Not sure if I have crossed the gate

[forgetmenot]

Hey Z!

How would what IS/THIS be different to what it IS/THIS? It would like saying a chameleon has become something different because it changes its colour. It still remains a chameleon no matter how many times it changes colour!

Love this example of the chameleon changing color, and it is always the chameleon. So any appearing difference is a thought saying that because its always the chameleon. Rupert Spira has a example also of the screen, that the images change, but the screen is the same, and really the images are the screen, a modulation of the screen.... like the chamelon modulating its color but its always the chameleon! lol

Rupert has some great analogies and metaphors, as well as some wonderful pointers! But to be clear, there would have to be a 'you' that is separate to experience to know that there are differences. And there is no separation in any shape or form.

Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?

To be honest, theres still the yo-yo effect, zooming in and out of the movie thats going on, then some identification occurs, like for example the exercise we did about being others, how do I know theres others, etc, this happens during identification, but then I remember what we explored here and I read trough some of the notes I have collected, and the confusion ends. Still it seems very real sometimes, dealing with others, and getting sucked in their narratives, and possible outcomes, etc, but then I read amd remember, even that where was 5 minutes ago? things like that... etc... keeping these notes and reading them have helped a lot.

And this is simply part of the story that SEEMS to be happening on the screen. But isn't it interesting how the zooming in and out does itself?

Have you noticed, that even though there SEEMS to be re-identification happening…that you are still aware of everything that is happening? Have you noticed that ‘zooming out’ also just happens on its own? Can you control what attention is focussed on? So, for a period of time, it seems the focus is on some THING called a ‘self’, but when you break that down into AE…the focus is simply on thought about a me!

The yo-yoing affect will continue happening, until it doesn’t. And what I mean by that…is that when the ‘zooming out’ happens, it won’t matter that ‘you’ have zoomed in…because there is a knowing that it is simply a play within the dream itself. THIS/experience appears as the concept of zooming in and out as well as every thing else in the dream.

Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?

I can, more and more... But then the yo-yoing kicks in, and that makes me think that maybe this realization is not complete, or maybe this is as good as it gets lol and theres a expectation there that this realization has to have a certain look and feel to it....I know this is thought talking, but wanted to say this.

The proof of the pudding is how you feel and not what thoughts say. Why would you believe what thoughts say over what your direct/actual experience is? When you LOOK can you find a 'me'? Nice pick up on the expectations though! There is a thought here of wanting completeness….of reaching the end of the road…of reaching a designated goal and when you have reached that goal…then you can sit down and sigh contentedly with the thought : “well done, ME, you did it, you are now enlightened”! Funny stuff when you actually see it for what it is! Have a look at that thought and see what it points to!

Does experience itself/THIS care what appears on the screen? Is it really losing itself in the zooming in and out? You know that TV shows aren’t real, but do you watch them constantly thinking ‘they’re all actors, this isn’t real’ even though you already know that and can set it aside to enjoy the show? You will learn to just observe the TV show/movie called “The Life of Zazen” and not become caught up in it…but part of that TV show is a few episodes of the actor/character being caught up as being the actor/character! All you can do is to continue to LOOK, and when looking you see you cannot find the unfindable!

If so, how does it feel to realise this?

When theres no yo-yoing, its quite remarkable, and laughable lol.... its a joke on me, on everything lol. Its wonderful to be honest.

Beautiful Zazen! Look at my question carefully….what is the difference between yo-yoing and non yo-yoing?

And has anything changed?

Yes, maybe theres more relaxation, letting this 'life' flow by... since theres no doer, no chooser. And ive become more easy going or light hearted, taking things as a constant joke, or groundhog day lol, where Im just playing along lol... playing make-believe lol... along with characters on the stage.

I can feel (haha) your lightness in your words…lovely!

And what hasn’t changed?

Experience... its like life goes on, the same as before, but now you are playing along lol, like you know the inside joke.

YES! :) Chop wood carry water before 'enlightenment'. Chop wood carry water after 'enlightenment' :)

What is the main difference, if any, from before this exploration started?

Thought.... that was (and maybe still is) a big hurdle. Not believing in thought. At the start, I had these ideas, all thoughts, these worries, now I see there we all just thoughts, so seeing trough thought is the main difference before I came to LU.

Keep breaking down activities, objects and emotions into AE and start to observe thoughts.

Is seeking still going on?

Less and less. I still like to read quotes here and there, as a way of keeping me on track. I also meditate. But the energy or angst of trying to realize is not the same. Its more relaxed, more in the HereNow...

It sounds like the seeking is the softer seeking to deepen understanding and to deepen insights, but the intense seeking energy, that in and of itself was like suffering, has dropped away, or am I off the page here?

Love, Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay :)

And this is simply part of the story that SEEMS to be happening on the screen. But isn't it interesting how the zooming in and out does itself?

Yes, I see this, its just naturally happening, zooming in and out.

The yo-yoing affect will continue happening, until it doesn’t. And what I mean by that…is that when the ‘zooming out’ happens, it won’t matter that ‘you’ have zoomed in…because there is a knowing that it is simply a play within the dream itself.

Yes, I see this, thank you!

The proof of the pudding is how you feel and not what thoughts say. Why would you believe what thoughts say over what your direct/actual experience is? When you LOOK can you find a 'me'?

Thank you, yes, I see that AE is what it is, and thought saying it should some particular way, is just AE of thought.

When you LOOK can you find a 'me'?

Never, and this is very clear.

There is a thought here of wanting completeness….of reaching the end of the road…of reaching a designated goal and when you have reached that goal…then you can sit down and sigh contentedly with the thought : “well done, ME, you did it, you are now enlightened”! Funny stuff when you actually see it for what it is!

Lol, yes, 'I finally did it! Me! I got something no one else has!' Lol.... and that points to AE of thought.... thank you for keeping reminding me of that!

Does experience itself/THIS care what appears on the screen? Is it really losing itself in the zooming in and out?

No, it never loses itself...

You know that TV shows aren’t real, but do you watch them constantly thinking ‘they’re all actors, this isn’t real’ even though you already know that and can set it aside to enjoy the show? You will learn to just observe the TV show/movie called “The Life of Zazen” and not become caught up in it…but part of that TV show is a few episodes of the actor/character being caught up as being the actor/character! All you can do is to continue to LOOK, and when looking you see you cannot find the unfindable!

beautifully put Kay, thank you! ... I get this more and more, sometimes I get caught up on scenes of a episode! lol... then zooming out and no one to find...

Beautiful Zazen! Look at my question carefully….what is the difference between yo-yoing and non yo-yoing?

None.... lol. What says its a difference, is thought, because thought prefers the non-yoyo part of it, so it makes it a diference, or something to achieve: "Get to that non-yoyo Zazen!". In reality, theres no difference. The screen is always there, just the known changes.

Yes, maybe theres more relaxation, letting this 'life' flow by... since theres no doer, no chooser. And ive become more easy going or light hearted, taking things as a constant joke, or groundhog day lol, where Im just playing along lol... playing make-believe lol... along with characters on the stage.

I can feel (haha) your lightness in your words…lovely!

Thank you Kay :)!

YES! :) Chop wood carry water before 'enlightenment'. Chop wood carry water after 'enlightenment' :)

:)

Thought.... that was (and maybe still is) a big hurdle. Not believing in thought. At the start, I had these ideas, all thoughts, these worries, now I see there we all just thoughts, so seeing trough thought is the main difference before I came to LU.

Keep breaking down activities, objects and emotions into AE and start to observe thoughts.

Ok

Less and less. I still like to read quotes here and there, as a way of keeping me on track. I also meditate. But the energy or angst of trying to realize is not the same. Its more relaxed, more in the HereNow...

It sounds like the seeking is the softer seeking to deepen understanding and to deepen insights, but the intense seeking energy, that in and of itself was like suffering, has dropped away, or am I off the page here?

No, you're correct Kay. Its become lighter. For example before I would read a lot of quotes, long ones, or passages, now I get lazy, prefer small quotes lol, because it feels redundant... but also I like sharing these type of things on my social network, I like getting this message across to others... but overall, I feel more relaxed, more interested in looking and seeing what is, and being amazed at being this actor in the movie... I find that more amazing than continuing seeking. its like the seeking has turned into looking.

Blessings, Z

[forgetmenot]

Hi Zazen,

Thank you for your delightful posts!

And this is simply part of the story that SEEMS to be happening on the screen. But isn't it interesting how the zooming in and out does itself?

Yes, I see this, its just naturally happening, zooming in and out.

The movement of zooming in and out is IT…THIS! Nothing is not THIS. All abstractions in an abstract painting are the paint, but the paint does not become the abstractions. The ordinary is the extraordinary and this can be seen when we put aside the thoughts about how ordinary and mundane life is. There is nothing ‘mundane’ about IT. So there is a noting of the zooming in and out…which is also the movement of/as THIS.

When you LOOK can you find a 'me'?

Never, and this is very clear.

Beautiful. So yes, thought will continue to appear saying “but it feels like a me” (whatever that means…how does a ‘me’ feel like exactly??), and that “stuff is a happening to a me”, and that “there is a me in the body, and that there is a “me who keeps getting lost in thought”, a “me zooming in and out” and that isn’t going to change and it doesn’t need to change…not when you see the ordinary is the extraordinary! And you would need to be the author of thought to change thought. But that doesn’t need to happen either…as you don’t need thought to tell you that you (not Zazen) ARE.

There is a thought here of wanting completeness….of reaching the end of the road…of reaching a designated goal and when you have reached that goal…then you can sit down and sigh contentedly with the thought : “well done, ME, you did it, you are now enlightened”! Funny stuff when you actually see it for what it is!

Lol, yes, 'I finally did it! Me! I got something no one else has!' Lol.... and that points to AE of thought.... thank you for keeping reminding me of that!

And when you see what thought actually IS…and not how thought describes itself…you can realise the extraordinary of/as thought :)

Beautiful Zazen! Look at my question carefully….what is the difference between yo-yoing and non yo-yoing?

None.... lol. What says its a difference, is thought, because thought prefers the non-yoyo part of it, so it makes it a diference, or something to achieve: "Get to that non-yoyo Zazen!". In reality, theres no difference. The screen is always there, just the known changes.

And isn’t it freeing to know, that even the preferences, and so called differences that SEEM to appear are IT! :)

Okay, can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it FEEL to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

With love,
Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay, :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

There is none now.... but there was one for 'along time'. But that separate self still appears within the movie, as part of the movie when zooming in happens.... when zooming out and looking happens, also part of the movie, its clear that there never was a separate self, or me, only the illusion of it. Now its clear that theres just this beingness thats not separate from experience. This beigness in itself is the movie, but it never loses its beigness, which is the wow factor lol!

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The separate self is a identification with the body, mind, thoughts, stories, that is separate from the 'world', and is vulnerable to it. Separate self is this identify, based on fear of losing or trying to get something in order to not loose that identity, so the separate self is constantly reinventing itself trough attachment and rejection. Trough those 2 movements it grows in reality, it protects itself. Trough attachment, the separate self thinks that if it reaches or gains something from the 'world' (love, money, fame, etc), it will be OK, safe, better, bigger, happier, etc. And trough rejection, it protects itself from the world and its dangers, that way maintaining its integrity or identity in place.
The separate self, in my experience, starts during childhood, when learning concepts, labeling objects, identifying with a name, etc, and the accumulation of good and bad experiences/memories, that start to justify its illusory reality, that its a body and mind and needs love and acceptance, and also needs to protect itself from dangers, etc.

3) How does it FEEL to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Lol... it feels like that, like a big laugh lol... a big inside joke, like if I got a ticket to the backstage of a concert or something and you get to see this concert, knowing its just a concert, and that you are always home... something like that lol...
When I started, there was more tension and seeking, like trying to get somewhere... and the joke now is that ive always being here.... no need to go somewhere lol....
Last few days have been a flow of this type of lightness or humor.... with some yo-yoing, but its like something has settled and the idea of it is revealing more depth to it... like today I went walking... and I normally do some looking during that period, because theres no work happening lol... so today I was just seeing that theres just this emptiness... that all is really empty if you really look... empty, and full at the same time. But the emptiness is the underlying reality of everything.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

It was you Kay, when you told me that I wasnt really looking, and you asked me to go over all the exploration again and take some time off... so lets says I re applied myself... took out notes and did a file that I carry with myself on my phone... being reading trough parts here and there, then looking during activities.... I also found that mixing all the exercises without any order in particular really drive the point...

5)
a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Well, I see now that decision, free will, choice, control, all that is a illusion. But it looks real from the character viewpoint. He thinks hes calling the shots.... What makes things happen? God, nature, everything is just going on with the program per whos agenda???? ...dont know exactly... this is something that probably is not clear.... if everything is just happening, one way to look at that, or that I have read, is that the particular movie of Z is based on karma, and other traditions can say other reasons, etc... another way of looking at if, if I am the screen, I am projecting this movie onto myself... but not conscious of the content thats coming up, because thats the whole idea probably, to just have this movie and whatever, you know.... or maybe to experience the movie, and eventually wake up from it..... this is something thats iffy for me Kay, to be honest.
But some examples, in my experience, is that something is taking care of everything... this notion has grown more and more... I dont really have to struggle for work, work appears... if theres the idea of struggle or fear about work, I then see that thats just thought.... its always been this way, but before, being identified ad being a separate character, the idea was that it was on me to to do everything, to accomplish everything... but that was also part of the movie.... lol...

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

If I am responsible for something, then that is saying theres a me or someone that is responsible. and the whole exploration has been that theres no one here lol.... so what I am responsible? Nothing lol! Maybe just to look? but that is also just part of the movie.... thats the best I can answer this one.

6) Anything to add?

Just a lot of gratitude Kay, for what we have explored here, dont know if this is the end of this enquiry, or not, but I feel gratitude...

Blessings to you Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hey Z,

The questions given are considered the final questions. They are about seeing that if you are clear about having seen there is no separate self, then the guides guiding is clear. So from that perspective, it’s more about the guide being clear, to be able to point clearly, so that you can look and see clearly what is being pointed to/at. So the questions have a dual purpose :)

Having said that, it doesn’t mean that communication has to stop here. You will be invited to LU’s Facebook groups, and you can always communicate with me via FB or via the forums PM system if you have any questions, or would just like to share insights etc once this thread has been finalised.

5)
a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Well, I see now that decision, free will, choice, control, all that is a illusion. But it looks real from the character viewpoint. He thinks hes calling the shots.... What makes things happen? God, nature, everything is just going on with the program per whos agenda???? ...dont know exactly... this is something that probably is not clear.... if everything is just happening, one way to look at that, or that I have read, is that the particular movie of Z is based on karma, and other traditions can say other reasons, etc... another way of looking at if, if I am the screen, I am projecting this movie onto myself... but not conscious of the content thats coming up, because thats the whole idea probably, to just have this movie and whatever, you know.... or maybe to experience the movie, and eventually wake up from it..... this is something thats iffy for me Kay, to be honest.

This is something we don’t address in this exploration. This exploration is purely about realising that there is no separate self. If you would like to investigate the above or deepen what you have already realised, this can be done. It is done in another LU forum which you will be privy to, once this thread has been finalised.

But some examples, in my experience, is that something is taking care of everything... this notion has grown more and more... I dont really have to struggle for work, work appears... if theres the idea of struggle or fear about work, I then see that thats just thought.... its always been this way, but before, being identified ad being a separate character, the idea was that it was on me to to do everything, to accomplish everything... but that was also part of the movie.... lol...

Can you find anyone/anything that is controlling, deciding or choosing, or they are simply happening? When you looked to see if you could find anyone doing these things…what did you find? What did you notice? And when seeing what you saw…how did it feel to see it?

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

If I am responsible for something, then that is saying theres a me or someone that is responsible. and the whole exploration has been that theres no one here lol.... so what I am responsible? Nothing lol! Maybe just to look? but that is also just part of the movie.... thats the best I can answer this one.

Lovely, yes. But let's look at it a little closer. Can you find an author of thought? Do you choose what thoughts appear and when? If you can’t even pick and choose thoughts, then how can you be responsible for anything?

6) Anything to add?

Just a lot of gratitude Kay, for what we have explored here, dont know if this is the end of this enquiry, or not, but I feel gratitude...

I thank you for the opportunity to walk along beside you to seeing that there is no gate to walk through! 

Love, Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay ;)

Having said that, it doesn’t mean that communication has to stop here. You will be invited to LU’s Facebook groups, and you can always communicate with me via FB or via the forums PM system if you have any questions, or would just like to share insights etc once this thread has been finalised.

Thank you Kay, I would like to continue to be in touch with you, and thank you for inviting me to the FB group.

This is something we don’t address in this exploration. This exploration is purely about realising that there is no separate self. I

f you would like to investigate the above or deepen what you have already realised, this can be done. It is done in another LU forum which you will be privy to, once this thread has been finalised.

Great, thank you!

Can you find anyone/anything that is controlling, deciding or choosing, or they are simply happening?

Controlling, deciding or choosing is simply happening, I see this every time I look for the controller, the chooser, etc :)

When you looked to see if you could find anyone doing these things…what did you find? What did you notice?

Never find anyone or anything, I just find AE, sounds, colors, sensations.... I also notice that when the choosing or deciding or controlling is going on, theres no me doing that... its like its just happening, then after the fact comes the thought, I did that, I chose that... and that is just thought!

And when seeing what you saw…how did it feel to see it?

Lol... its pretty unbelievable lol. It feels very very very liberating lol.

If I am responsible for something, then that is saying theres a me or someone that is responsible. and the whole exploration has been that theres no one here lol.... so what I am responsible? Nothing lol! Maybe just to look? but that is also just part of the movie.... thats the best I can answer this one.

Lovely, yes. But let's look at it a little closer. Can you find an author of thought? Do you choose what thoughts appear and when? If you can’t even pick and choose thoughts, then how can you be responsible for anything?

Yes, I see what you mean K! So to choose a thought saying, "Ah Z, its time to look, because you are at least responsible for that", is a thought, and Ive seen thats theres no chooser of thought, so that response was just thought or part of the movie script... so yes, how can I be responsible for anything if I cant choose when to have a certain thought lol... Thank you for pointing this...

I thank you for the opportunity to walk along beside you to seeing that there is no gate to walk through!

:) !

[forgetmenot]

Hey Z,

What I am going to do now is get a couple of other guides to check your thread to make sure that I have been pointing clearly and that my pointing has been effective in you looking to see! :) They may or may not have further questions for you. Whether or not they do or don't, I will let you know either which way.

Love, Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hey Zazen,

That was quick...I have heard back from the other guides already!

Congratulations, and welcome through the Gateless Gate! There are no further questions for you. It has been my absolute pleasure to explore the concept of a separate self with you and to point the way and thank you for your willingness to LOOK and for your lovely sense of humour.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum, within the next day or two, inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. I also have a small group on FB and if you like, I can also add you to that group. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you. You will notice that your username on the forum, will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions etc, via the forums PM system, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Love, Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay!

That was quick...I have heard back from the other guides already!

Congratulations, and welcome through the Gateless Gate! There are no further questions for you. It has been my absolute pleasure to explore the concept of a separate self with you and to point the way and thank you for your willingness to LOOK and for your lovely sense of humour.

Wow, thank you very much! To be honest, I never thought this 'time' would come lol. Thank you also for providing you guidance. I read the email already, and I'll get that going in the next days. Its exciting to be going on this journey. Really happy, thank you!

Love, Z