Hi Steve,
No problem my friend. Sleep is good...lol. I appreciate all of you're guidance!!!
I'm still working on you're other comparisons, but I pictured Spiderman in his red jump suit and then I tried to use the same technique to picture ME
There was nothing! There is no thought that can create a picture of ME. I'm gonna sit with this for a bit.
Thanks,
Ty
Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
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Seahawks5862
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Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Ty,
It might be helpful if you can answer questions that I ask - a short answer is fine, because it gives me a bit of raw material to work with.
Wherever you are when you read this, take a look at the present moment. Notice that the past and future only exist as thought content, which is not real. Look at what you can see, hear, and the other senses. Notice as you look around there's no "me": There are physical sensations in the body but otherwise it's just empty. Notice the sense of aliveness.
Now look at thoughts and feelings. If thoughts arise about how you're doing in this process, notice them. Maybe you're enjoying it, maybe there's some frustration, maybe both.
Notice that thoughts often claim to have reality to them, but they're actually just a "flat" stream of opinions about reality. The "three dinensional" look they have shows the amazing power of the pre-frontal cortex's "experience simulator", but this is all just an appearance only. Thoughts are just an incoming signal, like a TV station. If there's a TV on in the waiting room in the hospital, the last thing you would do is believe what it says.
Now ask yourself,
It might be helpful if you can answer questions that I ask - a short answer is fine, because it gives me a bit of raw material to work with.
Wherever you are when you read this, take a look at the present moment. Notice that the past and future only exist as thought content, which is not real. Look at what you can see, hear, and the other senses. Notice as you look around there's no "me": There are physical sensations in the body but otherwise it's just empty. Notice the sense of aliveness.
Now look at thoughts and feelings. If thoughts arise about how you're doing in this process, notice them. Maybe you're enjoying it, maybe there's some frustration, maybe both.
Notice that thoughts often claim to have reality to them, but they're actually just a "flat" stream of opinions about reality. The "three dinensional" look they have shows the amazing power of the pre-frontal cortex's "experience simulator", but this is all just an appearance only. Thoughts are just an incoming signal, like a TV station. If there's a TV on in the waiting room in the hospital, the last thing you would do is believe what it says.
Now ask yourself,
- Is there anything wrong with this moment, including the thoughts that are just as much a part of it as the sensations?
- Without believing what thought says, is there anything missing?
- How do you know there's anything you're not "getting"? Did a thought tell you that?
- What is there to get?
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Seahawks5862
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Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Steve,
That was a wonderful experience.
No...there is nothing wrong with this moment including all the thoughts.
Without believing any thoughts this moment is feels whole.
Yes...a thought will always say that there is more to do.
I guess nothing...lol
Ty
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That was a wonderful experience.
No...there is nothing wrong with this moment including all the thoughts.
Without believing any thoughts this moment is feels whole.
Yes...a thought will always say that there is more to do.
I guess nothing...lol
Ty
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Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Ty,
Have you seen viscerally that there is no self, or do you feel that it has not clicked yet? I'll be back in an hour and a half.
Steve
Have you seen viscerally that there is no self, or do you feel that it has not clicked yet? I'll be back in an hour and a half.
Steve
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Seahawks5862
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Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Steve,
To be honest it still feels like there's a ME that is making decisions and in control.
Ty
To be honest it still feels like there's a ME that is making decisions and in control.
Ty
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Seahawks5862
- Posts: 91
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Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Steve,
I did the poker chip exercise u suggested. There is no rhyme or reason why I would pick up up on chip over another. It just happened. I tried to really focus but that was a joke...lol. I used playing cards and there definitely seemed to be no reason why one card was chosen over another.
Tx
Ty
I did the poker chip exercise u suggested. There is no rhyme or reason why I would pick up up on chip over another. It just happened. I tried to really focus but that was a joke...lol. I used playing cards and there definitely seemed to be no reason why one card was chosen over another.
Tx
Ty
Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Ty,
You didn't get the same thing from the card/poker chip exercise that I did, but never mind. We'll look at other things...
So let's start from what's clearly real: There is an apparent body making decisions. (I say "apparent" because it's easier to prove that a body can be seen than that a body is there objectively.)
The question is, is there something involved in those decisions that you are? There are two kinds of decisions - ones that don't involve thought, and ones that do. There are two way to approach the problem - 1. look at the decisions and trace them back to a "you", or 2. look for a "you" and trace it forward to the decisions.
So let's start with decisions without thought, and trace them to the "you".
Earlier I gave you this exercise:
"Take two similar objects such as a salt and pepper shaker on a table in front of you. Reach for one. Look really closely for the decision point: The exact point in time when the decision was made of which of the two to grab."
You didn't say much about the outcome of it, so I want you to look at it again, but do it in a very specific way:
Choose objects that aren't breakable (just in case). I used glue sticks. Put them on a table. Then grab one so quickly that there's no time for thoughts to deliberate about which one to grab. When you start moving your hand, aim for the space in between the two objects. Repeat many times, and 1. look for the exact point where the decision was made, and 2. see if you can find any pattern in how how the decision is made.
When you find the point where the decision was made, then look for the involvement of an "I" in the decision.
Also do this throughout your day. Look at all decisions, but we're focusing more on decisions that don't involve thought here. Whenever you grab one of two jars off a shelf, see how and exactly when the decision was made. When you eat, have two drinks, and look at the decision of which drink to reach for. Look for that decision point and tell me how you were involved in the decision.
Steve
You didn't get the same thing from the card/poker chip exercise that I did, but never mind. We'll look at other things...
No worries. Remember that thoughts can be subtle, so you will have to look carefully to decide what's a thought about a "me" and what's a "me".To be honest it still feels like there's a ME that is making decisions and in control.
So let's start from what's clearly real: There is an apparent body making decisions. (I say "apparent" because it's easier to prove that a body can be seen than that a body is there objectively.)
The question is, is there something involved in those decisions that you are? There are two kinds of decisions - ones that don't involve thought, and ones that do. There are two way to approach the problem - 1. look at the decisions and trace them back to a "you", or 2. look for a "you" and trace it forward to the decisions.
So let's start with decisions without thought, and trace them to the "you".
Earlier I gave you this exercise:
"Take two similar objects such as a salt and pepper shaker on a table in front of you. Reach for one. Look really closely for the decision point: The exact point in time when the decision was made of which of the two to grab."
You didn't say much about the outcome of it, so I want you to look at it again, but do it in a very specific way:
Choose objects that aren't breakable (just in case). I used glue sticks. Put them on a table. Then grab one so quickly that there's no time for thoughts to deliberate about which one to grab. When you start moving your hand, aim for the space in between the two objects. Repeat many times, and 1. look for the exact point where the decision was made, and 2. see if you can find any pattern in how how the decision is made.
When you find the point where the decision was made, then look for the involvement of an "I" in the decision.
Also do this throughout your day. Look at all decisions, but we're focusing more on decisions that don't involve thought here. Whenever you grab one of two jars off a shelf, see how and exactly when the decision was made. When you eat, have two drinks, and look at the decision of which drink to reach for. Look for that decision point and tell me how you were involved in the decision.
Steve
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Seahawks5862
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Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Steve,
Maybe I didn't make myself to clear. When choosing the playing cards it felt like no one was choosing the cards. It seemed like the hand was just picking whatever card it wanted to.
I'm not sure if I'm on the right track but I chose two objects and reached for one of them as fast as I could. As soon as the hand would move I would try and aim the hand in between the objects. When the hand began to move I was unsuccessfull at making the hand change direction.
I'm not sure if this is the right direction but the thought of moving the hand in between the two objects had no power to change the action that was already in progress. It is clear that a thought really doesn't have any power in moving the body.
For instance to move the hand towards the object took effort but that effort has no name.
Ty
Maybe I didn't make myself to clear. When choosing the playing cards it felt like no one was choosing the cards. It seemed like the hand was just picking whatever card it wanted to.
I'm not sure if I'm on the right track but I chose two objects and reached for one of them as fast as I could. As soon as the hand would move I would try and aim the hand in between the objects. When the hand began to move I was unsuccessfull at making the hand change direction.
I'm not sure if this is the right direction but the thought of moving the hand in between the two objects had no power to change the action that was already in progress. It is clear that a thought really doesn't have any power in moving the body.
For instance to move the hand towards the object took effort but that effort has no name.
Ty
Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Ty,
For the "two objects" exercise, somehow one of the objects is chosen. The object of the exercise is to try to see the decision being made. Sounds like you have done pretty well. Can you find the decision point? What do you see at that point?
So you're saying that it feels like there's a ME making decisions and in control. Does a feeling of something indicate that this something is there? Do we automatically believe thought stories?
The sense of self is conditioned over many years, so it's not likely to disappear quickly. Find out whether there really is a self there, and if not, does it matter if that feeling is there? Maybe this is where the sticking point is. That's why I was talking about not believing thoughts. If you really don't believe any thoughts, then what they say matters a whole lot less. What do you think about this subject (whether thoughts should be believed)?
If you're not sure about whether there's a self deciding and controlling, we can continue breaking that down.
Steve
I'm with ya. Yes, that's more like what I got. I was able to get some insight into how (on what basis) the hand made the decisions by observing patterns in the decisions.Maybe I didn't make myself to clear. When choosing the playing cards it felt like no one was choosing the cards. It seemed like the hand was just picking whatever card it wanted to.
For the "two objects" exercise, somehow one of the objects is chosen. The object of the exercise is to try to see the decision being made. Sounds like you have done pretty well. Can you find the decision point? What do you see at that point?
So you're saying that it feels like there's a ME making decisions and in control. Does a feeling of something indicate that this something is there? Do we automatically believe thought stories?
The sense of self is conditioned over many years, so it's not likely to disappear quickly. Find out whether there really is a self there, and if not, does it matter if that feeling is there? Maybe this is where the sticking point is. That's why I was talking about not believing thoughts. If you really don't believe any thoughts, then what they say matters a whole lot less. What do you think about this subject (whether thoughts should be believed)?
If you're not sure about whether there's a self deciding and controlling, we can continue breaking that down.
Steve
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Seahawks5862
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Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Steve,
I think you're right on. There's a belief that EFFORT that is being used for any activity is a ME. However, it is just an assumption. I believe you're right that that is a sticking point.
As far as the excerise goes I would say there was no decision point. When the mind wanted to change directions of the hand nothing happened.
As ty
I think you're right on. There's a belief that EFFORT that is being used for any activity is a ME. However, it is just an assumption. I believe you're right that that is a sticking point.
As far as the excerise goes I would say there was no decision point. When the mind wanted to change directions of the hand nothing happened.
As ty
Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Ty,
Now I feel a lot less like I am doing bodily actions - though I still do a bit. And yet, they still happen just as before. The dropping of body identification is clearest with the sensation in the head that was "me". That sensation is just the same, but now it's just a sensation.
So what next?
Steve
The mind is making plenty of claims that you are doing it. But how can "you" be the cause of something invisible that works in a way that is not understood?As far as the excerise goes I would say there was no decision point. When the mind wanted to change directions of the hand nothing happened.
I found that very odd myself. Effort and the sensations of motion... It felt like I was doing it, but I reasoned that it doesn't mean that I am doing it. But it sure FELT like I was!I think you're right on. There's a belief that EFFORT that is being used for any activity is a ME. However, it is just an assumption. I believe you're right that that is a sticking point.
Now I feel a lot less like I am doing bodily actions - though I still do a bit. And yet, they still happen just as before. The dropping of body identification is clearest with the sensation in the head that was "me". That sensation is just the same, but now it's just a sensation.
So what next?
Steve
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Seahawks5862
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Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Steve,
It is true. There is no ME to be found anywhere just thoughts and feelings that have been misunderstood. The questions I'm left with are why does there need to be a belief in a familiar feeling and why should anything in the head be believed at all?
Ty
It is true. There is no ME to be found anywhere just thoughts and feelings that have been misunderstood. The questions I'm left with are why does there need to be a belief in a familiar feeling and why should anything in the head be believed at all?
Ty
Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Ty,
Often they're right enough to be useful, often their totally wrong, but what they say is always fiction. Thought content can look real but it never is real. Thoughts are not a problem - it's only the believing of them that is a problem. Thoughts are a wonderful part of life - definitely not an enemy. But somehow, probably largely influenced by our culture, we tend to raise them to an exalted status. And that seems to be the beginning of our problems.
Steve
Often they're right enough to be useful, often their totally wrong, but what they say is always fiction. Thought content can look real but it never is real. Thoughts are not a problem - it's only the believing of them that is a problem. Thoughts are a wonderful part of life - definitely not an enemy. But somehow, probably largely influenced by our culture, we tend to raise them to an exalted status. And that seems to be the beginning of our problems.
Steve
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Seahawks5862
- Posts: 91
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Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Steve,
I.see that. If planning needs to happen thoughts can help. I was looking at the idea that thoughts are real but their content is always fiction and a couple things hit me. Of course the content is always fiction because thoughts deal with only the past or future which isn't reality at all. The past is very rarely ever remembered correctly and the future even if planned never plays out the way the mind thinks it will. Then a thought came "where does a ME fit into that?" Logically if everything in thought is fiction of course a ME would be to. Then it hit me again. This voice that keeps talking only talks to itself. It is heard and even seen but I wondered why this so called ME can't talk back to it? I'm sorry I'm rambling!
When it appears to be asking a question or just talking it only answers itself. So I was wondering why? Maybe because there's no ME to answer it...lol. There's noticing of it which is a mystery but no one really here to have a conversation with it...crazy
It seems like the wheels are falling off of this ME. Thank u Steve.
Ty
I.see that. If planning needs to happen thoughts can help. I was looking at the idea that thoughts are real but their content is always fiction and a couple things hit me. Of course the content is always fiction because thoughts deal with only the past or future which isn't reality at all. The past is very rarely ever remembered correctly and the future even if planned never plays out the way the mind thinks it will. Then a thought came "where does a ME fit into that?" Logically if everything in thought is fiction of course a ME would be to. Then it hit me again. This voice that keeps talking only talks to itself. It is heard and even seen but I wondered why this so called ME can't talk back to it? I'm sorry I'm rambling!
When it appears to be asking a question or just talking it only answers itself. So I was wondering why? Maybe because there's no ME to answer it...lol. There's noticing of it which is a mystery but no one really here to have a conversation with it...crazy
It seems like the wheels are falling off of this ME. Thank u Steve.
Ty
Re: Can't tell if I've seen through the illusion
Ty,
Rambling is good! We'll call it "stream of consciousness therapy" and make it sound respectable.
I love the imagery of the wheels falling off. I'll leave you to enjoy the silence but just post if I can be of any assistance or you feel like freestyling some more. I'm right here for the next few hours.
Steve
Rambling is good! We'll call it "stream of consciousness therapy" and make it sound respectable.
I love the imagery of the wheels falling off. I'll leave you to enjoy the silence but just post if I can be of any assistance or you feel like freestyling some more. I'm right here for the next few hours.
Steve
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