Seeking help getting to the exit door

[Bluejay]

When I inquire as to whether this knowing/knower that knows the sensation is there is the self, I can't even find or pin down this knowing capacity.

This is the whole game, isn't it? At quick glance, something seems to be there, but when inquired into, there is nothing there except the senses dancing.

Avoid going into thinking to figure out the knowing. Stay with the senses and what is actually there.

When there is a feeling that something knows a sensation, what is actually there? Is there a knower, or sensations jumping around in quick succession making it seem like there are two things?

Vipassana can be useful here to see how this happens. Also it can be helpful looking for the border between knowing and sensation. Are there two things?

It reminds me of something Ajahn Sumedho once said about this. He said how he wasn't his name, his personal history, etc. That if he was anything, he was this awareness, this thing that knows.

There are many ways to talk about this. It would be best to only rely on your own experience.

I'm not taking that as necessarily true, the problem with this is trying to inquire into something being a self/"me", etc, when you can see it's there, yet when I go looking for it, it is nowhere to be found.

And when you don't find anything, stay there. The absence is the answer.

If you inquire for 15 minutes, after a while you will spend 10+ minutes just in not finding anything. Stay there, because this has to click on an experiential level.

There is nothing to figure out or to understand. Just stay with the direct experience.

Does this make sense?

[Darrell]

Henri,

I've been working with this, although as is so often is the case, the trick is *remembering* to.

Anyway, your points and input were helpful. One thing that has been a sticking point - fear. When fear comes up, and I do as you suggested, the fear seems to have a solidity, a selfness that I don't know how to get past. I think it's because this is connected to instinct. But when I consider that, it all just seems made up, yet I still can't get 'unstuck' from the fear.

One other thing. When doing as you suggested, I clearly and easily see that the thoughts and sensations are *not* self. But when I keep looking back to what seems to be referred to, there's this sense of 'hereness' or centrality that seems persistent. Is that a self? No, it doesn't seem to be, but it seems so solid, central, here and there doesn't seem to be any getting away from it.

[Bluejay]

I've been working with this, although as is so often is the case, the trick is *remembering* to.

This makes me want to ask: Does this inquiry feel alive to you? I don't mean inquiry in general, but just our conversation here.

And I'm not pointing to what thoughts say, but what it feels like in the body. Does it feel interesting, magnetic, alive?

Sometimes there can be a forcing of things because we perceive that if we do X, we will get Y. But this cannot be forced. So if this doesn't feel alive, it would be best to take a break to see how things settle.

Anyway, your points and input were helpful. One thing that has been a sticking point - fear. When fear comes up, and I do as you suggested, the fear seems to have a solidity, a selfness that I don't know how to get past. I think it's because this is connected to instinct. But when I consider that, it all just seems made up, yet I still can't get 'unstuck' from the fear.

Don't try to get unstuck. Instead, be completely stuck. Feel the fear fully. Let it expand. If there are stories associated, listen to them, and let them elaborate on what is going on while feeling everything.

One other thing. When doing as you suggested, I clearly and easily see that the thoughts and sensations are *not* self. But when I keep looking back to what seems to be referred to, there's this sense of 'hereness' or centrality that seems persistent. Is that a self? No, it doesn't seem to be, but it seems so solid, central, here and there doesn't seem to be any getting away from it.

Hereness and centrality is a later fetter. Let's stay focused on if there is a doer, thinker, controller, and so on? :)

[Darrell]

This makes me want to ask: Does this inquiry feel alive to you? I don't mean inquiry in general, but just our conversation here.

And I'm not pointing to what thoughts say, but what it feels like in the body. Does it feel interesting, magnetic, alive?

Sometimes there can be a forcing of things because we perceive that if we do X, we will get Y. But this cannot be forced. So if this doesn't feel alive, it would be best to take a break to see how things settle.

It is interesting, and I'm drawn to do this, in a manner of speaking. I say that because it is pretty clear that this process is self motivating, self organizing and self directing. It's hard to say anything about it being alive, due to all the things that have been going on for so long. It's been nearly non-stop with my wife's health issues since July of 2022. Through all of that, I've continued to meditate (although that's been on pause for a bit now), do inquiry, participate in groups that are about this or oriented towards it, reading about it, etc. I don't know if that answers your question or not.

Don't try to get unstuck. Instead, be completely stuck. Feel the fear fully. Let it expand. If there are stories associated, listen to them, and let them elaborate on what is going on while feeling everything.

Okay, great idea. I'll do that and let you know what comes up.

Hereness and centrality is a later fetter. Let's stay focused on if there is a doer, thinker, controller, and so on? :)

That helps sort the confusion. I can tell you there is very clearly and undoubtedly *not* a doer, etc. I frequently look to see who makes a decision, or initiates action. Every time it's the same - it's so clear there's no one doing anything, things just happen. Control is a weird one, because it was so obvious last July after that moment of seeing that there's not any such thing as control. Yet an intention can arise, the person moves to do something, and a result follows.

[Bluejay]

I don't know if that answers your question or not.

I think so!

That helps sort the confusion. I can tell you there is very clearly and undoubtedly *not* a doer, etc. I frequently look to see who makes a decision, or initiates action. Every time it's the same - it's so clear there's no one doing anything, things just happen. Control is a weird one, because it was so obvious last July after that moment of seeing that there's not any such thing as control. Yet an intention can arise, the person moves to do something, and a result follows.

Great!

Then what was it that was your stumbling block in thinking you aren't done with the belief in an inherent, independent self?

For example, can you control what thoughts to think, which feelings to feel, or what experience to have?

Okay, great idea. I'll do that and let you know what comes up.

Alright :)

[Darrell]

Then what was it that was your stumbling block in thinking you aren't done with the belief in an inherent, independent self?

For example, can you control what thoughts to think, which feelings to feel, or what experience to have?

Working backwards -

No, I can clearly see that I don't intend to think thoughts, they come up on their own, experience dictates or creates itself, and so on. It's very clear when looking that bodily sensations, contractions or what have you, is *not* "me" or "myself". Yet when not actively and directly looking, there seems to be this quiet, silent assumption that those things are this "me", "I" or "myself". I'm thinking this is, as you said, later fetters.

So I think that might be the stumbling block. That there are these expectations as to what seeing through self means or equates to. This idea, "After seeing there isn't an enduring, independent self, it should be like this." Also, for about two weeks after seeing through the illusion of self, there was very reduced reactivity, no desire or move to defend myself or blame others when there were conflicts, and seeing very clearly no one has any control. That faded, and creates the sense that something was lost. What was perceived as lost is part of this idea and belief what awakening is. I guess with that is the assumption that seeing through the illusion didn't hold, even thought if I look, I see clearly there isn't anyone who makes decisions, chooses to act, thinks or feels.

[Bluejay]

I'm thinking this is, as you said, later fetters.

Yes, you sound quite clear, and you had a shift, which is a good sign.

The way I would approach this is to assume you're done and move on. I work with Kevin's fetters, so that would mean going to fetters 4/5 and beginning to look into reactivity.

If it turns out there is something left in fetter 1, then you simply deal with it when and if it comes up. Even if fetter 1 isn't done, going to 4/5 can loosen things up, or bring up something new.

So I think that might be the stumbling block. That there are these expectations as to what seeing through self means or equates to.

Absolutely. It's very common to have expectations come up again and again on the fetter journey. A common one is always feeling good. The expectation is there because the desire/aversion is there.

Also, for about two weeks after seeing through the illusion of self, there was very reduced reactivity, no desire or move to defend myself or blame others when there were conflicts, and seeing very clearly no one has any control. That faded, and creates the sense that something was lost.

Sounds like a glimpse. Sometimes seeing through fetter 1 you see through many fetters all at once. Some people go all the way to F8 for a while. That might explain why some are horrified since that can be overwhelming to experience so suddenly.

What was perceived as lost is part of this idea and belief what awakening is. I guess with that is the assumption that seeing through the illusion didn't hold, even thought if I look, I see clearly there isn't anyone who makes decisions, chooses to act, thinks or feels.

One way to think about fetter 1 vs 4/5 is that F1 is about being able to control yourself (thoughts, decisions, experience, feelings) and F4/5 is about controlling others/situations.

The confusing part about this is that many things can feel like F1, and do often get confused with it.

But if you've had a shift and it is clear to you that there is no one in control, then I would just move on. No need to try to perfect anything. Let the process be messy and uncertain.

There can also be echoes of F1 even after seeing through it. In other words, F1 comes up for a second and is seen through automatically. This might go on for days or weeks, but that specific pattern falls away, and the process continues. Do you notice anything like this?

[Darrell]

I'm okay with this idea of moving on, the question that pops up is, "but what about fetters two and three?" meaning, the first one seems pretty obvious, but in all of this, it seems like there's been a lot of doubt. In fact, that was the first thing that came up in a pretty intense way after last July's moment of seeing. There's also still this apparent attachment to ways of doing things, habits, in other words, rites and rituals. Not in the literal Buddhist sense (which seems problematic when taken literally).

"There can also be echoes of F1 even after seeing through it. In other words, F1 comes up for a second and is seen through automatically. This might go on for days or weeks, but that specific pattern falls away, and the process continues. Do you notice anything like this?"

I'm not quite sure. Can you maybe give a few specific examples of what this might look like? I mean, yes to F1 comes up and is seen through. But am unsure when you refer to it as a pattern. I can say yes to seeing something that is taken as self/me/I, but when seen directly, it is seen to not be that at all. And this is still going on after all these months. It's a daily occurrence.

[Bluejay]

I'm okay with this idea of moving on, the question that pops up is, "but what about fetters two and three?" meaning, the first one seems pretty obvious, but in all of this, it seems like there's been a lot of doubt. In fact, that was the first thing that came up in a pretty intense way after last July's moment of seeing. There's also still this apparent attachment to ways of doing things, habits, in other words, rites and rituals. Not in the literal Buddhist sense (which seems problematic when taken literally).

This is where you would need to feel into what you feel most drawn toward (Pernille's take on the fetters or Kevin's). I've found Kevin's to work for me.

The doubt could also be 4/5 related. I don't know since we're not going in-depth on it here.

But if there's no movement and you're spinning your wheels with doubt (are you?), then why not try moving on and see what happens. Remember, there is no one way to do this. The fetters, all takes on it, are only ideas that work for you or not.

Also, the next step is likely to be emotional work, so as far as I know, that's similar in kevin's 4/5 and pernille's 2/3. Even in the 4/5 inquiry into reactivity, there may be moments of emotional/trauma work.

What kind of habits are you attached to, if you want to share?

I'm not quite sure. Can you maybe give a few specific examples of what this might look like? I mean, yes to F1 comes up and is seen through. But am unsure when you refer to it as a pattern. I can say yes to seeing something that is taken as self/me/I, but when seen directly, it is seen to not be that at all. And this is still going on after all these months. It's a daily occurrence.

For example, if there is attachment to a morning ritual. You notice that happening over and over, and it keeps going. You remain curious about it, looking into it, and then suddenly one day it is gone.

That is what I would call a pattern unraveling itself.

[Darrell]

To answer your question Henri, it is pretty mundane things, such as how I load the dishwasher, or a tendency to keep things organized and neat. Stuff that most people wouldn't care about and probably appears fairly OCD. A woman I knew who was an autism specialist said she thought I was autistic. Because of some of those traits and tendencies, I do wonder. It's not a concern, but it does help to possibly explain some of these things I do.

As I said above, some of this is just attachment to how I do many things. But it also is this idea that my way of doing things is right or better. It's not something that is so intense that it creates problems with other people. I can let go of the desire to do things "my" way. But in doing so, it's not uncommon to let go of that thing, all the while having a sense that "my" way makes more sense or leads to a better result. I also recognize that this isn't actually true, it's just how this mind perceives it, but there's still that preference.

As an aside, and touching on what you wrote, I have long believed, based on a therapist I trusted who said as much to me, that some of these habits and practices (rites and rituals?) developed as a response to the dysfunction in the house I grew up in. That same dysfunction resulted in trauma for myself and my two siblings. It was said by this therapist that I did/do these things as a means to feel that I had some measure of control, in an otherwise out of control environment in the home I was raised in. Specifically it was the fact that I kept my childhood room spotless, and immaculately organized.

So I will use these things we're discussing as an opportunity for further inquiry. I'm gradually getting a stronger habit for remembering to get curious about certain things when they appear. Particularly those things that are emotionally charged or unpleasant. I'll add these habits and tendencies to that.

[Bluejay]

Hello Darrell,

Thank you for your answer!

FIY, I am now being mentored by Christiane.

As an aside, and touching on what you wrote, I have long believed, based on a therapist I trusted who said as much to me, that some of these habits and practices (rites and rituals?) developed as a response to the dysfunction in the house I grew up in. That same dysfunction resulted in trauma for myself and my two siblings. It was said by this therapist that I did/do these things as a means to feel that I had some measure of control, in an otherwise out of control environment in the home I was raised in. Specifically it was the fact that I kept my childhood room spotless, and immaculately organized.

Sorry to hear about the difficulties you experienced in childhood. It's helpful to remember that none of what happened was your fault, although it may sometimes feel like it, because that is how we as children cope.

A woman I knew who was an autism specialist said she thought I was autistic. Because of some of those traits and tendencies, I do wonder. It's not a concern, but it does help to possibly explain some of these things I do.

The good news is that autistic people have an especially good chance of being successful in this kind of inquiry :)

So I will use these things we're discussing as an opportunity for further inquiry. I'm gradually getting a stronger habit for remembering to get curious about certain things when they appear. Particularly those things that are emotionally charged or unpleasant. I'll add these habits and tendencies to that.

So... when loading the dishwasher or keeping things organized, is there an entity doing it?

Is there an entity that has these habits, tendencies, or emotions?

What is your process for looking for the entity/self?

Cheerio!
Henri

[Darrell]

Henri,

That's excellent news. Last I heard she wasn't working directly with others. That's very fortunate for you.

In recent months, much of that childhood stuff had come up, but I was just allowing the feelings to come up, and not indulging in the stories. It was rough there for a bit, but now it has calmed back down. I'd been using a practice suggested by someone to just let the feelings be felt. Meaning that none of this was reinforcing the story of a victim, or someone it happened to. For the first time in my life, I actually feel nothing about all of those things that happened as a kid and teen.

I'm looking to go get tested to see if I am in fact autistic. I'm not sure what value or benefit there is in it. We'll see.

It's a curious thing. If I look, there's no one doing the dishes or having a preference for how the dishes are done, it's just happening. But if I don't look, it often seems there's someone there. I've been paying attention to this sort of thing recently, and what I find is that there's an assumption there, that is the root of or basis for there being someone. It's really just a thought and/or a mental picture that forms this assumption. So we would say that the idea that there's someone is just a thought.

The same appears to be true for habits, tendencies and emotions.

My process shows up in a few ways. Most typically, as I go about my day, when difficult or unpleasant feelings come up, I look to find what creates this sense of there being someone there. I usually ask questions such as "what is it that creates the sense of someone being here?" or "How do I know there's someone here?" Sometimes I just use a suggestion I heard Christiane offer at a Perfectly Okay meeting she was a guest at. She said to look for the self like you would your car keys if they were missing. The thing is, when I look, I very quickly see there's *no one* here. So these seem to be reminders, like this is being reinforced. I also inquire into feelings and emotions, as these are a source of a sense of someone. If I'm upset, or irritated, I ask how do I know I'm feeling X? Is it true that I'm feeling the way I seem to. Invariably, I find it is not true. More things built on assumptions. Other times I just stop and notice who is looking. I did this just a little while when it was noticed how nice the fading sunlight looked. Almost immediately it was noticed there was no one there, just looking was happening, that's all. I need to get better at doing these things more throughout the day. It seems reinforcement is in order.

Last Wednesday night, something happened though. This sense of the emptiness of self was deepened. Since then, reactivity has lessened. Things have felt lighter and freer. My wife has noticed I have been happier. Last night something happened that I reacted to, and I was sort of disappointed. The thinking was that this must mean that whatever happened was fading. Then it hit me, before last week, I really would have over reacted, probably raised my voice and so on. None of that happened. so even though there's reactivity still, much of it is not what it was prior to last week.

It seems this is what some would call the educational variety of awakening. It happens bit by bit, rather than the all at once "pow" and you've got it kensho variety.

[Bluejay]

For the first time in my life, I actually feel nothing about all of those things that happened as a kid and teen.

That sounds great :)

It's really just a thought and/or a mental picture that forms this assumption. So we would say that the idea that there's someone is just a thought. The same appears to be true for habits, tendencies and emotions.

We could say it is just a thought, but if there's a sense that there is someone, that's what we want to focus on.

The first step is learning to look in direct experience. The next step is to not deconstruct the sense of self, but allow it to be there, so you can explore it.

The goal is for the sense of self to not arise at all. For that to happen, you need to look directly at sense of self and what is there.

The thing is, when I look, I very quickly see there's *no one* here.
Other times I just stop and notice who is looking.

Maybe focus more on the sense of self. So when you stop and notice, instead of looking for a who, look for the feeling that someone is looking.

What is it?
Where is it?
How does it work?

Last Wednesday night, something happened though. This sense of the emptiness of self was deepened. Since then, reactivity has lessened. Things have felt lighter and freer. My wife has noticed I have been happier. Last night something happened that I reacted to, and I was sort of disappointed. The thinking was that this must mean that whatever happened was fading. Then it hit me, before last week, I really would have over reacted, probably raised my voice and so on. None of that happened. so even though there's reactivity still, much of it is not what it was prior to last week.

That's a good perspective to have!

Do you expect reactivity to disappear with the self-illusion?

Also, what exactly is it that is becoming emptier? (when you refer to the emptiness of self deepening)

All the best,
Henri

[Darrell]

We could say it is just a thought, but if there's a sense that there is someone, that's what we want to focus on.

The first step is learning to look in direct experience. The next step is to not deconstruct the sense of self, but allow it to be there, so you can explore it.

The goal is for the sense of self to not arise at all. For that to happen, you need to look directly at sense of self and what is there

I had completely overlooked that, with regard to thought. So when you say "looking into direct experience" you mean to just look at hearing, seeing, smelling, tactile sense, or in Buddhist parlance, what's at the sense doors?

I'll look directly for the sense of self. It seems all I find when I look is this sense of 'hereness' or centrality, meaning something here, relative to these hands in front of the eyes typing, the keyboard, anything that isn't 'here'. Here, because I know you'll ask, seems to simply be the bodily sense. The body's energy, sense of temperature, heart rate, slight ache in the head, etc. So getting a full blown sense of self is hard, because it's understood that none of these things are "I" or "me".

Maybe focus more on the sense of self. So when you stop and notice, instead of looking for a who, look for the feeling that someone is looking.

What is it?
Where is it?
How does it work?

Look for the feeling that someone is looking. Okay, that's helpful, as are those questions. I'll work with these and report back.

That's a good perspective to have!

Do you expect reactivity to disappear with the self-illusion?

Also, what exactly is it that is becoming emptier? (when you refer to the emptiness of self deepening)

No, I know that the end of reactivity is down the line. It's simply a good indicator of heading in the right direction. By emptiness, I mean the more concrete sense of someone being here. It's hard to recall what it was like before last July, or before any of this work was undertaken, but I know that things don't feel as solid or substantial as they once did. For instance, there once was a hard boundary at the surface of the skin; in here/out there. It's still there, but not with the hard definition, certainty or container like quality that it once had. Or so it seems. What happened two weeks ago now seems like a dream. While reactivity and the belief in feelings, the relationship to feelings is still changed, I can't recall what the before and after was like the way I could those first few days. Someone once said memory is a gimmick, well, so is the mind. I can't recall what that deeper sense of emptiness of self felt like!

I know you said not apologize and such for not responding promptly, but while we're on the subject, these responses are delayed due to forgetting! It seems worse than it was, which is strange because I had a far better than average memory up until about a year ago. Not sure what that's about.

[Bluejay]

I know you said not apologize and such for not responding promptly, but while we're on the subject, these responses are delayed due to forgetting! It seems worse than it was, which is strange because I had a far better than average memory up until about a year ago. Not sure what that's about.

Forgetfulness is to be expected. As the fetters weaken and are broken, the thoughts don't stick to anything, so they just slide off. There's nothing holding them in place.

You could always use reminders, your calendar, an alarm clock, or whatever works for you to explore the questions a few times per day.

I had completely overlooked that, with regard to thought. So when you say "looking into direct experience" you mean to just look at hearing, seeing, smelling, tactile sense, or in Buddhist parlance, what's at the sense doors?

If you notice a sense of self, it can be easy to default to deconstructing it into sensations, thoughts, and so on. We want to avoid this. Keep the feeling of self alive so you can look at what it is.

An example would be if you've built a small person with Lego blocks. We can deconstruct it into pieces and say there's nothing there. But we don't want to do that. Instead, stop just before deconstruction, and look at what it is doing, if anything.

No, I know that the end of reactivity is down the line. It's simply a good indicator of heading in the right direction.

Reactivity is no indicator of how the self-illusion is going, so there's no need to use it as a barometer.

That said, strong emotions can be a good way to explore the sense of self.

Look for the feeling that someone is looking. Okay, that's helpful, as are those questions. I'll work with these and report back.

Okay, take your time and explore the questions :)