a step into the unknown

[Trev]

Hi Fred

Thanks for the questions. I will have a go, keeping it clear and experience based.

How does it feel to have looked and not found a self? Has anything changed, loosened or relaxed, since the beginning of our dialogue?

During the process there were a few episodes of opening, it felt like a relaxation at the back of the head, accompanied by increased openness and receptivity to sense experience, and a sense that I was part of a 3D space, rather than holding a tense and narrow focus. I am conscious of easing of muscle tension, mainly at my neck and back, as well as around my eyes. This openness becoming more stable seemed connected to letting go of the ‘I’, there was a time when there was a lot of thought about how feelings and thoughts carried on ‘as if’ there was an ‘I’, once this relaxed, the openness was more relaxed and grounded, and now feels like quite a normal way to be.

In my solar plexus (I mentioned it a few times at the start), there was a cold space, which was difficult to be with at times, it seemed to be the centre for fear and insecurity. There is still some sensation there, but if feels much more relaxed and mobile. Not a problem. There are also some nervous thoughts around "Is this real?", "am I fooling myself?", but they are not taken seriously enough to disrupt the confidence that I can see that there is no self present in experience.

The sense of mind states, is that my attention sits more comfortably in the present. When life is busy and I am dealing with others, that is fine, attention is with that, although there is still a sense of being more grounded and present. When things are quiet again, attention starts to rest again, mostly with sense experience. There are times when there are frequent and loud thoughts, which can also be accompanied by strong physical sensations, strong emotions. In these states I find it useful to look at each thought, sensation, feeling and ask “Is there a self in that?” or a similar question, and this helps things to settle down.

There are also times when I feel and behave irritably. The feelings come up and they are expressed, not as a loss of temper, but showing irritation. This does not feel like a good thing to do, but it seems OK. It feels less personal, and it is easier to let it go or apologise if necessary.

How does the illusion of the separate self happen, if you look at it from direct experience?

I’m not sure if I can explain this clearly, but there are a few things that seem related. I notice when coming into a social interaction, there is some tendency to tense up, particularly in the head and around the eyes. There is some sense that this tense state is leading to a “me and them” view of the situation, a defensive view that feels like the situation is becoming some sort of challenge to be manipulated. These days the tendency will be spotted and the urge will relax again.

There are also patterns of thoughts that have an ‘I’ like quality. Simple things like getting a haircut. This morning the thought comes up – it would be good to get my hair cut today. It isn’t possible to do it right now, so there are other thoughts around “when should I do it”, “will there be time later”, “will there be a big queue”. Lots of thoughts related to the activity of going for a hair cut. I have shifted so that thoughts seem OK to come and go, without treating them as something ‘real’, but this kind of thinking can give the impression of a controller that is thinking through the options for the planned haircut. Exactly when and how the decision is made to get the haircut is not clear to me. Through the day thoughts of a haircut will pop up, and at some point, one will pop up and the time will be right for the haircut, and off I will go. A lot of the thoughts about the hair cut seem to push and pull for very little benefit, and it is a relief not to take them too seriously.

Do 'you' decide, choose, intend anything at all? Are 'you' responsible for anything? Is there free will? Can you give a couple of examples of apparent decision making events as they are seen in actual experience?

The haircut example was about the illusion of self, but it relates to choices too.

I have had thoughts about how this mind/body, makes decisions. There seems to be a knowing of what is appropriate in the moment. An automatic response appropriate to the situation. Perhaps not always the best response, but a sort of habitual one that has worked so far.

Also, there is the question of this kind of interaction (with you). I read your posts, reflect on them in the day, and respond to them. At some points in the day, the thought “what about fred’s question on choices, how am I making choices now?” will pop up. It seems there is some intention within this mind/body to engage with this process, and from time to time thoughts related to it will pop up, if the time is right there will be an action. E.g. I walk past the computer at a quiet time, and the thought of responding comes up, and I do it. The later it gets in the day, the more urgent and persistent that thought will be “Time is running out for a post.” And perhaps I will use a non-ideal time to make the post, because there is the thought “it has to be done”.

How did the idea or decision to engage with Liberation Unleashed first occur? A friend of mine mentioned it to me, and it popped up from time to time until the conditions seemed right to get on with it.

I will stop there. That is how it seems, and hopefully it is expressed clearly enough and from an experiential point of view. There is an urge to start speculating and theorising which is usually resisted. Do those answers ring true with your experience?

Thanks

Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev,

a sense that I was part of a 3D space, rather than holding a tense and narrow focus

Would you say that you could change the word 'sense' for the word 'thought', here? "A thought that I was part ..."? Would this ring true or truer?

I am conscious of easing of muscle tension, mainly at my neck and back, as well as around my eyes.

In direct experience, can this 'I' that is conscious of easing muscle tension be found? Can the owner of this neck and back and eyes be found?

I have had thoughts about how this mind/body, makes decisions.

DOES the mind/body actually make decisions? Or was that just another thought with no verifiable fact behind? What do you see?

Thank you!

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred,

Trev: a sense that I was part of a 3D space, rather than holding a tense and narrow focus

Fred: Would you say that you could change the word 'sense' for the word 'thought', here? "A thought that I was part ..."? Would this ring true or truer?

No, it’s not a thought, it’s a visual experience – perhaps not clearly expressed. The visual sense is experienced differently. It is as if the visual image is merged with my physical body, so I have no real sense of a face existing (when paying attention to visual input), just a visual space that contains the objects that are perceived. Also, rather than having a small focussed area, there is more a sense of a wider visual presence, a 180% arc of visual presence. Does that make it any clearer?

In direct experience, can this 'I' that is conscious of easing muscle tension be found? Can the owner of this neck and back and eyes be found?

Fred, how can you ask me that after all this time – of course it can’t. :-) - the I was just a figure of speech – there is no ‘I’ or owner in direct experience.

Trev: I have had thoughts about how this mind/body, makes decisions.

Fred:DOES the mind/body actually make decisions? Or was that just another thought with no verifiable fact behind? What do you see?

Observing the body’s actions, it looks like decisions are being made somewhere. The body makes a cup of tea, gets a haircut, has a conversation. Through the day there are many of these actions, and in some sense each one requires a decision – to do it or not do it. No location or agent making a decision can be detected in direct experience. The point about the mind/body was just indicating that the decision takes place somewhere outside of consciousness, and making the assumption that it was somewhere inside the unconscious mind or body. Not many other options that I can see. Do you see what I am getting at? Does it make sense? As you say, it does not seem to be verifiable by direct observation.

Thanks,

Trev

[Freddi]

Hi Trev,

It is as if the visual image is merged with my physical body, so I have no real sense of a face existing (when paying attention to visual input), just a visual space that contains the objects that are perceived. Also, rather than having a small focussed area, there is more a sense of a wider visual presence, a 180% arc of visual presence. Does that make it any clearer?

Yes, it is clearer, thank you. You mean that there is no experience of a 'watcher', just a space within which 'stuff' is perceived?

The point about the mind/body was just indicating that the decision takes place somewhere outside of consciousness, and making the assumption that it was somewhere inside the unconscious mind or body.

OK, as you say, that's just an assumption. How could you know if there anything outside of consciousness?

Thanks

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred,

You mean that there is no experience of a 'watcher', just a space within which 'stuff' is perceived?

Yes, that captures it.

Trev: The point about the mind/body was just indicating that the decision takes place somewhere outside of consciousness, and making the assumption that it was somewhere inside the unconscious mind or body.
Fred: OK, as you say, that's just an assumption. How could you know if there anything outside of consciousness?

I observe activity, of this body and other bodies and things. I can’t know from direct experience of anything that occurs outside of consciousness. I think you touched on this point before. What I observe is a flow of things happening, all around, all at the same time. In some way part of one whole moment. It is a strange mystery how this amazing web of the world unfolds – perhaps that is a good way to view it, be open to the wonder. This wonder is not always tangible, but it does support opening to the moment when it is there.

It seems that there are two levels of knowledge. There is direct knowledge – things that are observed/experienced – as mentioned above. There is also knowledge as in ideas captured in thoughts. Information, labels, etc. The sort of knowledge that exists in a car manual that allows a mechanic to fix a car.

Perhaps talk about that is not relevant here, it does not seem to help in seeing through the illusion of self, so I will leave it.

Bye for now,
Trev

[Freddi]

Thanks Trev,
Here's what you said in your first post:

I am hoping to see that there is a sense of self in my experience which is illusory. I am hoping that seeing that will enable me to let go a lot of striving and a need for control that uses up a lot of my time and energy. I am hoping to have more space for peace and feeling.

What comes up when you read this now? Has the striving been let go of? Is there more time and energy?
Would you say that this search is fulfilled?

Thanks!

Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred,

I have separated out the different points...

I am hoping to see that there is a sense of self in my experience which is illusory.

I have seen that there is no self in my experience – that self only exists in thoughts, it has no capacity to control or own experience.

I am hoping that seeing that will enable me to let go a lot of striving and a need for control that uses up a lot of my time and energy.

There has been a shift here. There is a change in the normal way of being, that expanded sense of perception, a more open sense of being in the moment. From time to time there is are moments of something more than that. Today something you wrote before came to my mind – how do you know what is happening in the thoughts of others (something like that) – it occurred to me that all these ‘people’ around me do not have controller selves either – they are all flowing with the conditions of the moment, just like ‘me’. There was a sense of wonder at the energy of life in the moment.

Anyway, to answer the question. There is a shift in the sense of striving. In terms of personal/spiritual development this feels different. There is a sense that development is not about learning something more, it is about relaxing and opening to the moment. There is a sense of having a connection to the moment and to a deeper experience of it, and also a sense that it is an evolving experience. That this mind/body is an evolving process and opening to the moment allows it to evolve. There is no urgency to this evolution, although there are still thoughts about being or doing something special or fears that something is not OK, but in time (sometime it takes a while) these are seen as just a thought with no real substance, part of the experience of being present. Being with how it is in the moment has a sense of realness to it and also a sense of OKness, no need to get anywhere else.

I am hoping to have more space for peace and feeling.

Space is not the first word that comes to mind, it seems more about immersion and flow. There is space around, but it feels quite a rich and full space. Perhaps before there was a sense of wanting to be left in peace, now there is more a sense that it is good to be immersed in the flow. It is not still, but it is peaceful in its way.

What comes up when you read this now? Has the striving been let go of? Is there more time and energy?

Actually the last few days I have been waking up early and feel quite tired, although this is fine, and it seems to be passing, but not much extra energy right now. Time does not seem so important, so there is less sense of needing to rush.

Would you say that this search is fulfilled?

I have a sense of a change. You could say that this search has been fulfilled, but it feels clear, as mentioned above, that there is no sense of having arrived somewhere, more a sense of entering a flow which will continue. There are many times when busy thoughts and a range of feelings are present, at times the sense of flow or openness is not experienced. But then it will pop back in, and sitting (or walking) quietly for a bit the thoughts will slow down and the sensory experience and a sense of flow and openness will become more vivid again.

Thanks Fred. It feels like an important shift has occurred that would not have happened without your help.

Trev

[Freddi]

Thanks Trev, for these lovely answers.
I am going to invite other guides to take a look at our conversation. They may or may not have further questions. I will come back to you as soon as I have some news.
Bye for now!
Fred

[Freddi]

Hi Trev
Four other guides have taken a look at our conversation and there are no further questions. I will send you a private message about what comes next.
Thank you for this opportunity to explore with you :-)
Bye for now
Fred

[Trev]

Hi Fred,

This has been an amazing journey, and I am very grateful for the time and care you have taken to respond to my posts.

I will check out the private message.

Trev.