West Cork Ireland- asking for Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

I wasn’t sure if you meant the actual computer display before me or any display of visual image before me.

Any display does :)

When seeing it, is there any division between seeing, seer, and the seen?
Are these three separate?
If yes, could you find the boundary between the three? Not an imagined, conceptual boundary, but an actual boundary that can be perceived with one or more of the senses.

When I read your post first I was sitting outside my front door which has a spectacular view of trees and hills and a lake. As I was looking at the scene I first of all focused on the hills in the far distance and then on the trees on the hill just opposite my house and then on the trees 100 yards in front of me at the bottom of the field. I had a strange sensation of looking out through holes on my head/face but there didn’t seem to be any eyes there getting in the way. It was as if the scene in front of me was pouring out of me and it was also passing back through the holes in my face/head and continuing on behind me. I really tried hard to look for the boundary and I was expecting it to be my eyes especially and my body but it just didn’t seem to be there.

Nice observation of both seeing no dividing line and also with regards to the eyes.

It seems as if whatever is in front of you is seen from the perspective of two windows (eyes), or like a windscreen view. But when you zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing, what do you find? The eyes aren’t seeing and there is no one seeing through the eyes. So there is no one/no thing that is seeing separate from what’s seen, there is just what is seen.

If it appears as if words are seen through looking with the eyes, eyes would be needed, right?
What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?

So, is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?

I did look with the senses and couldn’t find smell, sound, colour, taste or thought that indicated any boundary at all. It is only thought that presumes and judges that there is a boundary between what is seen the seer and the seeing.

Yes…nice! And it’s great that you took the initiative to see if you could find a boundary between smeller and smell, taste and taster etc.


So no boundary can be found between what is known (AE) or the knowing of/as them. There is only knowingknown….yes?

Is there a you in control of what you are aware of?

There is no “you/me” in control of what I’m aware of as far as I can see. It is only thought that tells me there is. Awareness just is and encompasses everything there is.

The word ‘awareness’ is not a word I use because of all the beliefs that are attached to it, just like the word ‘God’, for example. You will find that I use the words ‘experience’, THIS or knowing.

In other words is there a you that is in control of whether or not "spacing out" happens and where attention goes?

This one I’m finding a little harder to get my head around. Does attention just automatically go where it is needed in other words attention/awareness just concentrates on driving the car without the need for any conscious thought.

And this is exactly why I don’t like the word ‘awareness’. Can you find an entity or anything anywhere that is named ‘awareness’? The problem here is that the identity shifts from being a separate self to something called ‘awareness’ which is then doing everything.

Where exactly is this 'awareness'? Where is it located, where does it reside and what does it look like?

You did the ‘display exercise….looking at what is in front of you. Did you experience awareness of anything distinct from what is being awared?

Let’s look at focus/attention

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focussing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?
Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?
What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

So if I’m driving a route I know well there is no need for thought as such since awareness just knows which turns to take and thought can take a back seat which is different from spacing out. In fact its the complete opposite its being totally in the present moment without thought needing to interfere.

Where exactly is this “I” that is driving? What is the AE of what you wrote above?

How is the movement controlled?

I’m not sure it is controlled by anything but instint

What is the AE of instinct?
What exactly is it that has instinct? Is it colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste or thought?

Once the command is given to turn the hand palm down then palm up and so on it seems to just happen automatically. I didn’t notice any thoughts telling me to do anything.

If a command is given…then you are saying that there is something that turns the hand. How is a command any different to a thought? You need to look at this again.

Does a thought control it?

It doesn’t seem to.

“Seem” is just another thought. It either does or doesn’t.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

As I mentioned above once the command is given by the brain or maybe an initial thought it them seems to continue automatically.

What is the AE of “the brain”?

Did you find that each time the thought to turn the hand appeared...that the hand turned? Or were there times that the hand did not turn?

By the way...how is the fear going these days? What's happening there?

The fear seems to be pretty non existent the majority of the time.

Good to hear.

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I have had a hectic couple of days had to come up to Dublin again yesterday at short notice to collect a drum. I'm not back till late tonight and working a 10 to 10 tomorrow. I'll do my best to post this evening but if not I'll get to it first thing Sunday.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ado,

I have had a hectic couple of days had to come up to Dublin again yesterday at short notice to collect a drum. I'm not back till late tonight and working a 10 to 10 tomorrow. I'll do my best to post this evening but if not I'll get to it first thing Sunday.

You have just gotten over an illness, your days have been hectic and you are working a long day. Give yourself some time to relax, time to breathe and just be. The post will still be there once you have given yourself down time, so if it takes a few days for you to send me a post...so be it :)

Love, Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I managed to get the focusing exercise done this morning before work and was able to answer the other questions on my lunch break. I don't like to leave too much time between posts as it feels important to keep the momentum going.
Also I have posted this using my phone hence I wasn't able to use the quote function.



It appears as if words are seen through looking with the eyes, eyes would be needed, right?
What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?

Nothing is known apart from thought telling me they are eyes. There is just seeing full stop.

So, is there any awareness separate from experience or is there just experience?

There is just experience it is just a more subtle thought that tells me there is awareness seperate from experience.

So no boundary can be found between what is known (AE) or the knowing of/as them. There is only knowingknown….yes?

Yes there is only knowing/known.

Where exactly is this awareness?
Where is it located? Where does it reside? And what does it look like?

Awareness is just another thought and therefore it doesn't reside anywhere bar the imagination and story and it doesn't look like anything cos its not real.

You did the ‘display exercise….looking at what is in front of you. Did you experience awareness of anything distinct from what is being awared?

No during that exercise it was obvious there was nothing but experiencing. There was no observer of experience it was purely experience and nothing else.

Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.

Focus on focussing, attention itself.
Do you move it, or it moves by itself?

It moves all of its own accord.

Hold focus on breath - see how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.
Is this something you control?

No.

What moves attention?
Is thought in control of attention?

I would have said thought controlled it before this work started but now I can see that it is only thought that tells me it is
controlling attention.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

You haven't answered the following questions from my previous post. I will wait until you have answered them before I respond.

So if I’m driving a route I know well there is no need for thought as such since awareness just knows which turns to take and thought can take a back seat which is different from spacing out. In fact its the complete opposite its being totally in the present moment without thought needing to interfere.

Where exactly is this “I” that is driving? What is the AE of what you wrote above?

How is the movement controlled?

I’m not sure it is controlled by anything but instint

What is the AE of instinct?
What exactly is it that has instinct? Is it colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste or thought?
Once the command is given to turn the hand palm down then palm up and so on it seems to just happen automatically. I didn’t notice any thoughts telling me to do anything.

If a command is given…then you are saying that there is something that turns the hand. How is a command any different to a thought? You need to look at this again.
Does a thought control it?

It doesn’t seem to.

“Seem” is just another thought. It either does or doesn’t.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

As I mentioned above once the command is given by the brain or maybe an initial thought it them seems to continue automatically.

What is the AE of “the brain”?

Did you find that each time the thought to turn the hand appeared...that the hand turned? Or were there times that the hand did not turn?

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

My apologies I completely forgot about those questions,

Where exactly is this “I” that is driving? What is the AE of what you wrote above?

There is no “I” driving there is only actual experience of driving, the sensations of the subtle vibrations and bumps in the road being felt in my backside and back in the seat of the car, the colour of the constantly changing display before me and the sounds of the car on the road and the wind etc...The “I” who is driving is only a thought telling me that I am driving.

What is the AE of instinct?
What exactly is it that has instinct? Is it colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste or thought?

Instinct is only a thought about instinct it doesn’t have colour, sound, smell, sensation or taste. It is a conditioned thought that tells me that instinct is turning the hand when in fact it is all experiencing happening moment by moment without ‘anybody’, doing anything.

Once the command is given to turn the hand palm down then palm up and so on it seems to just happen automatically. I didn’t notice any thoughts telling me to do anything.

The command is just another word for the initial known thought “turn palm up/down” but there is no thought needed to do the action is happens automatically. In other words after the initial thought there are no need for any other thoughts to complete or continue the action. I’m not sure if I’m articulating this very well but basically I what I’m trying to convey is that thought is not needed to conduct any actions there is only experiencing. Once the illusion that the “I” thought is controlling everything is seen through how can there be anything but just experience. This fact is starting to sink in little by little.

“Seem” is just another thought. It either does or doesn’t.

As I have explained above I can see now that thought has nothing to do with it, the hand turning is just experienced.

What is the AE of “the brain”?

The AE of the brain is just a thought about experience of a brain. It doesn’t point to sound, smell, taste, sensation, or colour.

Did you find that each time the thought to turn the hand appeared...that the hand turned? Or were there times that the hand did not turn?

The hand seemed to keep turning regardless of whether the thought “to turn hand”, appeared or not. It happens without thought. There is a knowing that this or that has to happen and then it just happens without the need for thought to control it. Not sure if that makes sense.
All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ado,

It appears as if words are seen through looking with the eyes, eyes would be needed, right?
What is actually known right now about eyes, except thought about them?

Nothing is known apart from thought telling me they are eyes. There is just seeing full stop.

Seeing and knowing are one and the same. Seeing of colour and seeing of seeing are one and the same = colour

So no boundary can be found between what is known (AE) or the knowing of/as them. There is only knowingknown….yes?

Yes there is only knowing/known.

As soon as experience/THIS/knowingknown has been labelled it becomes divided. It becomes divided into 6 main categories: - sound AND smell AND thought AND colour AND taste AND sensation. If you take away the AND it is soundsmellthoughtcolourtastesensation which denotes that there is no division. However, the ‘thinking mind’ still sees even that as separate words pointing to experience having 6 different forms.
So let’s replace soundsmellthoughtcolourtastesensation with just X.
X = experience/THIS/knowingknown exactly as it is.

Once the command is given to turn the hand palm down then palm up and so on it seems to just happen automatically. I didn’t notice any thoughts telling me to do anything.

I’m not sure if I’m articulating this very well but basically I what I’m trying to convey is that thought is not needed to conduct any actions there is only experiencing. Once the illusion that the “I” thought is controlling everything is seen through how can there be anything but just experience. This fact is starting to sink in little by little.

Yes, thought is not the catalyst for actions. If thought were, life would be rather cumbersome as each thought for every tiny movement would need to be awared and then actioned. Just the simple task of picking up a cup would become onerous! What if a thought was needed to breathe!

What is it exactly that is “experiencing”? Can a dividing line be found between experience and “experiencer”? Where does sound (known) end and the knowing of it begin?

What is the AE of “the brain”?

The AE of the brain is just a thought about experience of a brain. It doesn’t point to sound, smell, taste, sensation, or colour.

How is a brain experienced exactly?

The label ‘brain’ is AE of a thought not AE of a brain
Image of a ‘brain’ is AE of colour and not AE of a brain
The thoughts about a ‘brain’ are AE of thought and not AE of a brain

So what is known is label + colour + thoughts, but is a ‘brain’ actually known?

Did you find that each time the thought to turn the hand appeared...that the hand turned? Or were there times that the hand did not turn?

The hand seemed to keep turning regardless of whether the thought “to turn hand”, appeared or not. It happens without thought. There is a knowing that this or that has to happen and then it just happens without the need for thought to control it. Not sure if that makes sense.

Without thought, how is it known that a 'hand' is turning?

Here is an exercise that helps to see how the illusion of the body is ‘created’, and how the idea of cause and effect seem to play out. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’.

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I just wanted to share with you that I have been feeling very low the last couple of days. Its as if I have taken three steps forward in the last few weeks and now I have suddenly gone back 20 steps and there is a foggines there that is very frustrating. I did a drumming workshop in a school again today which was a real struggle for the first hour and then things improved when I was able to get out of my head . I am also doing a lot of comfort eating and it is getting under my skin. I seem to be looking for any way possible to distract myself from this work which I presume is a natural part of the whole process. Its as if there’s an energy there that just doesn’t want me to be doing this work. I’m aware that this is all head stuff and while I do feel that I’m making a lot of progress and have seen glimpses of no self I’m finding it very hard to see today. I have sent you a private message that goes into a bit more detail on this.

What is it exactly that is “experiencing”? Can a dividing line be found between experience and “experiencer”? Where does sound (known) end and the knowing of it begin?

There is no dividing line there is just sound full stop. The known and the knowing of it are one and the same thing.

How is a brain experienced exactly?

The label ‘brain’ is AE of a thought not AE of a brain
Image of a ‘brain’ is AE of colour and not AE of a brain
The thoughts about a ‘brain’ are AE of thought and not AE of a brain

So what is known is label + colour + thoughts, but is a ‘brain’ actually known?

In AE a brain can’t be known except by the labels that thought gives it. It is only a concept of a brain that I have up to now just presumed was fact but as you say it can only be the AE of thoughts about a brain that can be known.

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Yes I can see that and it is quite an unusual disconcerting feeling. I kept the hand really still and when I had my eyes closed there was just a tingling sensation with a small bit of discomfort the longer I held up my hand. As I opened my eyes and saw the hand it was almost as if it was someone else's. The felt sensation and the visual sight were almost otherworldly like they didn’t belong to me.

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

It seemed to me that on the one hand they were equal but I did have a sense that the felt sensation was slightly stronger or maybe that was because when my eyes were closed there was only the felt sensation and when the eyes were open there was still the felt sensation as well as the visual sight.

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

There was no link between sensation and the sight (labeled hand). They were just both there the visual and the felt sensation. It is only thought and mental constructs like you say that tries to link them.

All the best

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado....I have sent you a PM.

Love, Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I sent you a private message.

Regards

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hey Ado...check your forum PM's.

Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Ado,

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Yes I can see that and it is quite an unusual disconcerting feeling. I kept the hand really still and when I had my eyes closed there was just a tingling sensation with a small bit of discomfort the longer I held up my hand. As I opened my eyes and saw the hand it was almost as if it was someone else's. The felt sensation and the visual sight were almost otherworldly like they didn’t belong to me.

Here is a great clip which shows that there is no correlation between sight and sensation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight, meaning that the sensation is ‘coming from’ the sight (labelled as ‘hand’) or only thought and mental constructs link them?

There was no link between sensation and the sight (labeled hand). They were just both there the visual and the felt sensation. It is only thought and mental constructs like you say that tries to link them.

What is the AE of ‘hand’?

Is the sensation actually felt? Can you find anyone or anything that is 'feeling' the sensation?
Is there a dividing line between 'feeling' and sensation? In other words where does 'feeling' end and sensation begin?


Kay

[Clashnacrona]

Hi Kay,

I had a look at that video link you sent which was very interesting and really does point to how easily the mind can convince us of any illusion.

What is the AE of ‘hand’?

The AE of hand is just colour and sensation.

Is the sensation actually felt? Can you find anyone or anything that is 'feeling' the sensation?
Is there a dividing line between 'feeling' and sensation? In other words where does 'feeling' end and sensation begin?

There is just sensation. There is no dividing line between sensation and feeling. There is just sensation especially when the eyes are closed. It took a little longer to realise that when the eyes were opened but after a short while the hand was seen as a shape or not even a shape just something in peripheral vision along with all the other shapes and colours in the background.
It is only thought that tells me that there is anyone feeling the sensation.

Take Care

Ado

[forgetmenot]

Hi Ado,

It is only thought that tells me that there is anyone feeling the sensation.

Yes, exactly. And that goes for thinking too…yes?

Okay, so we started to look at control, choice and decisions with the ‘flipping the hand’ exercise. Let’s look further.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Kay

[Clashnacrona]

i Kay,

I did the exercise with the two different drinks. I like coffee and smoothies so I made a fruit smoothie and a cup of milky coffee.
After sitting for a few moments to weigh up the pros and cons of both like one is cold the other hot and so on I choose the smoothie to take a sip from.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

They seemed to be just there there wasn’t much thought about them.

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

A preference didn’t manifest

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

There was just counting I don’t remember any preferences being there.

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

My hand just reached out and chose the smoothie. Immediately a thought came in that informed me that I had chosen the smoothie cos that was slightly nearer to my outstretched hand. Ironically I would drink a lot more coffee than smoothies so I would have thought that a preference for coffee would have appeared but that didn’t seem to be the case.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

No there was no chooser my hand just reached out and took the smoothie.

Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’?

No I didn’t notice anything arising that said I am the chooser.

If so, what does this function look like?

A function didn't appear

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’?

A feeling can’t choose its only a thought that tells me that its the feeling that could be doing the choosing.

Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

No.

I really don’t understand what happened with this experiment but there definitely didn’t seem to be a me doing the choosing.

All the best

Ado