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Re: hide and seek

Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:17 am
by Vivien
Hi Forestfriend,
We wouldn’t. You are right, thoughts can point to actual happenings sometimes.
Certain thoughts point directly to the experience, like the word ‘sensation’ or ‘there is sound present’.
But most thoughts doesn’t point directly to the experience, but rather to further thoughts ABOUT experience.

What we do here is that we have a look what is there without thoughts, and then we use thoughts/words to describe the experience as precisely as we can without adding anything extra.

We are trying to use a langue that points directly to experience, and not to further thoughts about the experience.
Can you see the difference?
Seeking after ‘states’ is a fierce habit of mine and I’m not surprised those ideas are still appearing.
When you catch yourself seeking after a state, stop and look:

What is it that is unhappy with what is? - find the unhappy one

What is it that wants a different state than what currently IS?


Look for the self again and again. Look hundreds of times for the one that is seeking a state. Let me know what you find.


Vivien

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:37 am
by Forestfriend
Hi Vivien
We are trying to use a langue that points directly to experience, and not to further thoughts about the experience.
Can you see the difference?
Yes.
When you catch yourself seeking after a state, stop and look:
What is it that is unhappy with what is? - find the unhappy one
Looking for the unhappy one finds nothing but a fading thought and a sensation that could be combined with just about any thought.
What is it that wants a different state than what currently IS?
It’s a thought that holds an image of a self enjoying a state other than the present one.
Look for the self again and again. Look hundreds of times for the one that is seeking a state. Let me know what you find.
It’s the way to find an image of the ‘self’. It’s always the idea of self that is pictured as being in a different state. This noticing of the image of self in desires for feeling differently is ongoing. It crops up continually. It might take a few days to get up to hundreds of sightings.

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 4:51 am
by Vivien
Hi Forestfriend,
It’s the way to find an image of the ‘self’. It’s always the idea of self that is pictured as being in a different state. This noticing of the image of self in desires for feeling differently is ongoing. It crops up continually. It might take a few days to get up to hundreds of sightings.
All right, then look again and again and again.

Also look at these:

What is the problem with this present moment?

Why should this moment be different?

Is there anything resisting this moment?
Where is the resistER?

Is there anything desiring this moment to be different?
Where is the desirER?

What is the point in wanting this moment be different if there is no self who/what could benefit from it?


Vivien

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:43 am
by Forestfriend
What is the problem with this present moment?
No problem. If looked at there is no problem, just unperturbed
sensation.
Why should this moment be different?
There is no reason that this moment should be different. There are sometimes thoughts that there is something wrong with this moment, but those are only thoughts.
Is there anything resisting this moment?


Jumbled thoughts, hints of complaints. When examined they tumble away.

Where is the resistER?
There is no resister so it can’t be anywhere.
Is there anything desiring this moment to be different?
There is a hint, an edge of seeking some improvement in this moment.
Thoughts not organized because they won’t be believed.
Where is the desirER?
There is no desirer. Only thoughts at times that are seen to represent nothing.
What is the point in wanting this moment be different if there is no self who/what could benefit from it?
That’s it. Only the nonexistent ‘self’ could be thought to benefit from some difference.

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:17 am
by Vivien
Hi Forestfriend,
Everything (every action) "raises" a thought that the doer or the one sensing things, "Me", is inside this body. Thoughts say that it is inside the body and it is the body itself, human. Still, no matter what I do, I can't point where that "me" is. I also can't identify what this "me" is.
So thoughts are constantly inferring a me, but does this me actually exist?

Hass the ‘me’ ever been anything else than an inference? A phantasy? A speculation? A fiction?

What is experiencing this experience right now?


Vivien

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 3:54 am
by Forestfriend
Hi Vivien,
So thoughts are constantly inferring a me, but does this me actually exist?
No, it doesn’t exist.
Has the ‘me’ ever been anything else than an inference? A phantasy? A speculation? A fiction?
No, never. Inferred by language, taught by culture.
What is experiencing this experience right now?
Life-ing, be-ing, know-ing, aware-ing.

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:23 am
by Vivien
Hi Forestfriend,
V: What is experiencing this experience right now?
F: Life-ing, be-ing, know-ing, aware-ing.
Are you sure about this? Is this really the case?

What is the experience of life-ing experiencing this experience?
What is the experience of aware-ing experiencing this experience?


Saying that aware-ing or knowing is experiencing this experience is no different than saying that awareness is experiencing the experience. Can you see this?

How is it known that awareness / aware-ing / knowing / being is experiencing?

Is there an ACTUAL awareness / aware-ing / knowing / being / life-ing doing the experiencing?
If yes, WHERE is it?


Vivien

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:43 am
by Forestfriend
Hi Vivien,
V: What is experiencing this experience right now?
F: Life-ing, be-ing, know-ing, aware-ing.
are you sure about this? Is this really the case?
No. Nothing is experiencing this experience. If something must be named, it will not be real, but thought.
What is the experience of life-ing experiencing this experience?
What is the experience of aware-ing experiencing this experience?
If there are words to describe these I do not know what they are. I have no way to describe experience without adding something to it that isn’t it.
Saying that aware-ing or knowing is experiencing this experience is no different than saying that awareness is experiencing the experience. Can you see this?
Yes. Whatever word I use or invent just brings to light another ‘self’.Thoughts/words are not adequate to describe anything. So awareness is another ‘self’ and not experiencing anything and no word I can write is going to name what comes before names.
How is it known that awareness / aware-ing / knowing / being is experiencing?
Nothing is known. Knowing is thought that comes after experience and only refers to it.
Is there an ACTUAL awareness / aware-ing / knowing / being / life-ing doing the experiencing?
If yes, WHERE is it?
So by putting it this way I’ve conjured up another sort of ‘self’—an “aware-ing” doing something—and doing something here. Something is happening and I will never know what it is. Any name or location I give it will not identify it but only separate from it. Anything secondary to raw unclassified sensation is intellect and words and can’t express anything actual.

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:59 am
by Vivien
Hi Forestfriend,
No. Nothing is experiencing this experience. If something must be named, it will not be real, but thought.
How do does it FEEL to see that there is no experiencer to which experience is happen to?

Has there been any shift in perspective, even if it didn’t last?
If yes, could you please write a bit about it?

What has changed since the start of conversation, what hasn’t? – please talk about your feelings
What is the difference in how you FEEL?

Has it been seen experientially that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?

Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?


Vivien

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:00 am
by Forestfriend
Hi Vivien,
How do does it FEEL to see that there is no experiencer to which experience is happen to?


Feeling is thought added to sensation. Ignoring the thought leaves the sensation alone, and the sensation is quite random, like a sensation that could be labeled fear could also be labeled excitement, or sadness. So feelings have lost their believability as guides. When feelings are looked at they pass away quickly. Thoughts identify a ‘self’ that has pleasure and pain, good feelings and bad ones. When the ‘self’ is not believed, feelings don’t have a resting place.
Has there been any shift in perspective, even if it didn’t last?
If yes, could you please write a bit about it?
Not thinking of myself as anything, just watching what happens and watching the response. Before I had to achieve and understand.
There is more time between thoughts and more noticing of color and sensation and sound. Ego slights are not taken seriously and patience is expanded.
What has changed since the start of conversation, what hasn’t? – please talk about your feelings
So there is less pain and less pleasure of the self-ish variety (I did something good, right, etc.). There is a bit more pleasure in colors, textures, scents, sounds, sensation. The pity for the ‘self’ in pain is much less, so physical pains are not dwelled upon and have lost importance. Judgements of the behavior of others is much less. Panic attacks usually dissolve rapidly rather than lingering for a long time. Worries give way to acceptance. Acceptance is different because it doesn’t have an “Oh, I can love this too.” aspect. It is very plain like “This is what is and it’s interesting.”

The same thoughts as before appear, but at a slower rate. Same reactions to things and events are there, but noticed as being reactions rather than fact. The same escape fantasies appear. The same relationships are there and the same responses to those relationships, but responses are seen to be uncontrolled and part of a whole picture, rather than something ‘I’ choose and am responsible for.
What is the difference in how you FEEL?
‘I’ don’t really feel. There are thoughts and sensations. The thought of fear, for example, links with an idea of tension in a heart and churning in a belly, but this doesn’t make it true. Other thoughts and sensations quickly follow so the “feeling” isn’t lasting the way it used to, and it isn’t believed or pondered as something to figure out and understand, just a passing thought/sensation. Positive thoughts linked with sensations interpreted as feelings like liking or happy are also quick to pass.
Has it been seen experientially that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Yes.
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
No.
Is there a ‘doer’ of any kind which performs activities and movements?
No.
Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
No.
Do others have responsibilities?
No. There is no ‘I’ that can be responsible for anything. Others are one more idea.
Is there a self that is inside the body, perceiving a world that is outside?
No.
Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
No.
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?
No.

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:14 am
by Vivien
Hi Forestfriend,

Thank you for answering the questions. I’m going to give you the same set of questions I asked before. Please reply to them as if this were the first time commenting on them.

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?


Please don't forget to give examples where asked.

Vivien

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:28 am
by Forestfriend
Hi Vivien,
Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
No. The ‘self’ is the content of thoughts. It is not real, but imaginary.
Was there ever?
No. It was not there at birth. The idea was instilled by parents and culture.
Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.


The separate self starts in early childhood as we learn language and as we are held responsible by others for our actions, preferences and beliefs. We learn to refer to ourselves with pronouns, I, me, and others as you and we learn that our name is attached to one body that is considered ours. We are taught that we must learn and achieve many things that we attach to the name and body and classify as characteristics of our separate self. The fiction is in place at an early age (3?) And it is supported by the whole human culture. This common belief and constant habit is very entrenched. Whatever happens is claimed by the idea of a separate self by the belief, “I did this.” Or “This happened to me.” Or “You did this to me.” Thinking like this the story of the separate self is maintained.
Describe it fully as you see it now.


Something is happening. There is no way to describe it without forming a crevice for the separate self to cling to. Language is a fog over reality—always one step removed. Thought, color, sound, sensation happen. There is nothing I do or don’t do to cause or stop these. Only the content of thought has stories about causality and responsibility and the content of thought is only words that may or may not refer to something that actually exists. Most of the content of thought is only words referring to fictitious stories formed by words. It is not necessary to believe the fictitious stories, in fact it is not possible to believe them.
How does it feel to see this?


Feeling is thought combined with sensation and refers to an ‘I’ that feels something, like for example, a physical contraction combined with a thought of “not able enough” called sadness. Seeing this is seeing behind thought—no story there, and experiencing sensations that are undefined. Everything just is as it is, no how comes into play.
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days
.

The family doesn’t notice a difference. Speech hasn’t changed much, actions haven’t changed much, but what is believed has changed. It was not believed that ‘I’ was guilty for putting too much food in the refrigerator. That comes from thoughts that ‘I’ am responsible for the irritation of others, or that ‘I’ even could make the decision to buy the food in the first place. It is not believed that ‘I’ cannot tolerate all the dirt on the floor. That comes from thoughts of past training. It was not believed that ‘I’ was guilty for hiding from the neighbor, just noticed that a response had been made. When the situation calls for a decision no decision is made, just watching and seeing what happens.

.
What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?


Seeing how easily a word that seems to describe experience, like ‘awareness’, can be used by thought to project the illusion of a ‘self’.
Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
It just happens. Decision, intention, free-will and control are concepts, ideas, the content of thought—not necessarily real. They tend to need an ‘I’ or ‘me’ or ‘you’ to take ownership of them. An attempt to find ‘How’ can only produce ideas and stories not truth. How is just what is happening, there can be no explanation beyond that.
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
Things happen. There is recently a noticing that ‘I’ do not lay claim to them. They happen by themselves.‘I’ do not cause them, nor can a non existent ‘I’ make a right or wrong response within what is happening. Noticing can happen. Thoughts can come up that evaluate happenings, but ‘I’ is not needed to plan for changes, or suffer or enjoy outcomes. Things are done without decisions being made to do them, and outcomes are noticed and accepted just as they are. There is interaction between the lives and surroundings of this moment and that is the happening. No one is the cause of any of it, it is a spontaneous event of all that is at this moment.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.
‘I’ am not responsible for anything. Whatever happens happens.
Example: Color experience occurs, thoughts= Lungi. “Lungi is dry. Fold and bring in lungi. What if I don’t. It can stay there all day. See what happens. Body brings in and folds lungi. Response to previous habit.” ‘I’ am not responsible, but there is response-ability. Things happen and get responded to from reaction between present happenings and from earlier training and habit. Conversations happen just as before, but it is possible for them to end where they stop and not have details fretted over for time periods extending afterwards since neither ‘I’ nor anyone else is responsible for what is said.
Anything to add?
Thank you for persevering through all of this back and forth.

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:38 am
by Vivien
Hi Forestfriend,
Thank you for persevering through all of this back and forth.
You are very welcome :)

Thank you for your responses. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a day or so. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

If there are no further questions, I will let you know and you will then be invited to the LU FB groups.

Vivien

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:07 am
by Vivien
Hi Forestfriend,

One of the guides has some questions for you.

Please pinpoint where you felt you had the shift from intellectual understanding to the knowing (which is a feeling) that there is no separate self within this dialogue?

How does it feel to see that there is no separate self. Does it feel lighter, heavier, freer...what?


Vivien

Re: hide and seek

Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 5:05 am
by Forestfriend
Hi Vivien,
Please pinpoint where you felt you had the shift from intellectual understanding to the knowing (which is a feeling) that there is no separate self within this dialogue?
That feeling of pause, spaciousness, emptiness, peace, no need, appeared regularly in moments early in the process, but the expectation of achieving a more or less permanent state of release kept negating the experience. Yesterday I wrote that the shift came about seeing that words like awareness, witnessing etc could become substitutes for another version of ‘self’—me doing something, and that is so, but I forgot to mention how much my expectations were keeping the ‘self’ in place by desiring the seeing of no self to produce some awesome and constant state.
How does it feel to see that there is no separate self. Does it feel lighter, heavier, freer…what?
It feels simple and empty, peaceful, a gap between thoughts, open to what comes without expectation. There is no effort. Everything is being done.

Thanks for following through on this.