Denis, please post here

[Chris]

Hi Denis,
From your answers, it seems you have a growing intellectual understanding of this.

No. I can understand 'me' is just a concept. Intellectually, it makes perfect sense. The concept is a construct of thoughts we've put together to create an image. Was there ever? Of course not or there still would be.

You understand this intellectually. What we are here to do is see this experientially.

2) The illusion of separate self is an image, an image quite different than others see.

I don’t understand what you are saying here, could you please explain?

It starts as soon as we cognize direct experiences and begin labeling them, then attaching thoughts and an ID to them, at a very young age. As you have said so appropriately, it is a construct of thoughts layered over direct experience.

Ok.

My guess is that the separate self ID has served as an evolutionary product for self preservation. Whoops, that's not a pun. It serves to keep us alive and perpetuate the species. I know it's highly speculative but it's my best guess.

This looks like a story to me. Have you observed this directly?

3) How does it feel to see this?

I think I have said this before but I may have lost that post. It feels like an acknowledgement rather than a revelation. It feels somewhat liberated knowing 'I' am not to blame and not in control of every experience that this mind/body has or anything other mind/bodies may have experienced.

Why is there no blame? Why is there no control?

I had one day during this 'looking' that I thought was an awakening. It came during an especially blissful meditation when I was interspersing 'looking for ID' with meditating. Of course I didn't find the ID but came out feeling like a new person. The whole day was especially blissful and the desert and everything I encountered seemed perfect. No 'I' and the concept of 'I' seemed ridiculous. Everything was in harmony. Much of that bliss and feeling of everything being perfect just the way it is disappeared the next day, although the acknowledgement of no 'self' remains. That was just one day; since then the acknowledgement has remained strong.

On that day you caught a glimpse of this. Why didn’t that feeling of bliss stay? Where did the harmony go?

There is a bit of disappointment that I still judge other persons' actions, perhaps even more now than before I began 'looking'. I ask myself: Is everyone delusional, distrusting, self-grasping, discourteous, rigid, opinionated or intolerant? This questioning makes me wonder if I am not still attached to a 'self' emotionally?

Who is judging others? Who is still emotionally attached to a self? Please point me to that I who is attached to a self.

4) How would I describe it to someone who has never heard of this illusion?

I have tried. The reply was, of course, "What do you mean there is no 'I?' I proceeded with:

The concept is imaginary. The only reality is the direct experience. The image we have of 'self' is a construct of the thoughts that follow the experience, labeling the experience and layering thoughts over other thoughts and believing that to be the 'self.'

Next, I would ask that the person look for the 'I' in direct experience. Put a hand on the table. What do you feel? Is that a direct experience? Can you find your 'self' in the same way?

I don't know that I am comfortable explaining why mind/body is not defined as a 'self.'

You don’t know how to explain why mind/body is not defined as self, but directly above you stated “look for the 'I' in direct experience. Put a hand on the table. What do you feel? Is that a direct experience? Can you find your 'self' in the same way?” Above you said "me" is just a concept. Do you define me and self differently? You can put a hand on a table. Can you put a hand on a body? Can you put a hand on a self?
You are getting closer, looking forward to your answers!

[Chris]

Hi Denis,

Hope all is well with you! I thought of soemthing else...I have asked you these questions several times and I don't remember you answering them:

Watch your thoughts. Where do they come from? Can you control them? Do you know what your next thought will be?

I think this exercise would be very helpful. It's what did it for me. Watch your thoughts, as each thought comes up, ask "Who thought that? If I don't exist, then where did that thought come from?". Keep at it and see what you are able to see with that line of enquiry.

Take care and please keep at this! :)

[Denis]

Hi Chris,

Good idea. I'll watch thoughts. I think I have been but I'll be more conscious of it: who's thought, where did it come from, can I control it, what's the next thought. I'll watch.

I'll stick with it. Sorry I didnt write yesterday; I wanted to digest it another day.

The "image that others see" is based on thinking. Each person constructs a different image. Shows me the image is not a direct experience or absolute.

Of course the evolution thing is a story. It's the only justification I can find for having a self image.

There is 'no blame' because events happen, uncontrolled. No me, no blame. However, "choices" are different. We do have some control over them.

The blissful day: I wish I knew why the feeling didn't stay. I awoke the next day questioning it. Then anxiety and disappointment set in. Now I would say it was a temporary state of happiness, a temporary state of accomplishment.
I have certainly searched for its return.

The "I that is judging others" is this changing mind/body form I call 'denis.' It is a long stream of thoughts integrated to form a set of socially acceptable behaviors. Of course it is not a direct experience and only a story.

Explaining this to others: I define 'me' as 'self'. I can feel a table and I can feel my body. The body exists just as the table does. The body is direct experience. I would call the mind/body experience 'self.' No?

thanks a ton for your patience,
dennis

[Chris]

Hi Dennis,

There is 'no blame' because events happen, uncontrolled. No me, no blame. However, "choices" are different. We do have some control over them.

Decisions are made. Action is taken. If there is no you, then who is making the decisions? Check it. We are saying there is no controller, none, zero. YOU DO NOT EXIST! How do you control the decision process if you do not exist?

The blissful day: I wish I knew why the feeling didn't stay. I awoke the next day questioning it. Then anxiety and disappointment set in. Now I would say it was a temporary state of happiness, a temporary state of accomplishment.
I have certainly searched for its return.

Blissful days happen, hellish days happen, content days happen, sad days happen, etc. Searching for a state causes a feeling of longing and dissatisfation because you are chasing something that is not part of current experience and current experience is all we ever experience. No state is permanent. Is it possible to reach a permanent state? Does life work like that?

The "I that is judging others" is this changing mind/body form I call 'denis.' It is a long stream of thoughts integrated to form a set of socially acceptable behaviors. Of course it is not a direct experience and only a story.

You are not judging others. You do not exist. Judging happens, it's just thoughts in a brain that come up due to beliefs and conditioning stored in that brain. Look for that I that is doing the judging, can you find it?

I define 'me' as 'self'. I can feel a table and I can feel my body. The body exists just as the table does. The body is direct experience. I would call the mind/body experience 'self.' No?

Body exists, table exists, they are there whether you think about them or not. Self/me is a concept. Self can't be touched, self can't be seen. If you don't think about it, is it still there in direct experience?

[Denis]

Hi Chris,

your comments make sense. Based on your suggestion from the day before, I have been watching where thoughts are coming from more often and closely. I hadn't been very vigilant about that until you mentioned it. I think it is working. At least I have a healthier outlook. I have had two days of seeing they just arise. Sensations stir memories and a thought manifests. Cool! Not that I hadn't recognized that before but I have been neglecting to watch. Had been thinking too much and looking too little. Your advice is a helpful reminder.

I'll keep watching.

Thanks, denis

[Chris]

Thinking too much and looking too little will get you an intellectual understanding at best.

The comment about a healthier outlook, if you can, please stop focusing on what you think this is doing for you or will do for you if you see it and focus on looking. You'll see what this does once you actually see there is no self. Anticipating some change or looking for one during the process is distracting you from the process. It will really help you to stop doing that.

Watching thoughts is extremely useful for seeing no self. A helpful thing to do is to ask "If there is no me, then where did that thought come from?" after you notice a thought. Observe what comes up next after you ask that question. Observe how the brain responds to that question. Let me know what you observe.

Looking forward to your next post!

[Denis]

I agree.

I'll ask " if there is no me, where did that thought come from?" Then observe what comes up next. How the brain responds. Got it.

thanks, dennis

[Chris]

Hi Denis,

Hope all is well with you. Please do continue with LOOKING, it's the only thing that will get you through the gate.

Take Care!

[Denis]

Hi Chris,

Have been looking quite often in the last 24 hours. What I see is that thoughts come from nowhere out of nothing, although they are triggered by sensations and interpreted from memories. Scientifically, I understand the bio-chemical connection but based on direct experience the bottom line is thoughts arise from nothing.

When I observe what comes up next is an observer. A third person that observes what is happening, observes there is an observation, then an observation of an observation. Of course I don't see an observer but I do see the observation. I keep observing observations so that thoughts are observations.

It is clear that thoughts are a nearly continuous stream, one based on the previous and a sensation.

Will continue with this unless I hear from you otherwise.

thanks, dennis

[Chris]

There is no you observing observations. What comes up for you when you read this statement?

[Denis]

That there is observing an observation, then another observing of that observation. I now am observing an observation of observing.

[Chris]

Do you exist? Is there a you thinking thoughts, observing and making decisions?

[Denis]

Hi Chris,

Sorry I missed the 'you' in your 'no you observing the observer' comment this morning.

No 'me,' just observations occurring. I did notice today that thoughts originate as a singularity from nothing. The singularity expands rapidly, but not instantly, into awareness...then there is an observation of the awareness.

Not sure I have more than and intellectual understanding of no 'me,' just as I only have an intellectual understanding that thoughts are bio-chemical changes. I'll keep watching for how thoughts arise and the mind's reaction to that.

thanks for your patience, dennis

[Chris]

I only have an intellectual understanding that thoughts are bio-chemical changes.

How do you know that thoughts are bio-chemical changes? Do you know that from direct experience? Can you make a true statement based solely on direct experience?

[Denis]

No, was trying to say I don't know of the bio-chemical changes via direct experience. It's only intellectual based on lots of evidence.

Based on direct experience, there is no 'me' but I am still attached to the mind/body especially when feeling down. Perhaps it's just conditioning and habit and will gradually subside.

I am looking for a 'me' and it always goes back to the mind/body experience. I am watching for how thoughts manifest and I see they just arise from nothing, fast but not instantly. There is a nearly steady stream of thought. When I watch, another thought arises, "I am watching." Then the thought: "Do I exist?" Then the thought: "No, mind/body are many events and experiences occurring constantly. The 'I' is only an image of 'dennis' (i.e., santa claus)."