The Gate

Hi Chris,

Please do the exercise again, but this time focus on these questions:

The thoughts themselves consider the options.
The thoughts just appear, and kinda battle each other, or reason with each other.

Are you sure that thoughts themselves are considering the options, OR just thoughts appear ABOUT options?

Can you see the difference between the two?

So basically it (the thought) compares itself to another thought and kinda 'weighs itself up' against the other thought. As if it were finding what is the balance.

You are talking about thoughts as if they were real entities, battling with each other? Is this so?

No, it was like the thought itself 'made the decision'.

Please look again.

Are thoughts living entities who have power to make decisions?

From observation, it was movement that performed the action of putting the chocolate back in the drawer.

Movement? Movement performed the action?
Is this ‘movement’ an entity who could perform an action?

Vivien

Hi Vivien

Are you sure that thoughts themselves are considering the options, OR just thoughts appear ABOUT options?

It seems like thoughts consider the options, which is of course speculation. I was trying to illustrate here how the illusion functions.
So, thoughts appear about options, but it has the illusion of being a decision-making process (carried out by a self), because of the way things are 'weighed' up.

Can you see the difference between the two?

Yes. The latter is much more simple - much more Direct Experience. The former is a description of how the illusion makes it look as if there is something 'considering' something.

You are talking about thoughts as if they were real entities, battling with each other? Is this so?

No, in reality they are not. But it looks that way, because of the illusion created by them.

Are thoughts living entities who have power to make decisions?

No, they exist only in the realm of imagination. And there isn't actually a 'decision' being made.

Movement? Movement performed the action?
Is this ‘movement’ an entity who could perform an action?

No, not an entity. Just a happening.

Chris

Hi Chris,

No, in reality they are not. But it looks that way, because of the illusion created by them.

What is creating the illusion of a chooser?

This is not a trick questions :) this actually can be seen in experience.

So, thoughts appear about options, but it has the illusion of being a decision-making process (carried out by a self), because of the way things are 'weighed' up.

The same question:

What is creating the illusion of ‘decision-making being carried out by a self’?

Please look very thoroughly.

Vivien

Hi Vivien

What is creating the illusion of a chooser?

The thoughts have the effect of an illusion. But there isn't anything that can be found that is creating it. The thoughts just appear.

What is creating the illusion of ‘decision-making being carried out by a self’?

There isn't anything creating it that can be found.

Chris

Hi Chris,

The thoughts have the effect of an illusion. But there isn't anything that can be found that is creating it. The thoughts just appear.

Yes, great looking :) Let’s look into this a bit more, just to make sure that everything is super clear.

Lie down onto a bed. Observer very carefully how the decision arises to get up.

Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from?
What makes the body get up?
Is there a ‘you’ that commands the body?
When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?

Repeat this with sitting in a chair. Describe in detail the decision of standing up.

How does the decision happen exactly?
Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?
Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?
What makes the body to stand up?

Now let’s investigate intention.
Sit in a chair and observe how the intention of standing up happens.

How is it known that there is an intention to stand up?
While sitting there, say internally several times ‘I intend to get up’. What happens?
What is it that made the intention to get up?

Now, zoom onto the intention (of getting up) very closely. Look at the intention itself directly.
Stare at the intention itself. Not the thoughts of “I intend to get up”, but THE intention itself.

Can you locate THE intention itself?
How the intention is actually experienced?

Vivien

Ok Vivien, just gonna need a little longer to look at this. Will reply soon...

Chris

Hi Vivien

Lie down onto a bed. Observer very carefully how the decision arises to get up.

Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from?
What makes the body get up?
Is there a ‘you’ that commands the body?
When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?

There isn't a self that can be found making the body do it. There isn't anywhere that the decision or command comes from. The body just 'gets up' And there isn't a 'me' commanding the body.
Shouting internally doesn't appear to be related to the actual act of getting up (now, you're gonna say this is speculation, of course).
But I cannot see any evidence that the internal voice results in the body automatically getting up.

Repeat this with sitting in a chair. Describe in detail the decision of standing up.

How does the decision happen exactly?
Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?
Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?
What makes the body to stand up?

There isn't a decision that can be observed, and a self doesn't come in and take over. The standing up happens on its own, without a doer. The standing up process.... just 'stands up'.

Now let’s investigate intention.
Sit in a chair and observe how the intention of standing up happens.
How is it known that there is an intention to stand up?
While sitting there, say internally several times ‘I intend to get up’. What happens?
What is it that made the intention to get up?

It is known, but I cannot say how it is known. It is different from just sitting there reading a book for example.
Saying it internally doesn't result in the actual standing up. (All that happens is I'm reminded of a similar exercise I did last year with another non-duality practitioner. It is familiar to me, this exercise).
Nothing that 'made' the intention to get up, that can be found.

Now, zoom onto the intention (of getting up) very closely. Look at the intention itself directly.
Stare at the intention itself. Not the thoughts of “I intend to get up”, but THE intention itself.
Can you locate THE intention itself?
How the intention is actually experienced?

Right, zooming in...
There is some activity in the head, like a tightening of muscle in the face, at the same time as the standing up begins.
I can't say if it can be said to be an 'intention'.
But there is activity present. There is awareness of activity.
There is definitely awareness that I am seeing.
Now, before you say I sound like I am saying there are little men inside, holding puppet strings....I have said nothing of the sort.
I have simply said that awareness is present. Knowing is present - knowing of when the standing up will happen.
Not a knower, or an awareness-er.
But knowing and awareness.

Chris

Hi Chris,

You did a great looking :)

Is there any doubt about the lack of controller/chooser/decider?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?

If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

Vivien

Hi Vivien

You did a great looking :)

Well, thank you :)

Is there any doubt about the lack of controller/chooser/decider?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?

No there isn't doubt over the lack of a controller, chooser, decider. It is totally clear.
It is totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will - but it feels strange to say that.
In direct observation, these things can't be found.
But I will keep looking anyway. I am still doing this in daily life - just every now and then, checking and looking.

But something is there (intelligent awareness). It's frustrating that we can't move onto that. As we talk a lot about looking at what can't be found/seen....but not so much about what can be.

Anyway thanks for your ongoing help and assistance. Appreciate it.

Chris

Hi Chris,

But I will keep looking anyway. I am still doing this in daily life - just every now and then, checking and looking.

Great, just keep doing that. The more you look in daily life, the better.

It is totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will - but it feels strange to say that.

It’s strange, since this seeing is in contrast with the beliefs you had in your whole life about it.

But something is there (intelligent awareness). It's frustrating that we can't move onto that. As we talk a lot about looking at what can't be found/seen....but not so much about what can be.

Now, we can move onto the topic of awareness :)

You wrote in your previous post:

I have simply said that awareness is present. Knowing is present - knowing of when the standing up will happen.
Not a knower, or an awareness-er.
But knowing and awareness.

Is this knowing or aware-ing is something separate from what is being known/aware-d?

Vivien

Hi Vivien

Now, we can move onto the topic of awareness :)

Ah, that's good.

Is this knowing or aware-ing is something separate from what is being known/aware-d?

It appears that they go together. But I'm speculating a bit.

How do I look at this?

It's quite a difficult 'looking' to carry out. Tricky, this one...

Chris

Hi Chris,

It appears that they go together. But I'm speculating a bit.

Yes, it’s just a speculation.

Is there a thought + the awareness of it?
Where does the thought end and the awareness of it starts?
Where is the dividing line between the thought and the awareness of it?

Vivien

Hi Vivien

Yes, it’s just a speculation.

Yep, agreed. Speculation is no good. It's not gonna get us there :)

Is there a thought + the awareness of it?
Where does the thought end and the awareness of it starts?
Where is the dividing line between the thought and the awareness of it?

Great questions...
The 'awareness of it' isn't an actual thought.
There are body sensations present, around 'the decision', as described earlier.
There is the movement (physically - of the action I'm going to take, or am taking).
There can be thoughts. But there's no dividing line between any of it. It all flows seemlessly.

There was some 'seeing' here. But only fleetingly.

It's a pleasant exercise to do. More enjoyable/relaxing than the previous exercises about the decision-maker/controller.

Hold on - there's a union here for the first time between the real and imagined?! Oneness. Of course this is speculation so you can ignore it - but it feels interesting :)

Chris

Hi Chris,

I’m not sure… maybe you misunderstood the exercise.

So, just sit for a while, and observe as thoughts coming and going.
When a thought is present, investigate:

This thought is present. It’s there.
But WHERE is the ‘knowing of it’?

Where does this thought end and the awareness of it start?

Can you separate this thought from the knowing of it?

Try to peel off the thought from the awareness of it, and then put the thought at left, and the awareness of it to the right. Can you do that?

Can you observe both the thought (at the left) and the awareness of it (on the right)? Are there both there?

Vivien

Hi Vivien

I’m not sure… maybe you misunderstood the exercise.

Yes, I think so...

This thought is present. It’s there.
But WHERE is the ‘knowing of it’?

Where does this thought end and the awareness of it start?

Can you separate this thought from the knowing of it?

There's no location to it.
The thought and the awareness of it are at the same time.
There's no location to them....yet they are in the same place/same time. Cannot separate the thought from the knowing of the thought.

Try to peel off the thought from the awareness of it, and then put the thought at left, and the awareness of it to the right. Can you do that?

Can you observe both the thought (at the left) and the awareness of it (on the right)? Are there both there?

No they can't be split, not in my observation. When I put the thought on the left the awareness of it goes to the left too.

Chris