Liberation from self

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate self, me, I, in any way shape or form. It is only and has only every been a thought and a belief. It never existed and it doesn't exist now.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It is the thought or belief that there is a me that is experiencing everything and that has agency and has control of mind, body and thoughts. It was developed very young in life by parents, people, the culture identifying the person as a separate self with a personality, a history, a life. The way it has worked for me is that most thoughts are related to the "me", how something will affect "me", what will make "me" happy, what should "I" do to ensure a particular outcome for "me". There is the belief that "I" am the doer, the experiencer of all that happens.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It felt somewhat embarrassing today, seeing how much time and energy and thought has been dedicated to this illusory entity. But there is also the possibility of so much freedom and relaxation when it is seen that there is no need for all of the fear and worry about something that isn't there and doesn't need to be taken care of so diligently. Before starting this dialogue there was not direct experience of no self, no doer, no experiencer. The last couple of days have been lived mostly in the thought structure of the self, but there is more of a seeing through of that thought structure, more noting the quantity of "I" thoughts. Its a process of going to direct experience and finding the absence of the self in that experience.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It doesn't seem like there was a defining moment, and there is still much unawareness operating a lot of the time. But there was a lot of clarity a couple of weeks ago for a few days and that felt like a turning point. All the exercises and questions you provided laid the foundation for the knowing. I think the most clarifying exercise was looking at thoughts and seeing that "I" had no control over them. And also seeing very clearly that I, me, mine, were only thoughts. Also, the experiments around doership and seeing that there was no doer.

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.

All of these are made of thought and they are not in "my" control. They just happen, decisions are made, but not by me, intention arises, there is no free will, there is no choice - choice occurs but "I" am not making the choice. A thought makes the choice, I have no control over the thought.

What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

I have no idea what makes things happen. Things just happen. I don't know how it works. It is a great mystery. I'm thinking of the experiment of flipping the hand over repeatedly. Somehow there's a thought to flip the hand over and the hand flips over. Sometimes it doesn't even seem that there is a thought and yet the hand flips over anyway. No idea how it works or how it happens.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I'm not responsible for anything. There is no "I" to be responsible. There are only things happening in this manifestation of a being.
Thank you from my heart for your time and help and advice and understanding. This experience has been very helpful in seeing what is more accurately going on (or not going on).
Thank you so much,
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

Great. There is a need to clarify about this :

4) It doesn't seem like there was a defining moment, and there is still much unawareness operating a lot of the time.
What do you mean by "unawareness" ?
Just try to be not aware : what is the result?


5) ......A thought makes the choice, I have no control over the thought.
Can a thought do a choice or something else?

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
So, there was a very humbling and somewhat embarrassing experience this morning after reading your post. It felt like another layer of the onion of delusion peeled off. I saw that everything is still being seen through the self. Everything! It was like being in a house of mirrors -always going back to the self. Every thought, every point of view was through the lens of the self. It was quite a shake up. And I kept thinking "I'm making progress. Look how well I am doing." I, I, I. Really humbling.

What do you mean by "unawareness" ?
Just try to be not aware : what is the result?

This made me laugh. Of course there is always awareness. When I wrote about unawareness, it meant not seeing through the filter of the self.

Just try to be not aware : what is the result?

It's not possible to not be aware. That is all there is.

Can a thought do a choice or something else?

This is confusing. There is a thought about a choice to be made. Then a choice is made. It seems that the thought makes the choice, but you're right, a thought doesn't do anything. So the choice is made, but not by the thought. Don't know what makes the choice or if there is a choice made or there's just something that happens. I'm not sure about this.
So, there is a lot of confusion here about a lot. Just trying to be with what comes up.
Thanks,
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

So, there was a very humbling and somewhat embarrassing experience this morning after reading your post. It felt like another layer of the onion of delusion peeled off. I saw that everything is still being seen through the self. Everything! It was like being in a house of mirrors -always going back to the self. Every thought, every point of view was through the lens of the self. It was quite a shake up.

Yes, it is good to see how the illusion is operating.

And I kept thinking "I'm making progress. Look how well I am doing." I, I, I. Really humbling.

There is no you to make progress. Humbling for whom?

This is confusing. There is a thought about a choice to be made. Then a choice is made. It seems that the thought makes the choice, but you're right, a thought doesn't do anything. So the choice is made, but not by the thought.

Yes.

Don't know what makes the choice or if there is a choice made or there's just something that happens. I'm not sure about this.
So, there is a lot of confusion here about a lot. Just trying to be with what comes up.

Try this exercise :

So taking a closer look, is it that these voices (thoughts) are controlling these behaviours in any way? Try this out.

Get two foods you like, one that is a 'bad' food, like a piece of chocolate and the other a 'good food,' like a piece of apple. Thoughts might come up while looking at them saying stuff about eating one or the other. Eventually one of them will get eaten first.
Look carefully for any evidence in direct experience to see if those thoughts controlled the behaviour; rather than just guessing and commentating what might happen.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

There is no you to make progress. Humbling for whom?

Yes, exactly. No one to be humbled, no one making progress. It was very clear the other day.

Try this exercise :

So taking a closer look, is it that these voices (thoughts) are controlling these behaviours in any way? Try this out.

Get two foods you like, one that is a 'bad' food, like a piece of chocolate and the other a 'good food,' like a piece of apple. Thoughts might come up while looking at them saying stuff about eating one or the other. Eventually one of them will get eaten first.
Look carefully for any evidence in direct experience to see if those thoughts controlled the behaviour; rather than just guessing and commentating what might happen.

This was a problematic exercise. I am currently on a diet for health reasons so wasn't able to use any "bad" foods because I'm not eating them right now. But I tried two different foods, one that was more appealing than another. I tried this exercise three different times tonight. The first time I just sat with the two different choices in front of me for about 15 minutes and was kind of paralyzed. No choice was able to be made about which food to eat first. So then I tried with dinner between salmon and a sweet potato. The salmon was eaten first, but it's a habit to always eat the protein first and then the starch, so no clarity there. Then after dinner I tried with a cracker with peanut butter on it and some blueberries. I watched the thoughts about the food each time I tried the experiment and it just seemed inconclusive. I don't really know if the thoughts about the food affected the choice. I can try again tomorrow.
Thank you,
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

Yes, exactly. No one to be humbled, no one making progress. It was very clear the other day.

How about now, is there a separate self, Francesca reading these words ?

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
I wanted to let you know what happened this morning. I woke up and had some unpleasant self thoughts and the sensations that go with those kinds of thoughts. And there was the thought -"this is an illusion, this self is not real". And the mood lifted and went away. There was this knowing that was able to uproot the negative self thoughts and feelings. This was so exciting! This felt like the first time this had happened since starting this work. So, thank you so much for your help! It is really starting to make a difference.

How about now, is there a separate self, Francesca reading these words ?

Upon first reading this, it seemed that Francesca was reading the words. Then, looking more closely, it seemed like there was a space in the head between the eyes that was Francesca. Then, observing the space, it was seen that it was only thought that was identifying a Francesca in the space. Then, watching the space, no Francesca could be found. It's still necessary to go through a process of looking very closely to see that Francesca is only thought - it's not immediately known.
I tried the food experiment again today but it seems like the thought about which food to eat first is what prompts the action to make that particular choice. Perhaps it is too subtle to be detected at this point. But there is a lot of excitement and hope here.
Thank you,
(not) Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

I am glad to hear what you said. Continue to look at your daily activities and see how things are happening without you, without a separate self.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
Today the first half of the day I was stuck in illusion of self. It seems that when there is a day of clarity, the next day is the opposite. I was noticing here and there things the body was doing without any sense of control and this evening there was a moment of no self. It was quite noticeable and rather strange, just an absence of self. Hard to describe but definitely real. I will continue to pay attention throughout the day to activities and doership.
Thank you,
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

Yes, there is flip flopping :it is due to tendencies and conditionnings which are still operating. Anyway, I invite other guides to look at your answers. It will eventually take few days. There would be further questions if any.

Best for you

Warissem

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

Here are questions from a guide :

Does the "no-self" is a state where to abide?
Notice in this very moment Is there anyone in the world who knows what you are identifying with?
Why? 🙂
And notice are you this which thoughts say?
Do you know what thoughts say (or maybe thoughts know you ?)
Are you your thoughts?

Answer to each question separately

Best for you

Warissem

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

Questions from a guide, they will help to clarify things, ponder on them :

Are you your fear, trauma, story, feelings...?

Can you point what you are precisely?

Thanks

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
Thank you for reaching out to other guides, I am so appreciative of your efforts to help me.

Does the "no-self" is a state where to abide?

It seems that one is always in actuality abiding in a state of no-self because there isn't a real self. But in terms of actually perceiving that one is living in a state of no-self requires that there are no self thoughts occurring. Or that one observes the self referential thoughts and does not believe them at all. I am still experiencing lots of self thoughts and am not yet seeing that all of them are false. It's just so automatic. But I am able to notice more that that is happening, so that is progress.

Notice in this very moment Is there anyone in the world who knows what you are identifying with?

I don't understand the question very well but will try to answer as best I am able. There is no one else in the world besides "me" who knows what I am identifying with. But one could say that because "I" don't exist, then no one knows what I am identifying with because I as a self don't exist, and no one else exists as a self either. I don't know if I am missing the point of this question. There is a little difficulty in understanding the language used.

And notice are you this which thoughts say?

No, I am not this that thoughts are saying that I am. Thoughts are inventing a self and then referring to that self. But its just an invention.

Do you know what thoughts say (or maybe thoughts know you ?)

At first, it does seem that "I" know what thoughts say. But investigating this, thoughts are being known, but who or what are they known by? They are known in awareness and then automatically believed to be known by "me". This is very useful to become aware of. It is not that "I" am the thinker of the thoughts, but that "I" am the one aware of the thoughts. There is a difference between the two that I had not noticed before.

Are you your thoughts?

No, I am not my thoughts and the thoughts aren't mine, they are just thoughts. However, I have been very affected by thoughts and believed that they were referring to me and supplying information about me. Again, this is very helpful to look at this belief. As there is no self, thoughts about the self can't be true.

Are you your fear, trauma, story, feelings...?

This question brought up emotion and body reactions. Looking at first, I could see immediately the habitual belief that I am the fear, stories, feelings, etc. Feelings are body sensations tied to a thought or thoughts. Stories are thoughts. Fear is also a body sensation in response to certain types of thoughts. So looking more closely, all these experiences are body sensations and thoughts. I am not my body and I am not thoughts. So, only awareness is experiencing all this. This fictitious self that insinuates itself into everything is so insidious and tricky.
I'll post this and then do another post for the last question.
Francesca

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

Can you point what you are precisely?

So I was meditating this evening after having answered the above questions and I was noticing the breath. At one point the heater came on so there was quite a bit of sound associated with the heater and there were a few moments where there was no self and only awareness of the sound and the breath. And there was joy in the experiencing of the sound and the breath and that was what "I" was - just the experiencing of the sound and the breath and it was beautiful. So that felt like what "I" am.
Thank you so much,
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

Other questions from a guide :

In order to believe thoughts, there has to be someone outside of thoughts, who has volition and the ability to believe them or not. What identifies with thoughts (is affected) and believes them?

How is believing different from thoughts just appearing and disappearing?

Best for you

Warissem