Confused about self inquiry

[Vivien]

All right. If the fear shows up again, please come back to my previous post and investigate it.

for now, we go back investigating the notion of control.

Lie down onto a bed. Observer very carefully how the decision arises to get up.

Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from?
What makes the body get up?
Is there an ‘I’ that commands the body?
When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?

Repeat this with sitting in a chair. Describe in detail the decision of standing up.

How does the decision happen exactly?
Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?
Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?
What makes the body to stand up?

Now let’s investigate intention.
Sit in a chair and observe how the intention of standing up happens.

How is it known that there is an intention to stand up?
While sitting there, say internally several times ‘I intend to get up’. What happens?
What is it that made the intention to get up?

V

[Danadd]

The decision to stand up wasn’t really made. I just kind of got up. I repeated several times “I’m getting up” and “I intend to get up” but I didn’t. And then it just happened. It doesn’t seem like there’s a thought that decides or an intention I can put my finger on… it’s quite mysterious!
There was one time when I said “I intend on getting up” and I did. But it wasn’t like my saying it was what made it happen, I’m pretty sure.

Okay, I just did it again to see. Yah, I don’t see really that it’s that sentence, and me saying it which makes me get up. Because I don’t get up even though the sentence is said many times.

But also, I wouldn’t have done this if I hadn’t read your message. There is a cause and effect.

[Vivien]

I would like to ask you to redo the exercise and this time please reply to each question one-by-one. when you bulk reply it's easy to miss some important pointers.

Thank you,
V

[Danadd]

Hey,
Sorry for the delay. I’m on it though I just want to spend some more time with it and make sure I give it enough attention.
Thanks,
Dana

[Vivien]

that's good. Please be thorough. :)

Have a nice day,
V

[Danadd]

Can a self be found making the body leave the bed

No, its just a body getting up it seems.

Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from?

From nowhere. It just appears.

What makes the body get up?

There are thoughts before about getting up but it doesn’t happen. The actual moment of the body getting up seems to just happen without a decision even.

Is there an ‘I’ that commands the body?

No. While I’m lying there are thoughts and even intention but it doesn’t do anything. Maybe that’s intention, I don’t know. But there is no self making the body get up.

When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?

No it doesn’t. I tried alsocounting and saying “I’m getting up in 3,2,1.” Sometimes I stopped counting at 2 and nothing happened. One time I said “okay I’m really going to get up now. “3,2,1.” And I got up on the 2. It doesn’t seem like there’s a clear connection. But here it seems that the fact that I really decided, is what made me get up that time. The intention. On the other hand, I got up on the 2 when that wasn’t as planned. So It’s like the body did it by itself on the other hand.

Repeat this with sitting in a chair. Describe in detail the decision of standing up.

How does the decision happen exactly?

I sit in a chair and sometimes repeat “get up” in my head. Then one of the times, not really connected to what I say exactly, I get up. It just happens pretty spontaneously.

Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?

There are some thoughts mostly about that I don’t want to get up, and some like I mentioned “I’m getting up NOW”. But it doesn’t happen when those thoughts arise. Only occasionally I got up when my thought said to get up.
There is no self that decides to get up. There are just thoughts that influence the body but aren’t directly linked.

Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?

It just happens, yes.

[Danadd]

(Accidentally pressed submit so I’m continuing).

What makes the body to stand up?

In that specific moment when it gets up, it seems that nothing. I assume that it’s connected to the instructions you gave me, which made me sit and do the exercise, and have thoughts about getting up. But in the exact moment it happens its spontaneous.

Now let’s investigate intention.
Sit in a chair and observe how the intention of standing up happens.

How is it known that there is an intention to stand up?

This is a bit confusing. I don’t know. There are thoughts that say “I intend to get up”. But sometimes nothing happens. Then the moment I get up, nothing happened to make that happen. The intention is during the action of getting up it seems. There is no intention before which causes it. That’s most of the time. But there was once when I thought “I intend to get up” and this time is was “more serious” and I did get up. So it confuses me. But most of the time I can’t find intention.

While sitting there, say internally several times ‘I intend to get up’. What happens?

As I mentioned, most of the time nothing other than once. That one time, I thought that and meant it more I think. But there are others times when it feels like I mean it but nothing happens.

What is it that made the intention to get up?

I can’t really find intention. But I think it’s just a thought. I had a moment when it was pretty clear. I had thoughts “I intend on getting up” over and over. And I noticed that there was no one saying those thoughts, they talked about someone like someone is saying them but when I tried to see who was talking I saw they’re empty and are just thoughts.

~Dana

[Vivien]

Thank you for your replies. I would like to ask you to repeat the exercise again, but this time investigate these:

But there was once when I thought “I intend to get up” and this time is was “more serious” and I did get up. So it confuses me

so make a very firm intention to get up. Are you actually doing it? Are you the one making / creating / thinking that firm intention? Or even this firm intention-thought is just happening on its own?


Now, zoom onto the intention (of getting up) very closely. Look at the intention itself directly.
Stare at the intention itself. Not the thoughts of “I intend to get up”, but THE intention itself.

Can you locate THE intention itself?
How the intention is actually experienced?
Please spend a whole day investigating this again and again.

V

[Danadd]

so make a very firm intention to get up. Are you actually doing it? Are you the one making / creating / thinking that firm intention? Or even this firm intention-thought is just happening on its own?

Yes that thought happens by itself.

Can you locate THE intention itself?
How the intention is actually experienced?

I can’t find the intention. All I find is thoughts like I mentioned above, and then the actual moving of my body. The intention is the action itself or happens while the action is happening. It’s not like intention is separate and there’s a decision to do it and intention. From what I can see.

Thank you,
Dana

[Vivien]

All right. Now here is a different exercise about intention.

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?

Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully
Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?

How exactly the decision is made?

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)

What is it that performed the chosen action?

Love,
V

[Danadd]

I’m not sure if you still want me to reply to each question because they are all similar.
When I looked at the chocolate, and then the ice cream (i tried it twice) then thoughts started to appear, measuring pros and cons as you said. I noticed how there was no control over the thoughts or decision of what to think, what to think next. Just a sequence of thoughts appearing one after the other by themselves. No one was making them appear. The decision to (obviously) eat it was just another thought in the series that suddenly popped up. There was nobody deciding this. It’s becoming clearer.
Then the decision was made and stayed that way for a few moments. And without any thought even, my hand took the ice cream spoon and ate. No one was there to make the decision to do that. I saw it for a moment how it’s all a series of cause and effect and no one really who is in control, no one at all, there.
Have a great day,
Dana

[Vivien]

Nice inquiry :)

I’m not sure if you still want me to reply to each question because they are all similar.

Well, it can be always useful to look with every single pointer, even if they seems to be similar. They target the same thing but from a slightly different angle. What I've found that even just changing one word can make a different and reveal more. For example, it was particularly useful for me in my own inquiry to use different words and look them one by one many-many times, like this:

Is there an experiencer (of this experiencer)?
Is there a knower?
Is there a perceiver?

They all target the same thing, and yet they can bring different results.

so look at the display in front of you, and inquire:

Where is the experiencer of it?
Where is the knower of it?
Where is the perceiver of it?
Where is the seer?
Where is the looker?

Please make sure you spend about 10 minutes with each question separately.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[Danadd]

Hey, still working on it :)

[Danadd]

Hey Vivien,
I’m having trouble with this exercise. I don’t know how to look or what I do when I try to look for the answer. Its confusing.

[Vivien]

Ok, let's be more specific.

Look at an object, like a cup. We usually think and believe that " I see the cup".
there is the object, the cup, which is seen by a seer, I/me.
So look for the seer of the cup.

Is there a seer of the cup? Or there is only the cup seen/known, only seeing happening, but without an entity seeing it?

Now put your hand onto the table, close your eyes, and feel the contact area.
Normally we believe that "I feel the table".

but is there a feeler of the table? Or there is just feeling happening, but no feeler?

Now listen to a sound.
The sound is present, but is there a hearer?
Someone/something hearing it? Or there is only the sound heard, without an entity hearing it?

It's like rain. Is there a rainer of the rain, or there is only raining happening?
Or is there a blower of the wind? Or just winding happening?
Is there a waver of the sea, or only waving happening?

I hope it helps,
Vivien