seeing not just intellectualizing

[vinceschubert]

Where are you T, we need to keep a momentum happening.

vince

[tissetatten]

Did you read the article in the link that i sent you a couple of posts ago ?


No dont remember an article.. ill have to check if i can find it

[tissetatten]

Where are you T, we need to keep a momentum happening.

First you tell me stress ia not real and then when i dont stress to reply your asking where i am?

Im here i havent been gone long. And i dont k ow what article your refering to. Couldnt find it

[tissetatten]

Where are you T, we need to keep a momentum happening.

First you tell me stress ia not real and then when i dont stress to reply your asking where i am?

Im here i havent been gone long. And i dont k ow what article your refering to. Couldnt find it


Or did you mean this?


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EXPAND VIEW TOPIC REVIEW: SEEING NOT JUST INTELLECTUALIZING
Re: seeing not just intellectualizing
Post by tissetatten » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:31 am

Where are you T, we need to keep a momentum happening.
First you tell me stress ia not real and then when i dont stress to reply your asking where i am?

Im here i havent been gone long. And i dont k ow what article your refering to. Couldnt find it
Re: seeing not just intellectualizing
Post by tissetatten » Sun Dec 10, 2017 12:26 am

Did you read the article in the link that i sent you a couple of posts ago ?


No dont remember an article.. ill have to check if i can find it
Re: seeing not just intellectualizing
Post by vinceschubert » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:20 pm

Where are you T, we need to keep a momentum happening.

vince
Re: seeing not just intellectualizing
Post by vinceschubert » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:57 am

Good evening T,
you sigh and roll your eyes. Your stomach goes in or contracts, air comes out hard from your nose, eyes look up or do some kind of a movement to mark resistance. Its that sort of a feeling.
yes. This is a description of something without story attached. Excellent. There are no 'whys'. Just description.
So get this; As soon as you start talking ABOUT something, you get into concept. Story. It's a why, or a how, or a where or a when. It is ABOUT (something)
This is the moment when we have recognition that we are leaving description and entering a story. Here is where suffering starts.
Now if it happens, then it happens. We don't repress it. We are either lost in it, and there is no recognition. ..or there was recognition and we got lost in it anyway, or there was recognition and we celebrated it (the recognition)
What happens after we celebrate the recognition isn't something we attempt to control. Just being aware is enough.
I thought this would be delusion or repression?
No. There is no pretence here, nor are we denying anything.
Did you read the article in the link that i sent you a couple of posts ago ?

love

vince
Re: seeing not just intellectualizing
Post by tissetatten » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:09 pm

Hello

"i don't want to redo this." are thoughts. Feelings are sensations in the body. Can you remember where you felt sensations ? ..and what they were ?
Well its like the feeling when your frustrated and you sigh and roll your eyes. Your stomach goes in or contracts, air comes out hard from your nose, eyes look up or do some kind of a movement to mark resistance. Its that sort of a feeling.

This is why we celebrate the recognition with a real or imagined laugh.
The laugh changes the hormones in the body. The stress hormones get replaced with oxytocin (a feel good hormone)
When this happens the habitual behavior of heading into suffering gets short circuited.
I thought this would be delusion or repression?


What is the trigger for celebrating ?
From where i get a feeling that is unsuported?
Re: seeing not just intellectualizing
Post by vinceschubert » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:07 pm

Good evening T,
Well yes. I was fully aware of it, i saw the thought and i alsow saw the thought here maybe one can try to be unbothered or think happy thoughts but that seems disingenuous to me. The true feeling was i dont want to re do this.
Ok, two things here. Even though you saw the thoughts (very good), you still expressed the emotion(resistance) born of a story(I really don't want to redo this - i won't have time - it shouldn't have happened, etc) that followed (being aware of the thoughts)
Second thing; Trying to be unbothered is phoney. You were bothered. To repress this with happy thoughts, IS disingenuous.
The true feeling was i dont want to re do this.
Now, for the sake of this enquiry, we need to be more actual with our words. "i don't want to redo this." are thoughts. Feelings are sensations in the body. Can you remember where you felt sensations ? ..and what they were ?
But i always recognize it.
Excellent. For many people this is the hardest bit.
What you need to appreciate (big time) is that this is a critical point.
It is the point where we depart into suffering or not.
This is why we are developing the skill to see an opportunity to not descend into negative emotion.
This is why we celebrate the recognition with a real or imagined laugh.
The laugh changes the hormones in the body. The stress hormones get replaced with oxytocin (a feel good hormone)
When this happens the habitual behavior of heading into suffering gets short circuited.
Another thing is i feel i bit happy when ever i get anything done.
You didn't answer the question about a flipside...
/quote]
Well i think i did.
The flipside to feeling good as result of a sense of accomplishment, is that you feel the opposite of good if you don't accomplish something.
Wasint it all a story?
Yes there is stress.
This is sensation. Not story.
If i leave it for one day i might leavi it for 2 or 3 and start to slack. And then ill never get no where. And ill feel rude for keeping you waiting for a reply and maybe you wont want to do this.
This is story. It is the cause of the stress.
At what point? from the start. From the first stress thought.
Try again. What is the trigger for celebrating ?

love

vince
Re: seeing not just intellectualizing
Post by tissetatten » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:12 pm

Hi :)
Now, if you think back to when it happened, can you say that "what a pain" was the emotion (annoyance) and that you were so involved in it, that you couldn't do anything other than suffer ?
Well yes. I was fully aware of it, i saw the thought and i alsow saw the thought here maybe one can try to be unbothered or think happy thoughts but that seems disingenuous to me. The true feeling was i dont want to re do this.

Was the first time that you were aware of the thoughts objectively, when answering my question ?
Was (it) the firs time?

No.

Remember, celebrate the recognition of it.
But i always recognize it. I always watch my emotions.
You didn't answer the question about a flipside...
/quote]


Well i think i did.
A perfect example. In your answer, Can you see the story that you thought, that brought on the stress ?
A test: At what point would you celebrate ?
Wasint it all a story? The wole thing is a story. I dont know if ill slack i dont know if ill get "it" faster by answering i dont know if u think im rude.

At what point? from the start. From the first stress thought.

Thanx for the positive stuffbin this email :)
Re: seeing not just intellectualizing
Post by vinceschubert » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:34 pm

Good evening T,
What are those thoughts saying
Well they are saying crap my stupid phone erased my answers and now i have to re do them. What a pain.
When you answered this, you were able to see those thoughts from the outside (so to speak). That is you witnessed them without being involved in them. Without being carried away by emotion.
Now, if you think back to when it happened, can you say that "what a pain" was the emotion (annoyance) and that you were so involved in it, that you couldn't do anything other than suffer ?
Was the first time that you were aware of the thoughts objectively, when answering my question ?
Remember, celebrate the recognition of it.
Even if it is days later that you realize that you were swept up in emotion, then remember the thoughts that happened just before being swept up, and celebrate the recognition.
The recognition of that point, is the important thing. Not what the crap is.
Another thing is i feel i bit happy when ever i get anything done.
Can you see that there is a necessary flipside to this ? What is it ?
You didn't answer the question about a flipside...
Yes there is stress. If i leave it for one day i might leavi it for 2 or 3 and start to slack. And then ill never get no where. And ill feel rude for keeping you waiting for a reply and maybe you wont want to do this.
A perfect example. In your answer, Can you see the story that you thought, that brought on the stress ?
A test: At what point would you celebrate ?
Tell the story of waste
Well if i dont do anything for a whole day
Hmm, i need to be more specific with my questions. I wanted you to define waste. What is it ? (not a description of wasteful behavior)
i usually am very calm or more then most but then i crash i go deeper then most i think.
That sounds like the result of repression. If it doesn't burst out in over the top stuff, it carries you down to depression. The stories that you tell yourself to control emotion so work, but they have a recoil effect. This will change. (everything does)
Like right now forinstance iv been told that the place i work at is being foreclosed. And i dont know what is going to happen..
When you recognize that you are creating stories about what shit will happen, do celebrate the recognition of it.
I have noticed that a lot of ppl see things diferently then i do.
Stop! Don't compare yourself to others. Everybody is unique. ..and you can only imagine what it is like for others. (it's your interpretation)
their just doing some self help bs that they read or heard about.
i guess that's why you're here. You know that didn't work.
i do suffer when i see...
Remember, do celebrate the recognition of it.
women being threated like shit, denied rights, not being able to go to school, the forest being cut down, animals killed and so on. What story? I guess the story that everyone should have equal rights, that women own there bodys, and should be given a chans to study. That the forrest has a lot if wonderful plants that are medicin and they are the lung to our planet, that humans dont have the right to kill everything that is not them. Animals are innocent, have rights, dont deceve pain and deth.
i agree this stuff is not good. What about this stuff: Good news you probably didn't hear about

The fossil fuels divestment stories are coming thick and fast now. Norway's sovereign wealth fund is officially out, and the global insurance industry has pulled $20 billion.

A new report from the EU says that between 1990 and 2016 the continent cut its carbon emissions by 23% while the economy grew by 53%. C'mon Australia. CleanTechnica

Thanks to government welfare policies, the child-poverty rate in the United States has reached an all time low, dropping to 15.6% in 2016. The Atlantic

According to the World Health Organisation, global efforts to combat TB have saved an estimated 53 million lives since 2000 and have reduced the TB mortality rate by 37%.

Two weeks ago, Germany's top court ruled that lawmakers must legally recognize a third gender from birth. This will make it the first European nation to pass this kind of law. CNN

Victoria is poised to become the first Australian state to legalise euthanasia, after historic laws passed the upper house yesterday. The Age

Hot on India's heels, the Italian parliament has voted to ban the use of all animals in circuses and traveling shows. It joins 40 other nations with similar bans in place. Inhabit

Bowing to overwhelming scientific evidence, and pressure from environmental groups, the UK government has agreed to an extended ban on neonicotinoid pesticides. BBC

And finally... we know everyone heard about it, but we're including it anyway. AUSTRALIA VOTED YES TO GAY MARRIAGE (and had a serious party to celebrate it). About bloody time. Welcome to the 21st century everyone!

[tissetatten]

Did you mean the article about gay marrige inaustraila and outer positive stuff?
In that case yes i did read it

[vinceschubert]

Good evening T,

Did you mean the article about gay marriage in Austraila and other positive stuff?

No, this article; https://janfrazierteachings.com/the-dis ... #more-8289

First you tell me stress ia not real and then when i dont stress to reply your asking where i am?

No, i never said that stress is not real. It is very real. Most likely the cause of it is a story that may or may not be actual.
...and what i said was that if you're phone dies and you don't make a daily post, that that is not a big deal.
Is that the reason that you didn't post for the past 2 or 3 days ?
What has really changed for you that you didn't write ?
Going back to my previous post, do you get the difference between what is concept (story) and what is actual ?

vince

[tissetatten]

Hi..

Now i read the article..

Is that the reason that you didn't post for the past 2 or 3 days ?

No sometimes im bussy. But now im out of a job so maybe ill be less bussy...

What has really changed for you that you didn't write ?

Well i lost my job, so iv been really focust on that this week, and i stoped reading and watching videos about enlightenment. And i guess im thinking about what to do next. What to study, what work to look for, dealing with "real life" since i cant seem to get this whole non self thing. I better start making choices as if there is a person here. Im a bit disheartened about this whole thing.

Going back to my previous post, do you get the difference between what is concept (story) and what is actual ?

I guess so. Everything bodily, physical that happens is without story. Thoughts about the phusical is story. Like if i sigh, thats what happens, air comes out. If i tell myself i sigh because im fed up about this and that its a story.

/T

[vinceschubert]

Good evening T,

Now i read the article..

i thought that a fairly accurate description of being awake. What did you think as you read it ?

Well i lost my job, so iv been really focust on that this week,

Bummer. Hopefully a better job will turn up for you now.

i stoped reading and watching videos about enlightenment.

This is a good thing as far as our investigation goes.

dealing with "real life" since i cant seem to get this whole non self thing.

Ah, this no self thing, is about "real life". It's much more real than the story induced life that most people live.
Do you think that the future requires you to worry about it for it to turn out ok ?

I better start making choices as if there is a person here.

There is a person there, although circumstances will decide the choices. The idea that an I is making choices is delusional.
When a choice happens, if you look back at all of the conditions involved, you will clearly see that no other choice was possible.
Only the mind (thoughts) will say that an alternative was possible. This is to perpetuate the illusion that control exists. It is ego.

Im a bit disheartened about this whole thing.

i understand this. When you focus on success or failure, and it doesn't live up to your hopes and desires, you are bound to be disheartened.
The exercise was to forget all of that and focus on the point where actuality diverged into concept (story) and celebrate the recognition of that point.
Are you still doing this ?

I guess so. Everything bodily, physical that happens is without story. Thoughts about the phusical is story.

Yes. If it's ABOUT something, it is story.
Are you seeing the point where mind starts to go on about why and how ?

love

vince

[tissetatten]

Hi again...
I want feeling good last week. I was worryed and stressed, because cuse of the job thing.

There is a person there, although circumstances will decide the choices. The idea that an I is making choices is delusional.
When a choice happens, if you look back at all of the conditions involved, you will clearly see that no other choice was possible.
Only the mind (thoughts) will say that an alternative was possible. This is to perpetuate the illusion that control exists. It is ego.

You wrote something similar to me before. Its probably the best thing i read so far in this inquiry.
I think i need to look back more in this way it helps me see it.

Do you think that the future requires you to worry about it for it to turn out ok ?

Well i grew up an only child. Momma was mentally ill and couldnt be there for me, and dad was too bussy with everything and i didnt have siblings. And so i learned from a very young age that i could only depend on my self. I never ask for help or money, or advice or anything because i couldnt growing up. So iv learned to solve everything on my own and that has recured a lot of thinking. Iv deceloped a habit of tvinking about every possible scenario and outcome and solution to a future problem so i can be prepared and deal with it. (Or so i think) this is a mechanism that the mind has put in olace to reasure itself. To be calmer. I like to figure things out so im ready when something happens. Im scared of regretting not thinking of something i could have done for things better.. i do it to calm down. It feels like im active and not just going where ever the wind blows, but maybe thats not true.

The exercise was to forget all of that and focus on the point where actuality diverged into concept (story) and celebrate the recognition of that point.

I dont thing iv totally understood hlw to do this. Can you give me an example?

Are you still doing this ?

I am but without the books and the videos it seems to slipp my mind more. It seemed easier to do this kind of work while inspired by those things. Now i feel like im doing less. Like a step back. But maybe that is a good thing.

Yes. If it's ABOUT something, it is story.
Are you seeing the point where mind starts to go on about why and how ?

But the thing is i wouldnt feel a feeling without a story. I wouldnt sigh if i wasnt frustrated, i wouldnt be frustrated without something "happening". Am i to go around redoing texts and not caring? Not feeling, not reacting?


Love

/T

[vinceschubert]

Good evening T,

I was worried and stressed, because of the job thing.

How are you now with that ? (describe feelings - not why or how)

You wrote something similar to me before. Its probably the best thing i read so far in this inquiry.
I think i need to look back more in this way it helps me see it.

Very good. Let's explore it further. It may be your portal.

When a choice happens, if you look back at all of the conditions involved, you will clearly see that no other choice was possible.

Pick an (apparent) choice that you made recently (like what you had for breakfast)
Now, choice implies that there were alternatives considered.
Not that there were alternatives that couldhave beenconsidered.
If there were not alternatives considered, then it wasn't a choice.
If alternatives were considered, then list the conditions that led to the choice that was made.
Were some of those conditions outside your influence ?
If they were, then choice wasn't made by you, but determined by those conditions. (and all of the other conditions involved)
Apply this to an actual situation and do all of the things mentioned.
Very quickly you will see that a self making choices is an illusion. (when it's not seen, it's a delusion)

this is a mechanism that the mind has put in olace to reasure itself. To be calmer.

You are absolutely 'spot on' with this one.
All of those things that you give mind credit for, they would have happened anyway. ...and the mind would have been involved too, but as a worker, not a boss.

It feels like im active and not just going where ever the wind blows, but maybe thats not true.

Correct again. (it's not true) The feeling of being in control is necessary until you learn to trust that life can take care of itself. (which you will)

The exercise was to forget all of that and focus on the point where actuality diverged into concept (story) and celebrate the recognition of that point.

I dont thing iv totally understood hlw to do this. Can you give me an example?

You are now unemployed. That is a statement of fact. A description of the situation.
"what am I going to do ?" "how will I be able to pay my bills?" "Will I be able to find another job?" These are mind stuff. They are about the possible consequences that might happen in the future. They are concepts. Stories.
When the first of these stories appear, that is the point of divergence. That is where the suffering starts.
None of those thoughts are useful. None will make another job appear or pay the bills. All they do is induce stress.
Certainly they might feed the illusion that you are being responsible, and active. ..but that is part of the illusion.

Now i feel like im doing less. Like a step back. But maybe that is a good thing.

Yes, it is a good thing. There certainly is more space when life flows.

But the thing is i wouldnt feel a feeling without a story.

Oh, don't worry about that.
You will never be without stories. (or feelings) Once you learn to recognize stories, you will then learn to discriminate between useful stories and rubbish.
It is stories that create the world. You will just learn to create a better world. One more adaptive to feeling well.

love

vince
Oh, remember to give me your take on the article by Jan Frazier ?

[tissetatten]

Hi

How are you now with that ? (describe feelings - not why or how)

Im not good with feelings especially after the fact.
I get stressed and start to think of solutions like i told you before. And i start to plan, and think of what i have to do now or the next step. As far as feelings i feel contractions in the gut, anger, depressed, unwilling, unmotivated.
And then things have calmed down a bit im still worryed, i still feel it in my stomach but im more curious about whats next, the possibilitys, some hope creeps in.
A bit calmer but i wouldnt call it relaxed. Its both negative and poitive, it can turn scary at any moment if i let it but i try not to think like that.

Pick an (apparent) choice that you made recently (like what you had for breakfast)

Well i recantly ate chiapudding for breakfast at a hotel. So when i was shopping i thought i want to make chiapudding for tomorrows breakfast. As i was going to bed i saw a post on facebook about chia pudding, and i thought right i need to make that before bed so i can have it for breakfast tomorrow. When i woke up today i had to rush ro go to a meeting. I did not eat my chiapudding. I thought about it while still in bed and decided i rather sleep then get up and eat pudding. So i had a coffee for breakfast at the meating.

Now does that mean that i didnt decide go get up and eat the pudding or?

Well i guess i didnt pick what the hotel was going to serve. And i didnt choose what that other person would post on facebook.

But in the end i decided to stay in bed longer then to get up and eat the pudding.

Very good. Let's explore it further. It may be your portal.

I think it could be. If i do it right. I dont think i have the hang if it completly.

Oh, remember to give me your take on the article by Jan Frazier ?

Ok i will. Ill read it again and see what i can say about it.

You seem so confindent that "ill get this"

Oh, don't worry about that.
You will never be without stories. (or feelings) Once you learn to recognize stories, you will then learn to discriminate between useful stories and rubbish.
It is stories that create the world. You will just learn to create a better world. One more adaptive to feeling well.

Thank you for that :)

<3

[vinceschubert]

Good evening T,

I get stressed

..physical sensations.

start to think of solutions

the point of divergence.
Try this next time you recognize that you are stressed. The moment the mind starts searching for something to do, trust that a solution will present itself, and focus on your breathing. Dismiss thoughts as unnecessary. Don't suppress them. Just let them flow through. Let them come and go. Be busy watching the sensations of chest rising and falling. Of air coming in and going out of the body.
If you remember, then celebrate the recognition that this is the fork in the road.

i'm more curious about what's next, the possibilities, some hope creeps in.

Curiosity is excellent. Hope is a trap. Curiosity leaves you open to possibilities. Hope reduces them. ..but anyway it is good that you feel this way.

But in the end i decided to stay in bed longer then to get up and eat the pudding.

..and there were circumstances that led to that happening too. (tiredness, lack of hunger, available time, etc)

circumstances will decide the choices. The idea that an I is making choices is delusional.

It may be your portal.

I think it could be.

i didnt pick what the hotel was going to serve. And i didnt choose what that other person would post on facebook.

So can you see that you personally had influence on only some(very few) of the circumstances that led to the apparent choice ?

You seem so confident that "ill get this"

With good reason. Of all of the people that i've guided, the only ones that haven't 'got it', are those that quit before it happened.
You are persistent and motivated. These are the two main things for success here. You have them both in abundance.
The thing is that you have a lot of shit to let go of. So some of it may be a bit dramatic. Even if things get a little painful - just hang in there and it will pass. It will all be worth it.
Read that article...

love

vince

[tissetatten]

Hi again

So can you see that you personally had influence on only some(very few) of the circumstances that led to the apparent choice ?

Well i guess so.. But when im at the supermarket forinctance. What makes me pick chicken nuggets instead of broccholy or something heathy, i dont know..

With good reason. Of all of the people that i've guided, the only ones that haven't 'got it', are those that quit before it happened.
You are persistent and motivated. These are the two main things for success here. You have them both in abundance.

Aw thank you for saying that <3

The thing is that you have a lot of shit to let go of. So some of it may be a bit dramatic. Even if things get a little painful - just hang in there and it will pass. It will all be worth it.

What are the things i need to let go of? Anything u can inform me of?


I did read the article. And i will read it again. The person is explaning there experiance. I might agree if i ever have the same..

Love

/T

[vinceschubert]

Good evening T,

What makes me pick chicken nuggets instead of broccholy or something heathy, i dont know..

Same thing. The apparent (personal) choice is the result of conditions.
The obvious ones are the past experiences that have agreed with the body's taste buds.
The not so obvious ones are the availability of them. The packaging, the product placement, the affordability, circumstances in which you first tasted them, etc.

What are the things i need to let go of? Anything u can inform me of?

i'm not aware of the specifics. It's a story that i created to explain the elevated stress levels that seem to plague you, and from the things that you have mentioned about a difficult childhood that seem to be still affecting you.
Do you see that somebody is at fault in this ?

The person is explaining their experience. I might agree if i ever have the same..

i'm not after agreement or disagreement. i want you to find those points that she makes that you have experienced.


love

vince

[tissetatten]

Hi about the article

Oh, not everyone is instantly overcome by relief and joy, in the face of radical disappearance. There’s the occasional account of fear in the midst of the dissolution, a person’s worry they’ve lost their mind

This i defenetly experianced. 5 years ago i really thought id break and bever be able to function again. Everything that i knew as "me" was gone. I had no interests, drive, ambitions, even my mannerisms and smile were gone to i yest became flat and empty. I felt light and unreal, seethrough with nothing left of what i had come to know as Tisseratten, as the personality. They way i did things fell away, and plans anf interests too, i didnt even care if u were dead or alive. I had NO idea what had happended to me and it was the mist frightening time of my life.

To picture the movement horizontally rather than vertically, water rather than air . . . It may take some time to adjust to the feel of being tumbled along in onrushing water. Life has always been flowing water. Only now, with resistance and identity unwound, the feeling is of being the river.

Here im not shure of what she is saying but when i was in this state i wrota about in the quote abouve. I didnt feel like i was my body. I feelt like my body was transperant and i was the space around it. In the room. But it didnt feel like a river if felt more like a gray cloud.

There is no more sense of movement, no self-in-the-act-of-living (let alone self “at the mercy of life”). Life neither enhances nor diminishes you, as once you supposed. No, you are life. This moment of it.

This is maybe why i eventually wasnt scared of dying.
I dont think this life felt real, and it didnt matter anymore. It wasnt i feel so bad i want to die it was more i dont see the difference anymore.

What happened to that cherished self you always thought you were? Remember how heavy it was? How did you ever bear it for so long? (Never mind how did everybody around you endure the way you inflicted it on them.)

Such a relief.

Well it wasnt a relief for me. I just thought something was terrably wrong. All of a sudden i lost what made me me, what was once important, the goals, the strive to get better, the interests all fell away, the feelings of being moved or thouched and inspired. I tryied to be that person again, i tried to go back to regersing, practecing, doing what i had loved and dedicated hours a day to. But i just couldnt anymore. "It" what ever was driving so much wasnt there anymore.



Well i guess thats as much as i can relate to that article.