Help needed please

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WesleySPK
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Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:21 pm

Hi Nina,
thoughts talking to 'me'
To me or about me? Are either of these a self, or are they thoughts?

Are thoughts a physical self?
Yesterday morning I woke up, thoughts of 'what needs doing' came up and a plan was formed the day; I have a question about this process - it seems like the thoughts occur and the plan is formed from them (not 'by' them though) - is this the case or is the plan somehow formed and then the thoughts come and claim it?
Rather than me telling you, describe to me how it works right now. What are you going to do later today/tonight? What would you like to do? Observe how it works and let me know.

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

nerina
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Re: Help needed please

Postby nerina » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:07 pm

Hi Wesley,
thoughts talking to 'me'
To me or about me? Are either of these a self, or are they thoughts?
Thoughts talk both to 'me' and as if they are 'me'. Neither of these are a self, just persistent thoughts. Thoughts are not a self.
Rather than me telling you, describe to me how it works right now. What are you going to do later today/tonight? What would you like to do? Observe how it works and let me know.
After writing this I need to take the dog out for a pee, clean the washing machine and disconnect it as it is being collected tomorrow, I was planning to do a survey (work) but it's getting a bit late now so I'll re-schedule that. I really should clean the house but I doubt it will get done. What will probably happen is that I'll cook tea, have a beer and watch something, while thinking that I should be doing something more productive :-) When I thought of the question it seemed like thoughts arose, more thoughts organised them into a plan and this was followed throughout the day.
Hug,
Nina

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WesleySPK
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Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:12 am

Hi Nina,
Thoughts talk both to 'me' and as if they are 'me'.
Where is this 'me' that thoughts talk to, can you find it?

So in regards to your plans, is there a you thinking the thoughts, and planning? Or are there thoughts, and then decisions and actions being carried out effortlessly?

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

nerina
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Re: Help needed please

Postby nerina » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:33 pm

Hi Wesley,
Where is this 'me' that thoughts talk to, can you find it?
The me that thoughts talk to (and as) doesn't exist and can't be found.
So in regards to your plans, is there a you thinking the thoughts, and planning? Or are there thoughts, and then decisions and actions being carried out effortlessly?
There are just thoughts and then decisions and actions are carried out.
Thanks for your patience :-)
Nina

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WesleySPK
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Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:16 pm

Hi Nina,
Thanks for your patience :-)
Of course :)

So, is there anything that corresponds to the label "self" or "me"? Look as earnestly as you can for what could possibly be found in your experience that is a 'me'.

Looking forward to what you find,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

nerina
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Re: Help needed please

Postby nerina » Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:00 am

Hi Wesley,
So, is there anything that corresponds to the label "self" or "me"? Look as earnestly as you can for what could possibly be found in your experience that is a 'me'.
The 'me' is just feelings and thoughts attached to the body. There's no real 'me', just thoughts and experiences which weave together and create a (very convincing) illusion of self.
Hug,
Nina

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WesleySPK
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Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Fri Oct 27, 2017 9:50 pm

Hi Nina,

Sorry for my late reply, I am in the countryside on vacation and haven't had a good connection.
The 'me' is just feelings and thoughts attached to the body. There's no real 'me', just thoughts and experiences which weave together and create a (very convincing) illusion of self.
Could you write a little about how you found this,where you looked in your experience? Maybe look now and describe exactly what's happening in the moment, tell me simply what you see and what you don't see :).

If there is any doubt, please describe that doubt as clearly as possible.

Big hug to you,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

nerina
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Re: Help needed please

Postby nerina » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:29 am

Hi Wesley,
No problem - enjoy your holiday and don't worry about finding internet signal to respond, I can wait :-)
The 'me' is just feelings and thoughts attached to the body. There's no real 'me', just thoughts and experiences which weave together and create a (very convincing) illusion of self.
Could you write a little about how you found this,where you looked in your experience? Maybe look now and describe exactly what's happening in the moment, tell me simply what you see and what you don't see :).
Looking at what is here - the computer screen, the view of trees moving outside the window, the clock ticking, dog snoring, body sensations of warmth and pressure, breathing. Just raw experience of sight, sound and sensations and no self. Then thoughts rush in 'Look for the self, LOOK, relax and see it's not there...etc' There are moments when there is a glimpse of nothingness and the illusion of self is seen, but then thinking cuts back in and tries to explain and grab hold of what just happened. There is a tendency to try and figure this out and overthink things. I don't see others (or even other living things) as not having selves, so there is still a way to go. A lot of this probably stems from childhood - a vivd imagination and too much stuff like Watership down (rabbit world saga) and Disney!
Massive hug back,
Nina

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WesleySPK
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Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:03 pm

Hi Nina,

Your description of what's happening is wonderful, thank you for that. You are seeing what's really here, you just need to see what makes you think there's something more to see.
There are moments when there is a glimpse of nothingness and the illusion of self is seen
How is it seen? What are it's characteristics? How long do you see it for, and where do you see it?
I don't see others (or even other living things) as not having selves, so there is still a way to go.
Do you mean to say you don't think of other living things as not having selves? Do you physically see a self, or a not self?

Big hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

nerina
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Re: Help needed please

Postby nerina » Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:18 pm

Hi Wesley,
There are moments when there is a glimpse of nothingness and the illusion of self is seen
How is it seen? What are it's characteristics? How long do you see it for, and where do you see it?
It's hard to describe, it's like there's nothing there, everything stops and a sort of falling feeling or gasp. It only lasts a moment and then thoughts rush in to analyse and explain the experience. 'Here' is the only thing I can say about where, and 'empty' is the only characteristic that comes close. Maybe this is just another experience and not actually seeing that a self doesn't exist.
I don't see others (or even other living things) as not having selves, so there is still a way to go.
Do you mean to say you don't think of other living things as not having selves? Do you physically see a self, or a not self?
Yes, I don't think of other living things as not having selves, I see other living things as separate entities and other people as usually being in control of their actions, so I need to keep looking at this.
Big hug,
Nina

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WesleySPK
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Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:55 am

Hi Nina,
It's hard to describe, it's like there's nothing there, everything stops and a sort of falling feeling or gasp. It only lasts a moment and then thoughts rush in to analyse and explain the experience. 'Here' is the only thing I can say about where, and 'empty' is the only characteristic that comes close. Maybe this is just another experience and not actually seeing that a self doesn't exist.
Sounds lovely :). Whether it's actually seeing that a self doesn't exist or not may not matter because you are seeing that a self doesn't exist 100% of the time whether you know it or not.
Yes, I don't think of other living things as not having selves, I see other living things as separate entities and other people as usually being in control of their actions, so I need to keep looking at this.
How you are interpreting/thinking about someone may always be that they have a self. But what's important is that if you pay attention to what you actually see, is there a self? Can you physically see the self that they have? If you can't, then where is this coming from?

I'd like to you again pick up an object near you, perhaps something that's always there resting for you to pick it up when you're in doubt. Look at the object and concentrate on the raw sense information of it. What does it feel like? Does it taste like anything? Smell? What can you see? What can't you see?

AND...What is added by thought? While doing this, notice what role thoughts are playing. If it's a mug that you pick up at look closely at, notice how at first it may just seem like a normal mug, there may be all sorts of thoughts overlaying what's there. As you continue to look, just focus on the "what is seen/heard/smelled/tasted/touched" and "what is thought".

Then do the exact same exercise on the self - where is it? What can be seen/felt/heard/tasted/touched, and what is thought? You may even became aware of the absence of a self through noticing the absence of a "mug" when looking at a mug. Just what's really there...But in the case of self, what's not here ;).

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

nerina
Posts: 74
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Location: Mid Wales

Re: Help needed please

Postby nerina » Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:18 pm

Hi Wesley,
How you are interpreting/thinking about someone may always be that they have a self. But what's important is that if you pay attention to what you actually see, is there a self? Can you physically see the self that they have? If you can't, then where is this coming from?
No, I can't physically see others' selves, I just see bodies moving and talking and assume they have selves, so this is just a thought.
I'd like to you again pick up an object near you, perhaps something that's always there resting for you to pick it up when you're in doubt. Look at the object and concentrate on the raw sense information of it. What does it feel like? Does it taste like anything? Smell? What can you see? What can't you see?
I pick up a pencil sharpener that sits on the desk. It is brightly coloured and feels smooth, cold at first and warming from the heat of being held. It smells of pencil shavings and tastes metallic. All I can actually see is colour, everything else is a thought description; nothing can be described without thought / words. Even 'colour' is a thought description, actual experience is indescribable.
AND...What is added by thought? While doing this, notice what role thoughts are playing. If it's a mug that you pick up at look closely at, notice how at first it may just seem like a normal mug, there may be all sorts of thoughts overlaying what's there. As you continue to look, just focus on the "what is seen/heard/smelled/tasted/touched" and "what is thought".
Everything is added by thought, the description of colour, shape, size, texture, smell etc, plus comments about how long I've had it, the slightly dusty top that could do with a clean, the fact it needs emptying... It's hard to take in the raw experience without thoughts describing what is seen and felt. By rotating the object in my hands the experience becomes more abstract somehow and there is a pattern of sight and sensation without as much thought.
Then do the exact same exercise on the self - where is it? What can be seen/felt/heard/tasted/touched, and what is thought? You may even became aware of the absence of a self through noticing the absence of a "mug" when looking at a mug. Just what's really there...But in the case of self, what's not here ;).
Eyes shut, the first thing to happen is a thought 'what is the self', nothing is seen, bodily sensations of warmth and pressure are felt. noises are heard, an incessant ringing in one ear which provokes the thought 'I need to get this bloody tinnitus sorted out'. Breathing, clock ticking, more sensations. Eyes open, colours and thoughts rushing in to describe what is seen. Another thought 'there's just experience' hmm this is still more a though than an actual experience....There's just the indescribable feeling of being alive and thoughts add everything else.
Hug,
Nina

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WesleySPK
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Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Sat Nov 04, 2017 11:40 pm

Hi Nina,

Great findings :).

So, does self exist as a real entity?

Is life happening to someone?

Is someone thinking thoughts?

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei

nerina
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:18 am
Location: Mid Wales

Re: Help needed please

Postby nerina » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:05 pm

Hi Wesley,
So, does self exist as a real entity?
No, self is just the product of thoughts labelling sensations and experience.
Is life happening to someone?
No, life is just happening.
Is someone thinking thoughts?
No, thoughts just appear by themselves.
Hug,
Nina

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WesleySPK
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Re: Help needed please

Postby WesleySPK » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:04 am

Hi Nina,

Thanks for the answers, at this point is there any doubt?

Hug,
Wesley
"See with your eyes, hear with your ears, nothing is hidden."-Zen Master Tenkei


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