "one" is another thought that will constantly reinvent itself or point to another thought. However, there seems to come a point where theres nowhere to go and the the felt sense of "I" or "I" feels threatened. I start seeing that I could be a thought and my whole history or the history of Jose is all just a thought. This isn't in anyway a bad thing and I think I see what you mean when you say something like "it was never really any different so really nothing changes or nothing is lost"? Sorry not a direct quote.

The parts required are a thought/image of the face and eyes looking around, combined with the sensation.

And in any of these, is there an inherent witness? Or is there simply noticing arising with whatever is arising?

No they're there is no inherent witness in a thought or sensation. Yes noticing arising with whatever is arising.

No sensation + witness, but just sensation and noticing of it, both together as one thing, only divided because thought makes it so?

Yes this makes sense. There is sensation, "noticing" is a pure concept. Witness is also a concept that points to a thought.

That's why when you look, there are no borders. There is only thought saying "These sensations here are called Fred and Mavis and they are the watchers. And then we have sensations here that are being watched."

Yes understood :)

Thought slices the pizza and calls each piece separate from the rest :)

Yes I like this :) and think I understand

[Bluejay]

Just seeing is left. the witness is a thought. The experience of the witness is thought. Whats makes it so believable or hard to see is the thought constantly changes and is believed again or a new.

Yes. This is the flip-flopping process described in Ilona's Falling video I believe (link here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJQcD588g2w).

You begin to see through the illusion. Then old stuff comes up and goes "is this true? what about this one? or that one there?"

Eventually as you keep looking, something clicks and it can never go back to the way it was. It doesn't always happen with a bang. Sometimes it's just "Oh, well that's obvious."

This seems to get in deeper. It's harder to answer.. I can see the "one" is another thought that will constantly reinvent itself or point to another thought. However, there seems to come a point where theres nowhere to go and the the felt sense of "I" or "I" feels threatened. I start seeing that I could be a thought and my whole history or the history of Jose is all just a thought. This isn't in anyway a bad thing and I think I see what you mean when you say something like "it was never really any different so really nothing changes or nothing is lost"? Sorry not a direct quote.

There can be some grieving and sadness during this process. The whole system has gotten used to operating on this assumption. It's good to welcome any feelings like this when they come up.

Try this... Say silently: I am okay with the history of Jose just being a thought

Then notice what comes up. Images, voices, sensations, smells, tastes, thoughts. Welcome it all in and be with it. Let it do whatever it wants. Let it be heard. Sit with it until it is done.

Repeat the sentence (or a variation of the sentence that feels more right) as needed.

And then explore these questions:

What is the experience of "I" feeling threatened?

Who or what starts to see that the history of Jose is all just a thought?

Is there a believer of thoughts? Are 'you' getting stuck to thoughts, or is it also just happening?

And then: Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no separate self, doer, witness, chooser, ice cream eater?

[okjose]

Hi Henri, this has been a tough one! Theres been a lot of deep looking and exploring and experimenting. There was a fair bit of resistance to this today and yesterday but I've persevered. There hasn't been any click or penny dropping but lots of little moments or shifts and sense of relief and relaxation (eg when it's seen theres no controller or decider) also lots of frustration at looking for something that isn't there or not wanting to admit what is seen (eg Jose being a thought). A lot of confusion but then also relief and clarity. So I guess a lot of flip flopping. All in all things are becoming more equal if that makes sense. The thought of a separate self and all it's parts (different thoughts and sensation) I think are seeming more like any other thought or sensation and of equal value.

Try this... Say silently: I am okay with the history of Jose just being a thought

This has been very helpful.

What is the experience of "I" feeling threatened?

The actual experience is a thought of "Jose" and another thought that says "this might be lost forever". And then sensations of anger and a thought of "loosing this image will be the end of me" and "I don't know whats on the other side of that".
It's clearly all thought though. And not felt so strongly now.

Who or what starts to see that the history of Jose is all just a thought?

Nothing or no one can be seen or found that "sees" this. I guess like you said the noticing and whats arising are the same thing.

Is there a believer of thoughts? Are 'you' getting stuck to thoughts, or is it also just happening?

No, when looked it's more like the thought itself is the belief. Thoughts are just happening, including the thoughts that create the separate self.

And then: Can you say with 100% certainty that there is no separate self, doer, witness, chooser, ice cream eater?

I've been at this question for a while now. I'm reluctant to say with 100% certainty because I don't think there's been a click here or the penny dropping so to speak.
But the separate self (or it's parts) are seen and arise and are here like everything else. There is no doer behind the doing, no witnesser, no chooser, no ice cream eater haha, but there is still ice cream eating right? :)

There's still a lot of looking happening here and also the expectation/thought of a penny drop moment where i’m certain. But also right now there’s confusion about what separation is.. it all seems to be made by labels. Remove the labels and theres just whats going on, but in a very boring or ordinary way. I’m also a bit of a perfectionist (to my detriment at times), I wonder am I just making this WAY more complicated than necessary.

I’ve been expecting the overlay of thought to disappear or become less prominent. Now it seems it’s more just a case that anything that is happening is simply seen for what it is.
The self referencing thought was seen as the bad guy but it’s here and maybe not so bad after all.

[Bluejay]

Hi Henri, this has been a tough one! Theres been a lot of deep looking and exploring and experimenting. There was a fair bit of resistance to this today and yesterday but I've persevered. There hasn't been any click or penny dropping but lots of little moments or shifts and sense of relief and relaxation (eg when it's seen theres no controller or decider) also lots of frustration at looking for something that isn't there or not wanting to admit what is seen (eg Jose being a thought). A lot of confusion but then also relief and clarity. So I guess a lot of flip flopping. All in all things are becoming more equal if that makes sense. The thought of a separate self and all it's parts (different thoughts and sensation) I think are seeming more like any other thought or sensation and of equal value.

This all sounds good to me. Great work in persevering with it :)

The actual experience is a thought of "Jose" and another thought that says "this might be lost forever". And then sensations of anger and a thought of "loosing this image will be the end of me" and "I don't know whats on the other side of that".
It's clearly all thought though. And not felt so strongly now.

What is it that might be lost?

What is actually at stake here beyond the superficial "I'm losing me"?

What is the bad thing that will happen?

You can discover the end point by asking: And then what?

Thoughts are just happening, including the thoughts that create the separate self.

Do thoughts have the power to create the separate self? :)

But the separate self (or it's parts) are seen and arise and are here like everything else. There is no doer behind the doing, no witnesser, no chooser, no ice cream eater haha, but there is still ice cream eating right? :)

Ice cream eating seems to remain, thank the lords :--) (even though I never seem to get around to doing it)

There's still a lot of looking happening here and also the expectation/thought of a penny drop moment where i’m certain. But also right now there’s confusion about what separation is.. it all seems to be made by labels. Remove the labels and theres just whats going on, but in a very boring or ordinary way. I’m also a bit of a perfectionist (to my detriment at times), I wonder am I just making this WAY more complicated than necessary.

I’ve been expecting the overlay of thought to disappear or become less prominent. Now it seems it’s more just a case that anything that is happening is simply seen for what it is.
The self referencing thought was seen as the bad guy but it’s here and maybe not so bad after all.

This certainty itself can be a trap, a hiding place for the 'self'.

If there's an expectation that thought will become less, more behaved, better, anything like that, that is just another way for the 'self' to hang on.

So let's have a look. When you meet this uncertainty of have I got it or not, instead of looking at the reaction (doubt), look at the primary sensation.

There's a primary sensation that emerges, then there's a jump to doubt to avoid feeling that.

Do you see this?

More questions:

How is doubt experienced?
As what does it come? As a real sound, image, smell, taste, sensation?
Who or what is not sure?
And sure about what exactly?

[okjose]

What is it that might be lost?

Ah ok yes I think it's fear of loosing my personality.

What is actually at stake here beyond the superficial "I'm losing me"?

It feels like a piece of me or something I've worked hard to create or something I've known for a long time is at stake (my history which = my personality).. Potential change in the way people close to me might react or how it might affect them if my personality changes. Basically a thought that this could be detrimental to the way my life is now and to my loved ones especially my partner. But still all thoughts.

What is the bad thing that will happen?

Like I might die or something (not literally but who I think I am). The whole fear is like a fear of instability/loosing control. Loosing who I am and so loosing the people around me.

Do thoughts have the power to create the separate self? :)

No :) this is great. They don't have that power. So what's going on then?
I actually first wrote then deleted: "So theres no separate self then? " haha

This certainty itself can be a trap, a hiding place for the 'self'.

Yes there been a fair amount of doubt or the thought of a future "me" being certain.

So let's have a look. When you meet this uncertainty of have I got it or not, instead of looking at the reaction (doubt), look at the primary sensation.

There's a primary sensation that emerges, then there's a jump to doubt to avoid feeling that.

Do you see this?

Yes I think so.

How is doubt experienced?

The doubt itself is this thought "I might not be getting it"

As what does it come? As a real sound, image, smell, taste, sensation?

Theres an unpleasant sensation of emptiness and sinking feeling in the abdomen. Like a feeling of embarrassment or shame.

Who or what is not sure?

It's an image of a "me" looking sad.

And sure about what exactly?

Not sure If it's seen that...

I literally just had the thought of course there's no separate self. How could there be it's ridiculous!
It wouldn't make any sense. Seperate from what.

Now theres the doubt thought saying I'm delusional.

But I can't answer that last question: "And sure about what exactly?"

There's a big sense of relief, a spacious feeling in my abdomen like more space to breath.. and also a smidgen of the feeling of doubt which is a contraction or dense feeling. Which I think is a thought or a fear of looking silly.

But the idea of a separate me or self seems so silly.

I'm going a bit back and forth but.... separate from what? is all I can think

[Bluejay]

But I can't answer that last question: "And sure about what exactly?"

There's a big sense of relief, a spacious feeling in my abdomen like more space to breath.. and also a smidgen of the feeling of doubt which is a contraction or dense feeling. Which I think is a thought or a fear of looking silly.

But the idea of a separate me or self seems so silly.

I'm going a bit back and forth but.... separate from what? is all I can think

(Starting with this first)

Good. Did you just hear the penny?

This is it. Sit with this. Relax into it.

Then explore the rest of this post and relax into it even more.

Ah ok yes I think it's fear of loosing my personality.

What is the experience of personality?

It feels like a piece of me or something I've worked hard to create or something I've known for a long time is at stake (my history which = my personality).. Potential change in the way people close to me might react or how it might affect them if my personality changes. Basically a thought that this could be detrimental to the way my life is now and to my loved ones especially my partner. But still all thoughts.

It could be detrimental, so shall we stop the inquiry here then? :)

Like I might die or something (not literally but who I think I am). The whole fear is like a fear of instability/loosing control. Loosing who I am and so loosing the people around me.

What is this I that can die?

What is the experience of instability / stability?

Who has had control? Who is losing it? Control of what?

Can you decide if you lose the people around you or not?

Can losing the people happen even if self isn't seen?

Can keeping people happen if illusion of self is seen?

The doubt itself is this thought "I might not be getting it"
Theres an unpleasant sensation of emptiness and sinking feeling in the abdomen. Like a feeling of embarrassment or shame.

I don't know if this is still relevant after the shift you had, but you can try it out and see what happens.

Excellent, can you stay with the unpleasant sensation of emptiness and sinking feeling? The embarrassment and shame?

Then try saying this: "I might be getting it" -- let images, sounds, sensations come up and welcome them completely.
Also try: "This is it" (without I completely in the sentence)

If there is resistance, try saying: "I am welcoming this fully" -- again, welcome everything that comes up.

Enjoy! :)

[okjose]

Good. Did you just hear the penny?

I believe so, there was definitly a sudden drop. It was like oh I knew this already what have I been trying to disprove.
Theres still doubt here or fear of loosing it though but what I don't even know.

What is the experience of personality?

I don't know. It's a concept for sure. Like how people see you as a whole. the more I look at it the more ridiculous it appears. It doesn't really exist apart from as an idea but even that's hard to describe. I don't know if id ever have been able to describe it.
I think I was using it as 'how I think, others think of me' which is a lot of mental gymnastics.

It could be detrimental, so shall we stop the inquiry here then? :)

Definitely not :)

Like I might die or something (not literally but who I think I am). The whole fear is like a fear of instability/loosing control. Loosing who I am and so loosing the people around me.
What is this I that can die?

It's thin air really.

What is the experience of instability / stability?

Really contracting tensing with an idea. I'm not sure

Who has had control? Who is losing it? Control of what?

It's all an idea so no one I guess.

Can you decide if you lose the people around you or not?

No

Can losing the people happen even if self isn't seen?

Yes

Can keeping people happen if illusion of self is seen?

No

Excellent, can you stay with the unpleasant sensation of emptiness and sinking feeling? The embarrassment and shame?

Then try saying this: "I might be getting it" -- let images, sounds, sensations come up and welcome them completely.
Also try: "This is it" (without I completely in the sentence)

If there is resistance, try saying: "I am welcoming this fully" -- again, welcome everything that comes up.

Yes this seems to have an effect. I've become quite tired though.

[Bluejay]

Yes this seems to have an effect. I've become quite tired though.

This tends to happen with shifts, so take a break and just relax. Enjoy life :)

And when you're ready...

I believe so, there was definitly a sudden drop. It was like oh I knew this already what have I been trying to disprove.
Theres still doubt here or fear of loosing it though but what I don't even know.

Keep looking into whatever comes up with the same structure:

1. What is the actual fear? What is at the bottom of it all?
2. What is the experience of whatever is found?
3. Who is in control of any of that? Or doing it? Or deciding, or avoiding?
4. Stay with the primary sensation instead of jumping into distraction (doubt, fear, more thinking)

I don't know. It's a concept for sure. Like how people see you as a whole. the more I look at it the more ridiculous it appears. It doesn't really exist apart from as an idea but even that's hard to describe. I don't know if id ever have been able to describe it.
I think I was using it as 'how I think, others think of me' which is a lot of mental gymnastics.

You mentioned you have social anxiety if I remember correctly. With that comes a lot of 'what do they think of me' and so on.

All of that will probably not be unraveled here, but it doesn't need to be in order to see through the illusion of self. All of that is much easier to work with when it's not happening to a someone, which you've probably already noticed.

It's also useful to ask: Can you control how people see you?

Can other people control how they see you? Do they have a chooser that you don't? :)

Can you even control what you do, or is it simply arising?

Definitely not :)

Hehee :-)

It's all an idea so no one I guess.

It's important that you really look. "I guess" is a good sign that thinking is coming in to avoid going deeper.

It could also be because you're tired, but something to remember if you notice it happening again.

Cheerio!