Let's do this

[vinceschubert]

Hey Ash, there is a zoom meeting on Sunday that you might find interesting and useful. I'm inviting you..
Third weekend of every month
Saturday 19th Feb 6 pm-8 pm British time,
Sunday, 20th Feb 10 am-12 am British time
You can join both days or one depending on your time zone.
The meetings will be led by Liberation Unleashed guides.
No agenda, no promises or expectations, just being and sharing together.
Here is a link to join
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/3718929853...

vince

[vinceschubert]

Oh, and here is the passcode;
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/3718929853?pw ... BoUUNwUT09

Meeting ID: 371 892 9853
Passcode: HmbSF4\

v

[ashton]

Hey vince, its been some time since getting back to you. I was kind of stalling out and going through a period of not looking, but have since gotten back on the trend for the past few days.

A couple days ago I had this idea to observe as if I was like a newborn baby and has no reference point as to what anything is, and to just take it all in as if I was just put in this body without any subjectivity if you will.

Its been working out pretty good. I cant stay in this perspective for long. Its hard to describe, because I get that none of this is really a perspective, its just seeing as it is, or not lol. I guess what Im saying is, it sort of takes energy and persistance to stay with everything that's unfolding. After several minutes, it just becomes exhausting, and, it is harder to stay with it all. Which is perfectly fine.

But yeah, its been neat doing this, when Im able to stay with whats happening, everything is totally clear. I dont grasp to stay in that sort of hyper witnessing state, but even if I did, that would still be fine haha.

I think it is really just gonna come down to "seat time" if you will of being able to witness it all as it is. With the more seat time, I'll start to naturally see things as they are, and start to go down the 'subtle rabbit hole'. I guess the way I see things now is, its not as much of a "seeing things as they are", but more like "seeing clearly". Idk, sounds different in my head. But it really isnt an out there type of ordeal. The thoughts are still tricky, but not like they were before.

Beforehand it was as if I was looking at a thought with the 5 W's (who what when, etc.) Obviously not literal, but you get the gist. Whereas now it is so much more lax. It isnt really about placing emphasis on the thought, but the actual context of the thought. Not even that, because it is natural. Basically seeing in real time how it pops up out of nowhere.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

'evening Ash,

Basically seeing in real time how it pops up out of nowhere.

You got this.
i still get the feeling that you are either working hard at it or not at all. Relaxed is good. It doesn't take work to see. It does take work to look.
Get into discovery mode instead of seeking mode.
Don't believe anything that mind comes up with. Just allow useful thoughts to be acted on and let the rest just flow through in the background.
Report in a couple of days.

with love

vince

[ashton]

Hey vince. Im pretty excited now since I can tell Im actually making progress, before this I was really stalling. You know what i mean when i say this... lol

Now I am starting to see experientially the interaction between 1. Awareness, 2. Craving/Aversion, and 3. Suffering/Agitation (whatever you want to call it).

Basically, when I am doing sort of miscellaneous or background activities that do not create any sort of craving/aversion, awareness is sort of just 'there'. Some ways I would describe awareness in this sense is: It is centered if you will, soft and not rigid, has a lightness, and is not focused on anything in particular, at least, definitely not rigidly without control so to speak.

It is during periods like this, that there is no suffering or agitation.

But when there is any sort of craving/aversion towards something, awareness becomes RIGID and one-pointed (but not in the nice meditative sense), and seemingly impossible to control (hard to let awareness get off of an object).

Its periods like this where there is suffering/agitation.

I guess on a side note I could also make a connection to the water bottle exercise you had me do. There is a good amount of time when there are no thoughts, the awareness is tranquil and steady, no craving/aversion, and no suffering or agitation.

But then something happens, and thoughts come in, awareness becomes rigid and fixated, foreful, there is craving/aversion, and suffering/agitation.

Ash

[ashton]

Post #2

On a sidenote Id also like to mention how up until this point, those times where there was just tranquility of awareness, and no agitation, were so not looked at. Ironically, it is periods like this where usually there was no mindfulness of this occuring, yet these are the most tranquil, peaceful times of our lives, practically lost.

And same thing, the times where there is agitation, where awareness is so RIGID to our detriment, are the times where we were aware of this suffering. But since this was usually i was mindful about, i never got to be 'aware of' how much tranquility there is throughout the day until now.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash, i am organizing a zoom meetup of the ones that I am guiding at the moment and feel that it would be a good thing for you to sit in on it.
There is no pressure and no expectations. It's an experiment to see what happens.
Organizing a time that suits the varying time zones is the difficult part.
if you are interested let me know and I will get back to you with a time and link. (for joining the meetup)

vince
ps I will respond to your post tomorrow.

[vinceschubert]

'evening Ash,

i never got to be 'aware of' how much tranquility there is throughout the day until now.

Good stuff. The rigid focus that is present when there is suffering/agitation is often described as bodily contraction. There will often be repetitive thoughts at the same time.
The softness that comes with the broader perspective allows an openness that opens up more possibilities. Learning, noticing and lateral thinking. It has a joy about it.
You are getting it. Good stuff.

with love

vince

[ashton]

Hey vince,

All in all, havent noticed anything else since then. My new job is pretty demanding and we have some long days where Im incredibly tired by the time I get home lol, so I havent had much of a chance to tune in at all. Im thinking once I start to get good at this line of work, Ill be able to do it a little more subconsciously so then I may be able to do this stuff during some easier periods of work. Ill try and look some more tonight since today was an easier day and im not exhausted haha. You get the zoom thing working?

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Look for PM re Sunday meetup

v

[vinceschubert]

check for PM

v

[ashton]

Hey vince. I haven't focused or pursued any of this stuff in quite some time, but I just started meditating again yesterday or 2 nights ago.

Anyways, I've also started woodworking a little bit ago with hand tools only. You can watch someone hand saw and try to replicate it, but it's nearly impossible if you don't know the fundamentals: keeping your entire arm in one line, correct grip and stance, watching the mirror in the saw plate to know you're cutting perpindicular, etc.

Basically, whenever it comes to 'life' stuff, ive always made an effort to learn the fundamentals of a given thing vs just trying to replicate the result. Fundamentals come first, then the results come. If you chase after the result of sawing a straight line in a board, you're only going to be correcting for that 1 board. You train on the fundamentals, and all boards can be cut perfectly, and diagnosis becomes easy.

So now that I've come back to meditating, I thought that I should apply that same philosophy.

This time while meditating, I began by diving in with the premise of sort of finding out what fundamentals there sort of 'are' with meditation.

I found two things:
1. Stay in the moment
2. Utilize Zero to Minimal Meta-Awareness

It's not always achievable, but I think it's a fundamental that can be trained.

Some things I noticed when this occurs is that stillness/quiet comes. More importantly, when there is this zero meta awareness, there's no anything abstract, but only when meta awareness is present do all of these abstract things come alive.

Only experienced this just 5min ago meditating. Will likely just have to experience it more. But I realized, its not about searching for no-self or anything, but where it resides. And its not really even a searching at that, its more or less just coming to notice

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

I realized, its not about searching for no-self or anything, but where it resides. And its not really even a searching at that, its more or less just coming to notice

Yes, this is good.
If you look and don't find a self, there's no need to look again. Just as you look in the refrigerator for milk, if you find none then there's no need to look again. You know that you won't find it.
So rather than look repeatedly for what is not there, look for what is there.
Do you find a story about Ashton? Do you find beliefs about Ashton's characteristics? His preferences and aversions?
If you do, then do you recognize that there is constant reference to these and responses to them?
Could that be what promotes a SENSE of self?

vince

[ashton]

Basically this is where I'm at:

There's two modes of living, you're always in 1 of them only, and they are basically like states if you will:
1. No meta-awareness in present experience
2. Meta-awareness in present experience

What I mean by this:
When there is this "meta-awareness", there is this Relation of Things going on. When there is not this "meta-awareness", there is no Relation of Things.

When there is no meta-awareness going on, there is just experience, such as physical feelings. But there is no relating OF any aspect of your experience. It is just a raw sensationalist form of experience. No this' or that's. No I. Just sensations.

But then there is the other form of experience, where meta-awareness is present. When meta-awareness ARISES, relating OF things automatically happens. There is still the sensationalist experience, but now with an ADDED layer- relating all of it. This is where objects come into being, naturally (or perception of objects). I'd say it would be correct to word it as number 2, as the perception of I/this/that is non-existant when there is no meta-awareness, but I can see where someone could resonate with number 1.
1. I/this/that comes into being OR
2. The perception of I/this/that comes into being

Most of my experience, and I'm sure many others experience are made up of meta-awareness a large portion of the time.

To answer your question about what promotes a SENSE of self:

At the most basic, fundamental point, it is what I said- when your experience shifts into this meta-awareness 'state', the perception, or as you put it, sense of self comes into being.

What's interesting is before all of this, I just figured there'd be no-self, ever. But that's not really the case. I mean, it can be argued. But there is definitely a perception of self that makes up most of our daily experience. But that is the fine line. There is perception of self in the meta-awareness state, but that is as far as it goes- perception of self.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ashton,

There is perception of self in the meta-awareness state, but that is as far as it goes- perception of self.

Is this another way of saying that the SENSE of self occurs and is SEEN to be happening but no identification accompanies it?
Is this something that you experience?

with love

vince