feels like I'm close

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,

Just wanted to let you know that things are much better now than when I wrote you the previous post. You can ignore it if you want, sorry for writing such a panicky statement!

No worries Peter. You are diving deep into questions of existence and reality. Some treading of water is to be expected!


Answer this question for me:
What is your definition of real?

Consider this statement:
"Nothing unreal exists. Nothing real can be threatened.
Real is that which does not disappear when you stop believing in it."

What comes up for you when you read this?

You can be assured - nothing is going to disappear. The colors, sounds, sensations, taste, smell, knowing - all remain.


Warm regards,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

No worries Peter. You are diving deep into questions of existence and reality. Some treading of water is to be expected!

it's true. The past few days have been so turbulent and confusing. I have been going through episodes of depression and peace. I want this to end, I really want to stop being afraid that I will find out that things that are very dear to me will disappear - the realness of my family members, my love for them, the realness of the surrounding world and people, which I have been feeling in the past, the realness of joy, peace, and being alive.

Answer this question for me:
What is your definition of real?

- it's just a feeling of aliveness, realness, and existence. I can feel it more strongly when I am at peace. I remember feeling it very clearly for instance when I've woken up in the morning before the mind started working in its usual mode. Also, it comes up when I think about certain things - people, pleasant memories, happy parts of the story of Peter. The connection I feel with other people also feels real, both when they are with me and when I think about them.

"Nothing unreal exists. Nothing real can be threatened.
Real is that which does not disappear when you stop believing in it."
What comes up for you when you read this?

- it gives me a relief, and also makes me wonder what is real, i.e. whether physical matter is real, whether love, joy, aliveness, consciousness, being are real. So I'm afraid I might find out that those aren't real, and then wouldn't be able to feel them. I'm afraid the only reason they've felt real is because the I thought has been believed to be a real someone, and that has been causing the feelings of existence, love, and joy to be. Dennis, I see the absurdity of it, but a part of me still believes it, why?? I believe that these beliefs might be true! I identified them and similar ones yesterday and today, and I've been questioning them, which has decreased the belief in them, but it's still here.

You can be assured - nothing is going to disappear. The colors, sounds, sensations, taste, smell, knowing - all remain.

- good, but when I read that, fearful doubts arise again: what if they don't seem real anymore, that would be both scary and will make it unable to enjoy them. Also, what do you mean by knowing?

That's the situation right now, Dennis. What can I tell you, I wish I didn't have to go through all of this, I wish life was much easier for me and everybody else, and at the same time I don't want it to change too much, I only want the scary stuff out... When I speak to people, I hear my voice and wonder who's speaking, where it's coming from, it doesn't feel personal anymore, nor do actions, and many thoughts don't. I can clearly feel that I am alive at times, yet I feel I am not this body and thoughts, but then why am I only aware of them? I wish things were much more ordinary and simple than this, and not so scary :(
I don't want this to continue for long. I just want to feel that I exist and that other people exist, and to be peaceful, even if I don't know who I am. I want to keep caring for the people I love and to keep wanting to be with them, share intimate moments with them, and to be able to do that. I'm afraid I might find out that they are completely trapped in an illusion and then I will freak out...

God, if you are real, please help me get through this! Please give me some consolation and encouragement. If reality is not as bad as I imagine, please help me realize that! Most of all, I don't want the feeling of being alive, my love for my close people to disappear, and the realness and aliveness of those people to disappear. That's all I'm begging for! There is such dread and desperation when I consider that I might lose those things! I don't want to ever lose those things!!!

That's all I want to say for now... sorry if you don't feel like this is the place to express all of this, but it is really relieving to get it out and share it with someone, and I can't think of another place. I noticed that a lot of people have read this thread, so whoever is reading this and going through the same, maybe we can get in touch and support each other. We can also meet up if you live in the Netherlands, connect with one another and support each other in this world where we have no idea what's going on, what's real and what isn't.

It's very relieving to share all of this. It just doesn't work to suppress any doubts and pretend that they aren't bothering me and driving me crazy, and at times desperate.

Love and blessings,
Peter

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

It seems like the self-story cannot be bought into anymore, it becomes recognized as false when it occurs. The same goes for past and future. All there is, is a flow of things happening spontaneously within one awareness in this only moment. Future projections keep happening and keep being recognized as pointless. There has also been a repetative noticing that noticing happens by itself. There is no one in control right here now. You can say there has never been, but that sentence assumes that time exists. Time and self can only arise as a thought now

Best,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,


Good to see your words. I've been away from a computer for some days...but I'm back now.

Peter said:
All there is, is a flow of things happening spontaneously within one awareness in this only moment. Time and self can only arise as a thought now.

I hear what you're saying. Very good you notice that. You're moving in the right direction. :)

Keep noticing - here, now, this moment. Just listen, watch, sense, know.

How does it feel to see this?


With love,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

I hear what you're saying. Very good you notice that. You're moving in the right direction. :)

Keep noticing - here, now, this moment. Just listen, watch, sense, know.

How does it feel to see this?

- well, the content of thoughts is much easier seen as not real. The mind has never been able to stay quiet for such long periods of time. In this state of quiet mind, the moment feels real and simple. Nothing seems to be wrong unless certain thoughts arise. It isn't a happy state but it's neutral. When I wake up, the conditioning kicks in and I start to panic, but this is handled better with every consecutive morning. There is the belief that some radical transformation is on the way, but that belief doesn't feel real. The confusing thing is that images of people and things come with a sense of realness, even though the content of thoughts isn't real. Also, some thoughts, like "there's nothing to worry about", "everything will remain ordinary", "reality is simple, kind, and familiar" feel true.

How do you manage to stay peaceful knowing that beliefs are not true? Knowing that you cannot understand reality with thoughts? I'm really curious

Best Wishes,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,

Peter said:
"- well, the content of thoughts is much easier seen as not real. The mind has never been able to stay quiet for such long periods of time. In this state of quiet mind, the moment feels real and simple."

Excellent work Peter.

You mention thoughts and beliefs. Questions: Which belief is real? Is there a belief that is truth?

Stay with your direction. Take the fork in the path that feels "quiet, real and simple".

Continue to notice and listen - sense, watch, know, feel. Let this evolve, then tell how it feels.


Warmly,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

Take the fork in the path that feels "quiet, real and simple".

you mean take the path that feels "quiet, real and simple" right? I'm not sure what the expression "take the fork" means.

You mention thoughts and beliefs. Questions: Which belief is real? Is there a belief that is truth?

- no belief is truth or real

Warmly,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi there Peter,

Again, good work! :)

Dennis said:
Take the fork in the path that feels "quiet, real and simple".

you mean take the path that feels "quiet, real and simple" right? I'm not sure what the expression "take the fork" means.

It means the path breaks into two paths and you can pick one. The path of least resistance, is the path that feels simple and kind. I suggest taking the path where "reality is simple, kind, and familiar" feels true.

Dennis said:
You mention thoughts and beliefs. Questions: Which belief is real? Is there a belief that is truth?

- no belief is truth or real

Ok.
4 questions:
Why is that so?
How do you know?
How do you experience this?
And how does it feel to see this??


Warmly,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

It means the path breaks into two paths and you can pick one. The path of least resistance, is the path that feels simple and kind. I suggest taking the path where "reality is simple, kind, and familiar" feels true.

thank you for the pointer, it's great to know that there is such an option. There is definitely something obviously real, simple, kind, natural, dear, familiar in life, but it cannot be understood and it's difficult to disentangle it from thoughts and beliefs.

- no belief is truth or real

Ok.
4 questions:
Why is that so?

- beliefs and thoughts don't feel real. Direct experience in the present moment, without interpretations, feels real.

How do you know?

by comparing the state of thinking to the state of experiencing the present moment without (or with very little) thinking.

How do you experience this?

- being lost in thinking causes reduced alertness, negativity, and a feeling of being lost in a dream; being present and focused on DE comes with a feeling of naturalness, simplicity, alertness, realness, familiarity, and a feeling that all those worrisome beliefs which make life seem scary and complicated "just can't be right, there's something obviously wrong about them, it's all rubbish, how could I have fallen for any of this?". Also, in the state of stillness with very little thinking, the world becomes much more beautiful and fresh, and familiarity and dearness emanates from everything. So why would anyone choose the first state? In both states there's no control, but in the latter everything is much more peaceful. There has never been control, and that's fine. There is no one to lose control to anyone or anything. There are no two things: no separate thought, action, or awareness. Nothing belongs to anything or anyone. Everything is one and it works for itself as one alive system. There is nothing alien to something else.

And how does it feel to see this??

- it's really relieving to recognize beliefs as not true. Nobody does it, it just happens (thank God!). There is peace which comes with the noticing that past, future, the threatened self, and negative beliefs are only beliefs. Only a belief can be threatened, fear always protects beliefs/labels. Only an imaginary someone is protected by fear: without imagining a someone, there is nothing to protect. In the present moment everything is fine: no realization is needed, no thought or belief needs to disappear (if they don't appear right now, that's already been taken care of). If they appear, they are not real, only labels. So nothing needs to change really. Thought can still be used without taking its content for real.

Best Wishes,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,

Your reply is beautiful.

Dennis said:
Which belief is real? Is there a belief that is truth?

- no belief is truth or real.

Ok. Why is that so?

- beliefs and thoughts don't feel real. Direct experience in the present moment, without interpretations, feels real.

Really nice!

How do you know?

...by comparing the state of thinking to the state of experiencing the present moment without (or with very little) thinking.

Awesome work.

How do you experience this?

being present and focused on DE comes with a feeling of naturalness, simplicity, alertness, realness, familiarity, in the state of stillness with very little thinking, the world becomes much more beautiful and fresh, and familiarity and dearness emanates from everything.

Like angels with trumpets! :)

And how does it feel to see this??

- it's really relieving to recognize beliefs as not true. There is peace which comes with the noticing that past, future, the threatened self, and negative beliefs are only beliefs. Only a belief can be threatened, fear always protects beliefs/labels. Only an imaginary someone is protected by fear: without imagining a someone, there is nothing to protect. In the present moment everything is fine: no realization is needed, no thought or belief needs to disappear (if they don't appear right now, that's already been taken care of). If they appear, they are not real, only labels. So nothing needs to change really.

You are in a very sweet place, Peter.

How about we let this unfold for you for a few more days? Always return back to the body, to here and now, to experience. The breath is a good focus from time to time, back to ground.

You can check in with me anytime if you feel the need. What do you say?



Walking along with you,
Best wishes,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

How about we let this unfold for you for a few more days? Always return back to the body, to here and now, to experience. The breath is a good focus from time to time, back to ground.

You can check in with me anytime if you feel the need. What do you say?

yes, good idea. Although waiting for something to unfold suggests that someone isn't complete yet and needs to realize something, but when that thought occurs it's noticed (luckily), so that's a good sign.

Thank you for walking with me!

Love and blessings,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,

I'm checking in. How are you?

Best,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for checking in. I hope you're doing well.

I am doing fine. The mind is usually still, expectations are shrinking, the inter-connectedness of everything is becoming more clear with time and patience and without trying to push things. When I look in the mirror, the body doesn't seem to be something separate. Sometimes there are fearful thoughts, but they are recognized as simply thoughts which aren't needed and without which everything is fine right now, so they don't cause much trouble anymore. There has been a plenty of negative energy that has been slowly burning up by surrendering to the moment. Sometimes I have to lie down and keep rocking the body so that the energy is released. At times of successful surrender, I break into a smile or start laughing - hopefully that's a good sign.

It doesn't feel right when a thought comes up claiming that some big shift must happen or that there's a lot that needs to change yet in order for things to be fine the way they are. This quiet, alive stillness which is here now reveals everything as familiar, natural, simple, and peaceful. All that's needed is to quiet down the mind. It feels right to not believe that something is missing now or that reality is much more complicated than has been believed to be. When I interact with people, I feel their presence and alive consciousness and it makes me more grounded and reminds me that everything is fine and there is nothing supernatural or paranormal to worry about.

Love,
Peter

[Dennis90405]

Hi Peter,

I am smiling as I read your reply. :)

Peter said:
There has been a plenty of negative energy that has been slowly burning up by surrendering to the moment. Sometimes I have to lie down and keep rocking the body so that the energy is released. At times of successful surrender, I break into a smile or start laughing - hopefully that's a good sign.

Its a wonderful sign!

Peter said:
This quiet, alive stillness which is here now reveals everything as familiar, natural, simple, and peaceful...When I interact with people, I feel their presence and alive consciousness and it makes me more grounded and reminds me that everything is fine and there is nothing supernatural or paranormal to worry about.

Beautiful.

This is not about waiting for something to happen but about noticing what is already happening here now. There is nothing to wait for.

I have a couple of questions for you Peter.
Since beginning your inquiry here at LU, what has changed for you in normal every day situations and ordinary happenings?
And what hasn't changed?


With love,
Dennis

[Petar]

Hi Dennis,

This is not about waiting for something to happen but about noticing what is already happening here now. There is nothing to wait for.

Yes, absolutely. Waiting for something to happen is the only thing which can cause a problem. It has always been like this - nothing has ever been problematic, it's the thoughts that something is wrong and the mental expectation of a better moment when it will get fixed, these thoughts have always been the only problem (although even those thoughts are okay if they're not judged as problematic by other thoughts).

I have a couple of questions for you Peter.
Since beginning your inquiry here at LU, what has changed for you in normal every day situations and ordinary happenings?
And what hasn't changed?

What has changed:
- The compulsion to label and understand things and people and to plan the future has dropped significantly. This is mainly because there is a strong negative feeling that immediately arises when such thoughts come up.
- I have become more humble, much less socially anxious, and I don't care much about how I look
- I'm not thinking about the future much and I'm not so worried about the work I have to do and whether I will succeed
- Other people feel much less like separate beings
- My body doesn't feel like something separate when I see it in the mirror, more like a character that's part of the whole. The same goes for when I hear my voice
- I don't feel the need to hear or read much spiritual advice from teachers or books. It doesn't help much anymore, but rather brings about confusion.

What hasn't changed:
- There is still a sense of existing, plus sensations, feelings, and thoughts (thank God! Hope these will remain)
- No supernatural experiences or phenomena yet
- I still freak out from time to time as to what the nature of reality is, what might happen with this new way of life
- I still love and care about people, animals, etc.
- I still haven't been able to become truly peaceful, there is still some underlying insecurity most of the time - sometimes it's very faint and even completely gone, and sometimes much more pronounced. This fear is always associated with a self-thought, it never comes without a self-thought. It's always about it and always a result of it. The only solution to this that I take is noticing that it's only a thought and that aliveness is still here, now, in DE.

Love,
Peter