The Gate

Hi Verananda,

Can you find an I in this game? Or just other thoughts that say these thoughts are true ...?

No I, just thoughts, and thoughts about thoughts.

Thoughts and feeling/sensation and again no I inside?

No I.

Is it a fear about something? Thoughts saying "I'm afraid of ...."?

I don't know, maybe fear of "jumping into the unknown" and then "losing control". What happens is that, usually during investigation, from nowhere hearts accelerates, then attention goes to it, and it returns to normal.

Is this more that a thought?

It is a thought.

Here is a summary of where I'm now. I can see that this apparent separation of seer/seen, listener/sound, etc is the experience of a thought about separation. Seeing this, again and again, brings some easiness to life, but I would be lying if I say that I feel "liberated", especially I would be lying if I say that I'm not identified with the body (sorry for my insistence). There is a quote that I remembered from the LU Enlightening Quotes:

The illusion is that “you” are personal. Nothing can happen
to “you” because there is no “you.” “You” can’t be harmed.
The body can perish, but it’s not “your” body any more than
a flower is “your” body—it’s the body of life

I certainly don't have this level of clarity. This body still "feels" as it is "mine", much more than a flower. I know that what says this is a thought. But right from the start all this separation were the experience of thoughts, there must be a moment when thoughts lose completely their power and we stop believing it completely, right? Or these are all just more expectations? I certainly still think that if the body dies, I die. I know, more thoughts, but this is how it feels.

Feel free to slap in the face if needed, but I'm really confused...

Best,
Nelson

Hi Nelson,

Seeing this, again and again, brings some easiness to life,

thats fine :-)

but I would be lying if I say that I feel "liberated", especially I would be lying if I say that I'm not identified with the body (sorry for my insistence).

How would it feel to be "liberated"?
How would it feel to be "not identified with the body"?
What are you expecting?

When the "I" is seen for what it is, nothing more than a thought, to what does "my body" refer to?
There are sensations. There is the idea of a body. But where is this subject that says "my body"?

This body still "feels" as it is "mine", much more than a flower.

again, what is the expectation here?

But right from the start all this separation were the experience of thoughts, there must be a moment when thoughts lose completely their power and we stop believing it completely, right?

(*)
What we know for sure is the experience of the senses here an now.
Color, sound, taste, sensation, .....
Everything else is thought.
Can a thought known as true?
Does it need more than seeing this?
Wouldn't a "wow .... thought are powerless now !!!!" or "now I'm done - I don't beliefe my thougths anymore!!!" anything else than a new thought?
So what exactly is the expectation here?
Can "I" win this game?

Or these are all just more expectations?

:-)
What do you think after reflecting the above?

And remember the methapher of the illusion in the desert (even if this is another thought): The image of the green trees and water spring dont dissapear after seeing that it is just a mirage.

I certainly still think that if the body dies, I die. I know, more thoughts, but this is how it feels.

How can you feel this?
It is a thought about future.
"The dentist's visit will hurt, I feel this"
Is this a thought (maybe followd by feelings)?
Or is it something that is realy felt right now?
Maybe you feel the fear about the visit or the toothache now .... but not a pain of a treatment that happens in some hours.

It is realy importend to sort this out: What can realy be felt, sensed right now? And if there are sensations/feeling how do they tell you about what happens after death? Isn't this more than a thought?
So if it is seen as a thought go to (*).

Love VE

Hi Verananda,

Thank you so much for the questions, they were right to the point. If you want I can answer them one by one, but I can see how expecting everything to change, was getting in the way of seeing how simple this is.

There is just what is going on. What makes it seems that there is an I in the middle of it, is that, whenever thinking happens, it is followed by an "I", a "little me", giving the impression that this "I" is thinking, deciding, controlling, doing everything. But the fact is that this "I" is just another thought passing by, among all the other thoughts.

There is no I in reality, just seeing, hearing, sensing, smelling, tasting and thinking happening by itself. This is simple, but at the same time very liberating.

Life goes on as it always did, and this "I" thought continues to pop-up as it always did. The only difference is that now it is seeing for what it is, a thought, and this brings easiness to life. More space.

The deepening of this realization, with insights about its ramifications, has been occurring lately, and some thoughts can still provoke a little fear. But this deepening is now happening more from a place of exploration, rather from a place of lack.

If you think it is appropriate, I believe that we can explore the six questions.

Best,
Nelson

Hi Nelson,

yes I think its time for the final 6 ..... :-)

here they are ...

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

looking forward to your answers :-)
love ve

Hi Verananda,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, there is no separate self, and it never existed.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

There is just what is going on. What creates this illusion of a separate self in the middle of it is that, whenever thinking happens, it is followed by an "I", a "little me", giving the impression that this "I" is thinking, deciding, controlling, doing everything. Sensations also seem to make this impression stronger. But the fact is that this "I" is just another thought passing by, among all the other thoughts.

There is no I in reality, just seeing, hearing, sensing, smelling, tasting and thinking happening by itself. This is simple, but at the same time very liberating.

I believe that this "I" thought and believing in it has started at childhood, with parents pointing at you, saying that you are this or that, and is doing this or that. In pure innocence, they were replicating an untrue model of reality that they themselves believe. The structure of our language, and the way that our minds work, breaking everything into concepts, seem to also play a role in giving rise to this illusion.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

Life goes on as it always did, and this "I" thought continues to pop-up as it always did. The only difference is that now it is seeing for what it is, a thought, and this brings easiness to life. More space.

It also seems that thoughts are less sticky, and there is much less emotional involvement in day-to-day activities, and towards other people (although these connections seem to happen in a deeper level). There is a subtle sense of gratitude and wonder.

The deepening of this realization, with insights about its ramifications, has also been occurring lately, and some thoughts can still provoke a little fear. But this deepening is now happening more from a place of exploration, rather from a place of lack.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I think that, since the shift that happened during the Finders Course, I was kind of aware of this "I" thought, and the mechanics of the illusion. But the fact is that it seemed that I was still identified with the "thinker". I can also see now how I was overthinking this, and, especially, how expecting everything to change was getting in the way of seeing how simple this is.

I believe that pointing me again and again to this simple truth was essential, and that the last bit that pushed me over was I being honest about expectations, and you questioning it, one by one. These sentences also had a special impact on me:

When the "I" is seen for what it is, nothing more than a thought, to what does "my body" refer to?
There are sensations. There is the idea of a body. But where is this subject that says "my body"?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
b) What makes things happen? How does it work?
c) What are you responsible for?
d) Give examples from experience.

There is choice happening, but no one doing it. There is just what is going on, with everything going by itself. No I is responsible for anything. When, for example, a decision to take a glass of water happens, there is a thought about taking the glass, and there is the action of taking the glass, but no one behind the curtains making the decision or doing the action.

6) Anything to add?

:)

Best,
Nelson

Hi Nelson,

thank you for wonderful answeres and sharing your experience.

Have a look for PM from admin with further information and invitation to aftergate groups.
If any question pops up again, you can contact me or start a new thread in the after gate section.

It was a pleasure beeing your guide
Love Verananda

Thank you so much for the attention and kindness with that you guided me, Verananda. I'm deeply grateful for the help that you, Canfora and others from LU gave me during this journey. You are all wonderful people.

See you.

Much love,
Nelson

It was a pleasure walking with you this journey! Love ve