Some help would be fantastic!

[marcel2]

hmm, that would be odd indeed. but it feels like if resistance arise, and it should be acknowledged and not resisted, shouldn't the resistance to resistance also be acknowledged and not resisted and so on in infinity?
overthinking it perhaps... but where is the line between accepting and acting? between accepting and indulging? between just letting feelings come and go and getting caught up...
yes it's automatic, everything really is automatic! why would one "choose" resistance etc... still it's hard not to get caught up sometimes. the problem is maybe that there are thoughts and feelings that does not want automatic, that wants power. they of course also arise and pass away!

[Ilona]

What is resistance without a label?
What is you name that sensation frustration, intensity, or just raw energy passing through?

Is there an option to let things happen or not let happen? Thighs are happening already, right here right now, can you switch what is here on or off?

Sending love

[marcel2]

interesting, seems I got lost in words... it is just a sensation really. sometimes it's obvious that the mind scrambles for a label for the sensation arising

no, they just happen. it's just that sometimes the thought that the things happening shouldn't happen arises, or that it may be a way for the stuff happening to not happen. but that is of course also just happening... oh boy

[Ilona]

Yeah, there are those sticky thoughts that say what should and what should not be happening. and yes, they are simply arising too, like everything else. does it mean they say truth?
should and shouldn't, want and don't want thoughts are showing resistance to what is. and it can be helpful to notice them as they point to something unresolved, something that want's to be seen, examined..
you can look through the day and notice those thoughts. what are they saying, what should be different?
what is not as should be?
what wants to happen?

write to me what you notice
sending love!

[marcel2]

no, not truth necessarily, but they trigger stronger responses and maybe therefore are perceived as more "important" than the less sticky thoughts
they are not "saying" that much, just that familiar sensations are triggered when certain thoughts arise, signaling "change".
don't know how things should be really, but the mind can of course come up with something fanciful that it feels would make stuff better. or rather a thought of *something* else happening when bored, stressed etc.
hmm... maybe actually there's nothing that wants to happen, that nothing really wants to happen, just that certain thoughts are just triggered, or feelings are triggered, labeled "change"...

[Ilona]

Yes, yes, sensations are triggered when certain thoughts arise.
Now look where thoughts are coming from?
Wait for the next thought and see where is it coming from?
Can you know what the next thought will be before it arises?
Can you stop thinking thoughts at will? Try that.
Can you stop a thought in a middle?
Is there a thinker of thoughts?
Can a thought think?
Can a thought do anything?

Observe this closely and write what you find out.

Sending love

[marcel2]

no, thoughts just arise. sometimes the content of thought "predicts" next thought, or "predicts" that continuing train of thought will be unpleasant. no, cannot stop thinking at will, but during meditation they slow down sometimes. it seems to be no thinker, the thinker itself is a thought... can they be stopped in the "middle", hmm, where is the beginning and end of "one thought", it's really just a stream of thoughts, sometimes with bigger spaces between them, sometimes smaller.
can a thought do anything? hmm, it can trigger stuff, like feelings, or another thought. they can certainly lead to action, or so it seems anyway, but how much is causation and how much is correlation, impossible to tell really. depending on mood etc the same thought (or what seems to be the same thought) can have vastly different effects. sometimes a sad thought triggers feelings of sadness and continuing sad thoughts, sometimes a positive counter argument arises, sometimes the sad thought just passes.

[Ilona]

Thank you for looking! Good to notice that there is no thinker, just a stream of thoughts, one after another, one thought at a time.

Here is something for you to read, is that I think it would be helpful at this time
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... g.html?m=1

Write what feels true to you about thinking process. Is thinking something what you do or something that informs about where attention goes? Or how do you see it?

Sending love

[marcel2]

yes, that blog post seems very true. to truly describe how something smells is actually impossible... reminds me of the earlier test with labeling "to sit" and the actual sensation of sitting.
sometimes it certainly feel like thinking informs attention, like before knowing about certain "spiritual" stuff attention would never go to certain places that it now goes to. did thinking inform this? hard to tell really. thinking definitely seem to be working by itself, it's extra clear sometimes when I have to do something creative, like writing a speech for a wedding this past week; I just waited for the words to arise, being confident that they would (do creative work so I trust in the minds ability to come up with stuff). the process feels very "automatic". other thoughts feel less so, maybe because other thoughts are less pleasurable. but there really is no fundamental difference as far as I can see.

[Ilona]

Can you say with a big fat YES that it's clear that separate entity is an illusion?
If not, what doubts are there? What else can we look at?
How does answering this make you feel?

Sending love

[marcel2]

some sort of shift has definitely been felt during this past month, sometimes that big fat YES can almost be felt, like seen in the corner of eye. but no, no big fat yes yet :)
where is the doubts left... I don't know exactly. there still lingers some, almost "generic", doubt, although I cannot exactly pin point it. there is still some random resistances, but it's hard to say exactly towards what exactly. the hardest thing is perhaps the feeling of separation between "me"/"my conscious experience" and "the world". but now, as opposed to earlier in life, this separation makes no sense, still it is somehow assumed...
it makes me feel some frustration, like trying to solve a puzzle where some piece seems to be missing. there is a feeling of not really getting it, but not really understanding where the problem is or what it's supposed to be.

[Ilona]

if that puzzle still feels unfinished, then yeah, something is still there that wants to be resolved.

the hardest thing is perhaps the feeling of separation between "me"/"my conscious experience" and "the world". but now, as opposed to earlier in life, this separation makes no sense, still it is somehow assumed...

such crystallised beliefs like this one, may have inertia and will require more investigation.
tell me, how do you know if there is or there isn't world outside of your experience? how do you experience the world? where is the line between you and the world? is there an individual entity that is separate from the movement of totality? how do you know that?
what is separate from what precisely?

look as well, how do you perceive other people? do you hear their thoughts or only your thoughts about their thoughts?

in a dream, when you interact with other people, you wake up in the morning and know that all that was experienced was your mind appearing as separate characters and interacting with itself. how is this different in waking state? which character are you controlling in waking state?

this is plenty for you to play with. write when you have looked!

sending love

[marcel2]

I know of no other world than the one I experience, which is just experienced. very small parts of the whole world seem to be experienced by "me" while the biggest part seem to exist outside of own experience. but there seem to be no line really, just... there is no clear line, but there's no "line" where the bald man becomes bald either, even though there seem to exist bald men and men that are not bald. :)
yeah what is separated from what indeed... individual entity... hmm hmm. have to keep playing with this!

I hear some of their thoughts when they speak and also body language etc. when I hear someone speak, I hear a thought, and when it's heard, the difference between that thought and my thought does not really seem to be fundamental. then of course my thoughts rush in and interpret, argue etc. but it seem to be more a difference in medium, the conversation moving to a different room...

very true about the dream. I've actually reflected on that earlier, that some dreams have felt extremely vivid and profound, in some ways more "real" than the waking state. it may not be so different in practice, the dream memories seem different from "normal" memories, but maybe it's the same in the dream state as well.

[Ilona]

the biggest part seem to exist outside of own experience.

define word exist. what in your own words it means, to exist.
and what is outside of experience? how do you even know that there is outside and inside? what informs you about the outside?

are people speaking to you outside the experience?
where does inside end and outside start? look at the sky, is it inside or outside?
look at a chest of drawers or cupboard, can you see inside when the drawers are closed? what about when drawer is open, is it inside or outside the view?

is distant sound heard inside or outside?
is so called individual entity inside experience or outside? is there a gap between you and the world?

look deeply at these questions and write when ready.

sending love.

[marcel2]

I guess I just made a distinction between being experienced by me and not being experienced by me, but still happening. like, that the world outside my room doesn't disappear when the door is closed... I guess I don't know what exists outside "my" experience, just that it feels more likely that it does, regardless of separation. like being a train cart, connected to the whole train, but not in contact with whole train...

no, they of course speak "in" experience.
the sky is "inside" awareness, but "outside" perceived agency. thoughts etc are perceived as part of agency, body, feelings etc too. maybe this is part of the mistake though it feels like, since thoughts as well only "appear" in a similar fashion to clouds appearing, other peoples voices appearing... and peoples voices and clouds are different of course, like thoughts and clouds are different, like thoughts and other peoples voices are different. but maybe a difference more in degree than in kind...

no, cannot see inside when the drawers are closed. the inside is inside view when the drawer is open.

the distant sound... is heard, it's assumed to be "inside" the head, going through the ears to the brain, that is inside the skull. but it's not really "inside" or "outside" in "experience", in "awareness". it doesn't seem to be a distinction, not one that is truly analogous to the open/closed drawer anyway... but maybe it's the same assumption, the "outside" is the "inside" of the closed drawer, since it's not experienced but still in the minds eye, in form of fantasy. thoughts predict content of drawer, opens it, and is often right, or feels to be right, in it's predictions; and "outside", that is happening apart from "inside" is assumed.

individual entity is that which is perceived to be "inside", since it doesn't seem to be fully "understood" by anyone but the "inside" (that is "me"). the gap is felt sometimes, sometimes no gap. it makes no sense that it could be a gap though. what would it even mean... ok, enough of ramblings for now :)