My Thread

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

Beautiful.

Yes, it’s good to continue with the exercises.
Something to have to come back when the waters might get turbulent…
So here are the final questions.
Please take your time going into them:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen?
How does it work?
What are you responsible for?
Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Warmly

nina

[thursday123]

Nina,


Having looked at, and answered several of the final questions, I don't think I'm ready to answer them properly yet. I get that there is nothing to see, that there's just experience and that's all, but I don't actually feel much different from when I started, other than that I am more in touch with direct experience and am not going to great lengths to 'see' anything other than direct experience. The absence of self is not something I'm really in touch with and I still don't seem to really see it fully. I still feel very much like myself, like a human being, and there's been no drastic change in my perception of things. If it's okay with you, I'll take some time to go back and do all of the exercises again, and again if needs be, until I feel ready to answer the questions.


Beanstalk

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

perfectly OK.

We can just continue.
You can also re-read your tread.

Warmly

nina

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

The absence of self is not something I'm really in touch with and I still don't seem to really see it fully. I still feel very much like myself, like a human being, and there's been no drastic change in my perception of things.

You will never be able to get in touch with the absence of self; the separate self simply doesn’t exist. ( :
So you can also not get in touch with something that isn’t there in the first place.

The term ‘self’ is a tricky one and has different meanings to different people.
In our context the term ‘self’ addresses a mental construct of being a separate individual person.
Seeing no self simply addresses this realisation: The story about me and my past is simply a story.
The realisation: I am not my story.

That doesn’t imply that you as a person being aware don’t exist.
Perception is real –
Seeing is real; listening is real, feeling is real, sensations felt are real.

This may sound a bit contradictory but just have a close look:

Does it need your specific story and background to see the vision that is just in front of you?

We might redo the exercise about the sensing:


Usually when there is the belief that 'I am this body’
it is tied in with the belief that the body is a separate item who is responsible
or 'DOING' the senses –
'I see', 'I hear', 'I feel' etc

We will begin with 'seeing' - Just that one sense on its own.

Close your eyes. With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'.

There may be other things you can find going on, sure.
If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow.
There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing –
It really doesn't matter about the specifics.
Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed,
I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness?
Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er,
be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

Let's move on to opening the eyes now.
Again, address this very simply - The 'seeing' sense only for the moment.
With eyes open, a world of objects appears . . . a room . . . a computer screen etc
What you can specifically see isn't of interest here, and whatever it is,
I am simply going to refer to it as 'what can be seen'.
This might be a little trickier, but give it some consideration.

1) With eyes open, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'what can be seen' as I mentioned?

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'what can be seen'?

3) Can what is witnessing 'what can be seen' be found?

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a beanstalk (or any name used for your person)
be found that is witnessing 'what can be seen'?
Or is there just simply 'what can be seen' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er,
be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?



Warm regards

nina

[thursday123]

Nina,

Does it need your specific story and background to see the vision that is just in front of you?

no


Exercise:

1) With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?

yes

2) Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?

no

3) Can what is witnessing the blackness be found?

no

4) Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me', a person be found that is witnessing the blackness?
Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er,
be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

no


When I did the exercise with the eyes open, I found the exact same


Beanstalk

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

OK.

Please do the exercises ‘being as you are’ and ‘sensing space’ on a regular basis.

It might be a good idea to record them on your phone and listen to the instructions when there are no outside demands.
For example, when using public transport to go to your work-place it would be a good opportunity to listen.
The more you get familiar with it you can also practice with open eyes.
(When you’re going by car of course not.)

Observe what you normally identify with, particularly your thoughts and get familiar with the background awareness.

This awareness is too easy to overlook.
There is nothing for the mind to grab onto here, so the conditioned mind tends to dismiss it.
There is no way to know this awareness as we would know an object.
Therefore, to the mind it is a no-thing or nothingness - a blank state.
Yet without it, there would be nothing; without this knowing awareness there would be no perception at all.

But awareness is not a state. It doesn’t change.
It quietly waits to be recognized as who we essentially are.
It is totally simple, open and empty of definition.
It seems that everything, in both our inner and outer worlds, wants to be consciously met by this awareness
in order to be librated.
All of our apparent wounds and frozen places are waiting to be touched by the kindness
and clarity that radiates from this awareness.

( :

Just stay with the exercises for some time and let me know how you go.

Warmly

nina

[thursday123]

Nina,

Okay, I'll repeat those exercises every day, among any others I think will be of help. After repeating the seeing exercise again, I found that what I'm stuck on is not who is doing the seeing exactly, because when I am just looking without any real effort it's pretty clear there's no me doing it. But when I actively bring myself to focus on what is being seen, then I struggle to see that there's no me doing it. The active things like deliberate focusing, exertion of effort and shifting attention are what I'm struggling with - not the decision to do them but the actual doing of them. When no-self has been accepted and understood, do deliberate actions cease to feel deliberate? Also I'm having particular trouble looking at focusing directly because I'm trying to focus on something and then focus on the focusing of it at the same time, so it is difficult to get a clear look at it.

Thank you very much for taking the time to help me with all of this. It is appreciated and I'm going to keep at this until it is seen fully

Beanstalk

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk

But when I actively bring myself to focus on what is being seen, then I struggle to see that there's no me doing it. The active things like deliberate focusing, exertion of effort and shifting attention are what I'm struggling with - not the decision to do them but the actual doing of them. When no-self has been accepted and understood, do deliberate actions cease to feel deliberate? Also I'm having particular trouble looking at focusing directly because I'm trying to focus on something and then focus on the focusing of it at the same time, so it is difficult to get a clear look at it.

Just consider driving a car.
There is the deliberate pressing of the gas-pedal,
the deliberate turning of the stirring wheel etc.

Is it necessary for the driver to identify with the car?
Something like: ‘I’m pressing the break-pedal and the car slows down –
so is this evidence that I AM the car?

(Well, there are some people who DO identify with their car. ( :
“This mighty me needs a big truck to get carried around…”)

Is it difficult to disidentify with the car?
Is it dangerous, fearful?
Is it something one has to accept or not accept?
What might happen when the driver realizes that he is not the car?

Warmly

nina

PS.:I might be travelling till the fifth.

[thursday123]

Nina,

Is it difficult to disidentify with the car?

I'm not sure. maybe if you've spent a long time identifying with it, but once it's seen it will probably seem pretty obvious

Is it dangerous, fearful?

no because nothing is really changing. just not seeing what's not there

Is it something one has to accept or not accept?

it wouldn't make much difference either way because it was never true to begin with

What might happen when the driver realizes that he is not the car?

nothing is likely to happen as long as they remember to carry on operating the pedals/steering

PS.:I might be travelling till the fifth.

no problem


Beanstalk

[thursday123]

Also, in the 'being as you are' exercise, when at the end it says:

'Notice that one thing that has been consistent throughout your
observation is the noticing itself.
While the contents or awareness – your sensations, emotions, and thoughts –
have been constantly changing, the context of awareness has not.
Rest as this silent awareness.
Let yourself be as you are.'

at this point i get a bit lost - when trying to notice 'the noticing itself' i don't know what i'm supposed to be looking for. does the 'context of awareness' just mean the awareness itself? because if the contents of awareness are changing, how can the context of awareness/awareness itself not also be changing? are awareness and the noticing of awareness not the same thing? because there's not awareness and the noticing of it, there's just awareness on its own


Beanstalk

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

at this point i get a bit lost - when trying to notice 'the noticing itself' i don't know what i'm supposed to be looking for.
does the 'context of awareness' just mean the awareness itself?

YES.

because if the contents of awareness are changing, how can the context of awareness/awareness itself not also be changing?
are awareness and the noticing of awareness not the same thing? because there's not awareness and the noticing of it, there's just awareness on its own

Yes, there is just awareness, so no subject - object movement.

Awareness doesn't have or need a context.
Awareness is there regardless of the objects being ‘awared’.
The objects in awareness change but the awareness itself is just there.
Sometimes it is referred as ‘being-ness’ or ‘I-am-ness’; but it is not so easy to put into words.

Maybe this little analogy might help:

There are three people sitting in front of a big TV-screen watching.

A fourth person comes in and questions each person: “What do you see?”
The first person answers: ‘I’m watching a movie.’
The second person says: ‘I see colours and shapes.’
And the third person says: ‘I see a screen.’

So there are three people watching the same and yet each one has a totally different experience.

‘Resting in awareness’ refers here to the noticing of the screen in which all experiences happen.
The screen is there regardless of what kind of movie is depicted on the screen.
Even without any movie it is still there as a screen.

‘Direct experience’ is what is noticed in awareness.
It is ‘direct’ or ‘actual’ because nothing is involved in here.
However awareness doesn't need any experience.
It is simply the background in which all this is happening.
As long as there is life in the body there will be always any kind of experience,
but awareness is not the experience.

I’m not sure if all this is making sense to you… ( ;

Is it difficult to disidentify with the car?

I'm not sure. maybe if you've spent a long time identifying with it, but once it's seen it will probably seem pretty obvious

Yes, the momentum is there…
Therefore it’s good to have some moments of clarity in which 'the head is raised above the water'.
In order not to get drowned in habits.
However once it is seen it is pretty obvious, sure.


Please try this:

Look into the mirror throughout the day.

Body image appears... notice that all that's really there are some colours,
and a thought-story saying 'these colours are my body'

When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of
these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Can you find any previous appearances of the body?
Where are they?
If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Where is all this looking happening?
Does this place has anything to do with the experience?

Do that for today and report back what you find.


Warmly

nina

[thursday123]

Nina,

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of
these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

there is no 'before' for the image and story to occur in - only the now. anything saying the image has been seen before is only a thought and can't be verified.

Can you find any previous appearances of the body?
Where are they?
If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

no, there are only thoughts so it cannot be known that the body has appeared before

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

yes

Where is all this looking happening?
Does this place has anything to do with the experience?

the looking isn't happening anywhere, or from any specific point. but it is within the looking that the experience occurs. so i think i see what you mean - the looking/awareness is just occurring all the time anyway, and the experience is whatever fills it, but at same time they're not two completely separate things. awareness is the capacity for experience, experience is just the objects that appear within the capacity. this is new to me, however - until now I thought awareness and experience meant the same thing


Beanstalk

[suma]

Dear Beanstalk,

the looking isn't happening anywhere, or from any specific point. but it is within the looking that the experience occurs. so i think i see what you mean - the looking/awareness is just occurring all the time anyway, and the experience is whatever fills it, but at same time they're not two completely separate things. awareness is the capacity for experience, experience is just the objects that appear within the capacity. this is new to me, however - until now I thought awareness and experience meant the same thing

Yes, you put is very well.

Now look at the ‘awareness’ itself, as in the exercise.
If you like, here is a simpler but rather similar one:

Sit comfortably, close your eyes and take a few deep breaths to settle in.
Notice your present experience.
Feel the various sensations of your body – touch, sound, taste, smell….
Be aware of the thoughts that arise and pass trough your mind like clouds
that come and go in the sky.
Don’t try to stop or change them.
Notice when your attention hops onto a train of thought.

Ask yourself: ‘What is this that is aware of thought?’
Don’t think about it.
Relax into the background awareness.
Notice the nature of this awareness.
Does it exist at any time other than now?
Can it be located in space?
Does it have any center or boundary?
Does it have any form at all?

Explore your experience of it.

Can this awareness be defined, or is it empty of all definitions?
Does it refuse anything, or is it open to all experience?
Is it unconscious, or is it awake, aware, and knowing?


Warmly

nina

[suma]

Excuse me,

should read:
You put it very well.

( :

[thursday123]

Nina,

Ask yourself: ‘What is this that is aware of thought?’
Don’t think about it.
Relax into the background awareness.
Notice the nature of this awareness.

I couldn't find what was aware of thought - only thought itself. it was the same for the rest of the exercise - i couldn't find anything other than experience. I considered the questions anyway, based on what I could find...

Does it exist at any time other than now?
Can it be located in space?

both no

Does it have any center or boundary?

I couldn't overlook the sense that there was a centre, around the middle of the felt sensations, although this seems like a regressive finding

Does it have any form at all?

only the form that experience takes

Can this awareness be defined, or is it empty of all definitions?

not exactly - words can be used to label aspects of the experience but they don't really come close to the lived reality of it. not sure if this is the same as awareness however

Does it refuse anything, or is it open to all experience?

it doesn't seem to, it just seems to be a never-ending flow of experience occurring. i'm not sure how anything could be refused

Is it unconscious, or is it awake, aware, and knowing?

awake, aware and knowing. I'm not sure why, i just got a strong feeling there was awareness and knowingness within experience, a sort of dynamism even when the experience was still and unchanging


Also, I have a question: how can it be known that awareness is there regardless of objects being 'awared'?


Beanstalk