Request to be guided

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

a short note in case you haven't got the email.

There are major technical works happening on the weekend. It can be that the forum will not be accessible for 48 hrs. from Friday morning on.

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

There is ambivalence. It is alright. It is just a feeling. You can just let it be there. No need to identify with either side.

How do you feel? Do you want to go on, fully committed to seeing or stop?

The ambivalence remains; in fact, the sadness associated with moving forward is very apparent whereas a couple days ago it wasn't. Writing to you last night, stories came up, along with identification with the stories. I acknowledge and honor the stories and the sadness. I choose to go on. I am as committed as I can be. Thank you for talking me though the various features of the ambivalence. It is helpful to be reminded that separation is part of the illusion.

[Ghata] You barely noticed when you were seeing the truth and forgot about it quickly. Here:

[Terry, 18 days ago]There is no me at all. I was not correct to say that "there is a sense that the voice in the head is me".

- Whenever the sense of "I" arises, I can look at it and immediately see that it is thought + sensation.

- I no longer feel like I am ever doing anything. I no longer feel like I am the author of my actions.

- I no longer feel like I am the author of my thoughts, even thoughts that seem kind of original. It's clear that even original thoughts just appear.

- It is a little easier to let emotions pass through me without identification.

All of this is still true, and I am grateful for this shift every day. Lacking is the knowledge that I am done.

Here is my current experience. There is not an ongoing sense that the voice in the head is me. However, often, when an "I" thought arises, it arises with a sense of "I-ness", of self, of agency. This sense disappears immediately upon examination, but it does seem to take a fraction of a second for that examination to occur.

I just ready your note saying that the forum may be off line for up to 48 hours. See you on the other side!

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

All of this is still true, and I am grateful for this shift every day. Lacking is the knowledge that I am done.

I am happy to hear that you realised a shift had happened indeed.

When would you know that you are done?

There is not an ongoing sense that the voice in the head is me. However, often, when an "I" thought arises, it arises with a sense of "I-ness", of self, of agency. This sense disappears immediately upon examination, but it does seem to take a fraction of a second for that examination to occur.

This is normal after the shift. Thinking patterns that were there for decades won't disappear all of a sudden. With each new recognition that there is indeed no self, the pattern is weakened. It is also normal to identify with the self for some time until the recognition is remembered again.

It's like seeing a good movie. You will still laugh and cry, forget that you are watching pixels on a screen - and then remember again that you are just watching a movie.

The Gate is the beginning of a new path.

Are you a 100 % certain that the 'I', the self doesn't exist? That there is no self controlling anything or attending to a self image? If not, where are unclarities or doubts?

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Dear Ghata,

I am happy to hear that you realised a shift had happened indeed.

Yes, I see more clearly than I did before you guided me, and it is fun and freeing. But it seems like a deepening of understanding, not a quantum leap. Before working with you, I was already seeing my emotions as biological phenomena, arising and passing of their own accord. I was already seeing repetitive thoughts as phenomena not of my making, with content of dubious validity. You helped me see that all thoughts arise of their own accord, that decisions are not made by "me", and that the moving of my body is not controlled by me, at least not in the way that I had thought.

When would you know that you are done?

There are certain things I've seen reported on the forum and in GG that, if I experienced them, I'd have more certainty I was done. (1) An a-ha moment, possibly followed by giddiness or feeling silly for not having seen something so simple before. (2) A sense that others are "me" to the same extent that Terry is me. (3) 100% certainty that the self doesn't exist (see below). (4) Seeing my thoughts and actions from a completely disembedded perspective, as though I am watching a movie on a screen.

Are you a 100 % certain that the 'I', the self doesn't exist? That there is no self controlling anything or attending to a self image?

If 100% is my certainty that there is no Santa Claus, then, no I am not 100% certain that the "I" doesn't exist.

If not, where are unclarities or doubts?

Indeed, I have not been able to observe an "I" directly. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. An analogy: I am sitting in my backyard and clouds of mist keep appearing from behind the shrubs, then dissipating. I cannot see a cloud-generating machine. Can I be certain that none exists, determining the shape and size of the clouds? No. In fact, one might very well exist. If I am disabled and immobile, it may be impossible for me to go behind the bush and look, so I can never observe it directly.

Santa Claus is different. I can see all the workings that create the illusion of Santa Claus. Absolutely everything about it is understood; nothing is unexplained. Regarding Terry's thoughts and actions, plenty is unexplained. What caused my gaze just now to shift to the left? I don't know.

But perhaps all this intellectual argument is simply a reflection of the fact that, when I am not mindful, I am still somewhat identified with my experience. I do not see my thoughts and actions as though they are on a movie screen, for the most part. I usually have to make a continuous effort to maintain the view that there is no "I". When I don't make that effort, it kind of feels like there is an "I", and life feels a lot like it did before I worked with you.

But this is all consistent with what you wrote:

This is normal after the shift. Thinking patterns that were there for decades won't disappear all of a sudden. With each new recognition that there is indeed no self, the pattern is weakened. It is also normal to identify with the self for some time until the recognition is remembered again.

I feel like I want to give a more concise and clear answer, but this is the best I can do for now.


Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

the forum is back and running and I hope, you can log in already. :-)

If 100% is my certainty that there is no Santa Claus, then, no I am not 100% certain that the "I" doesn't exist.

That is a clear statement that you are unclear.

Let's look at what is unclear.

There are certain things I've seen reported on the forum and in GG that, if I experienced them, I'd have more certainty I was done. (1) An a-ha moment, possibly followed by giddiness or feeling silly for not having seen something so simple before. (2) A sense that others are "me" to the same extent that Terry is me. (3) 100% certainty that the self doesn't exist (see below). (4) Seeing my thoughts and actions from a completely disembedded perspective, as though I am watching a movie on a screen.

The shift is different for each single person, as you have already found out by reading other threads, and it is perfect for every person.

Re 1. You had an aha-Moment. Maybe it wasn't as strong as you expected, though you called it a shift? Is it because of your expectations to experience it like others do, that you dismiss what you saw?

Re 2. This will most likely not happen. With the experience deepening later, it might be seen. The gate is just the first step.

Re 3. That should indeed happen. You should be 100% certain that the I doesn't exist.

Re 4. That will definitely not happen. It would mean, a new identification with the observer is there. In fact, it is the opposite. With the conceptual overlay dissolving, experience of thoughts and emotions will be close and deep, fully embedded.

But perhaps all this intellectual argument is simply a reflection of the fact that, when I am not mindful, I am still somewhat identified with my experience.

You are not identified with experience. You are identified with the conceptual overlay of experience, thoughts.

You don't find the I anywhere - that is experience.
You still think it is there - that is identification with thoughts.

Indeed, I have not been able to observe an "I" directly. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Terry, this statement is the same as if I would say, there is a unicorn in your room. You won't be able to observe it directly. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist and that it isn't in your room.

These are THOUGHTS.

How real is the content of thoughts?

Exercise:
Close your eyes. Imagine a big green watermelon in front of you. Pick it up. Feel the weight. Knock on it, does it sound ripe? Take a knife and cut it. Feel the sticky Juice on your fingers. Have a bite. Is it sweet?

Now open your eyes.

Where is the watermelon gone?

Share what you find,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Hello, Ghata,

You asked me earlier today what it was like to spend a day savoring life. You asked, how does life taste? I have been vaguely anxious about how to answer that. Early in the morning while I was still in bed I remembered my assignment: "Touching your partners, really feel it." Touching my partners can be frought with anxiety for me and it seemed that the instruction to savor it triggered anxiety. I tried to let go of the anxiety, knowing that it arises from thoughts, and eventually I was able to and I did enjoy snuggling with E.

Later in the day, from time to time I remembered the assignment, and I then put my attention on the sights, sounds, smells, and touch of nature. Each time there was enjoyment. Usually, soon after that, thoughts would occupy my attention, even when I kept in mind the intention to savor sensory experience. Thinking was often quite persistent.

In the evening I thought the piano concert would be a great opportunity to savor sensory experience. But it was not a type of music that appeals to me, and I was not engaged with it. I was sleepy and body aches were prominent in my attention.

Even right now, when I put on sensory experience, there is pleasure: the beautiful lamp shade, the breath entering the lungs, the pulsing of blood. Looking at the moon is especially pleasurable.

Often a beautiful sight will spark immediate joy, but in less than a second an overlay of thought mutes the joy. The thought is wordless; I can't say for sure that it is thought but it feels like thought.

All of the above is typical for me since before LU, except perhaps there is a bit more pleasure and joy now. Not sure.

-----

You gave me the watermelon exercise before. I will do it again now ... Yes, as before, this exercise demonstrates clearly that something can be very vivid and convincing in the mind, yet have no relationship to what is happening in the material world.

You had an aha-Moment.

Well, I had several moments when I observed things more clearly than before, or even observed things I hadn't observed before. Such as sensations co-arising with the "I" thought.

I wrote that I would be more certain I was done if I were seeing my thoughts and actions from a completely disembedded perspective, as though I am watching a movie on a screen. You wrote:

That will definitely not happen. It would mean, a new identification with the observer is there. In fact, it is the opposite. With the conceptual overlay dissolving, experience of thoughts and emotions will be close and deep, fully embedded.

OK, interesting. Not sure what to do with that information, but at least a misconception is cleared.

So I've observed that the self consists of thought + sensation, yet you say that I am dismissing what I've seen. Hmmm, yes, I guess there is a waiting for something else to happen. I don't know what to do at this point except to ponder that. I'm going to bed now, will ponder your words as I fall asleep.

Thank you for guiding me, Ghata.

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

thank you for your beautiful description of how life tastes. Anger, tiredness, aches are also the taste of life! Everything is included.

Often a beautiful sight will spark immediate joy, but in less than a second an overlay of thought mutes the joy.

Yes. Thoughts mute the experience, the conceptual overlay makes it pale compared to directly experiencing it. That would happen when you watch everything from the position of an observer. The observer is a conceptual overlay as well. There is no observer. There is just experiencing.

You asked, how does life taste? I have been vaguely anxious about how to answer that.

Yes, there is anxiety about experiencing life fully.

The answer to the question: "Is it true that there is no 'I'" will not be found in thoughts but in experiencing it. Only when experiencing the truth you will know for sure.

You are not sure about the answer (and you are right about not being sure) because you mostly turn to thoughts for an answer.

Experiencing life fully means feeling everything. The joyful, blissful, boring, annoying, humiliating, fearful moments, everything. As long as there is fear to feel everything, there is the need to hide from experiencing life fully. Turning to thoughts, muting experience is the way to go.

The gate will lead you to life itself. There is no danger in experiencing everything to the fullest. It might not be always comfortable. We humans so much want to have pleasant experiences only. That's why we hide from truth.


Today, when an unpleasant sensation comes up, stay with it. Feel the sensations. First there is a name. Go deeper, right to the sensations and fully experience them. Do not watch them. Really experience what it is to be anxious, angry...

Experiecing the sensations themselves, what do they feel like, where are they?
Are they pleasant? Unpleasant? Neutral?


Warm regards,
Ghata

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

thank you for your beautiful description of how life tastes. Anger, tiredness, aches are also the taste of life! Everything is included.

Often a beautiful sight will spark immediate joy, but in less than a second an overlay of thought mutes the joy.

Yes. Thoughts mute the experience, the conceptual overlay makes it pale compared to directly experiencing it. That would happen when you watch everything from the position of an observer. The observer is a conceptual overlay as well. There is no observer. There is just experiencing.

You asked, how does life taste? I have been vaguely anxious about how to answer that.

Yes, there is anxiety about experiencing life fully.

The answer to the question: "Is it true that there is no 'I'" will not be found in thoughts but in experiencing it. Only when experiencing the truth you will know for sure.

You are not sure about the answer (and you are right about not being sure) because you mostly turn to thoughts for an answer.

Experiencing life fully means feeling everything. The joyful, blissful, boring, annoying, humiliating, fearful moments, everything. As long as there is fear to feel everything, there is the need to hide from experiencing life fully. Turning to thoughts, muting experience is the way to go.

The gate will lead you to life itself. There is no danger in experiencing everything to the fullest. It might not be always comfortable. We humans so much want to have pleasant experiences only. That's why we hide from truth.


Today, when an unpleasant sensation comes up, stay with it. Feel the sensations. First there is a name. Go deeper, right to the sensations and fully experience them. Do not watch them. Really experience what it is to be anxious, angry...

Experiencing the sensations themselves, what do they feel like, where are they?
Are they pleasant? Unpleasant? Neutral?
Is there an experiencer and the experienced? Or just experiencing?

Share what you find.


Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Today, when an unpleasant sensation comes up, stay with it. Feel the sensations. First there is a name. Go deeper, right to the sensations and fully experience them. Do not watch them. Really experience what it is to be anxious, angry...

Experiencing the sensations themselves, what do they feel like, where are they?
Are they pleasant? Unpleasant? Neutral?

I thought I was extremely experienced at staying with unpleasant sensations. But, after reading your post, it seems that I have perhaps been creating an observer and watching the sensations, in some sense, from afar.

I do not have to wait for an unpleasant sensation. Such sensations are almost always there. Closing my eyes now, there is a vaguely unpleasant pulsing and constriction, along with slight nausea.

Instead of naming the sensations, as I have done during many hundreds of hours of noting practice, I am just feeling them.

Although I am not naming the sensations, it still seems like there is an "I" present. When I try to fully experience the sensations, it seems that all I am doing is moving the "I" into the physical location of the sensations. But that is not what we're after, right?

Well, since that is what is available to me at the moment, I will allow that to happen and report.

Hmmm! It does seem that "fully experiencing" may be happening. It almost feels like not experiencing at all -- as though the experience is passing by so quickly that I don't really "have" the experience -- and the tone is neutral.

Still, unpleasantness is still sometimes there. I wonder if there is a rapid alternating of "selfing" and fully experiencing -- and that the unpleasantness arises during the selfing. I wonder if there is discomfort with experience flying by, so self arises briefly to try to hold on.

Now, after 10-15 minutes, the character of the sensations remains the same as when I began.

OK, trying to dive deeper ... thinking that "try" is not supposed to be part of this process ... still trying ... eventually the experience has a continuously neutral tone. I would say that the sensations are the same, yet they are experienced differently ... neutrally ... and flying by. The nausea I would no longer call nausea, just pulsing.

It takes a lot of effort to keep doing this. There is a lot of resistance, and the resistance is unpleasant, even though the original sensations are neutral. The resistance is a craving for stimulation, or maybe for self.

Trying to fully experience the resistance / craving.

OK, now, again, shifting back and forth between unpleasant and neutral ... every few seconds ...

Is there an experiencer and the experienced? Or just experiencing?

The impression is sometimes of an experiencer, sometimes of just experiencing.

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

I thought I was extremely experienced at staying with unpleasant sensations. But, after reading your post, it seems that I have perhaps been creating an observer and watching the sensations, in some sense, from afar.

Yes, very well seen. Naming sensations can also be used to not feel them, to create a distance to sensations.

To me it seems that this is one of the crucial points that keeps you from looking directly: The fear of experiencing unpleasant sensations.

eventually the experience has a continuously neutral tone. I would say that the sensations are the same, yet they are experienced differently ... neutrally ... and flying by. The nausea I would no longer call nausea, just pulsing.

Well done, Terry. I realise that this is difficult. When feelings are experienced on the level of the pure sensations being present, they are neither pleasant nor unpleasant and don't have a name any longer. It really is the name that makes them unpleasant, not the sensation itself.

Experiencing the pure sensations, there is just experiencing. With the self comes the suffering.

Today, do this exercise twice. Once with a pleasant feeling and once with an unpleasant feeling. These feelings can also be triggered by just thinking of a situation when you felt them.


Share your experiences.

Warm regards - Ghata

[tfarrah]

To generate a pleasant experience, I did a moment of anapanasati meditation, which creates pleasant feelings throughout the body.

When I first tried fully experiencing these sensations, I found anxiety that the sensations might fade away. I also noticed that the sensations had an unpleasant edge that was more prominent than the pleasantness.

Trying again ...

Again, the unpleasantness is prominent. And some anger arises. There is not an experience of sensation flying by, as I reported last night. Also, there is an irritation in my right eye that keeps drawing my attention. Let me try adjusting my contact lens ... and perhaps choose a different pleasant sensation. The softness of the velvety couch against my right foot. No - the pleasantness that arises in the body at the sight of branches softly swaying in the breeze.

Aaack, the contact lens is still bothering me ... and the sounds from the kitchen are irritating.

Let's go to the unpleasant ... the unpleasantness of the irritation in the eye. The sensation is only there when the eyeball moves. With attention, the sensation becomes interesting and even somewhat pleasant.

Now, feeling the irritation in the eye, pleasantness arises all over the body, the same pleasantness that arose with the anapanasati meditation 15 minutes ago. I now try to fully experience that.

The unpleasant edge arises again. I tell myself to fully experience that, and the experience becomes neutral.

Like last night, there are periods of 1-2 seconds where experience seems to fly by, where it is not mine, where it barely even seems like experience ... a kind of nothingness ... alternating with periods of 3-5 seconds where experience seems more solid and can be either pleasant or unpleasant. More often unpleasant, even though I began by choosing a sensation that was pleasant.

What shall I do the rest of today, Ghata? The past few days I have not been searching for Terry as though I am searching for my keys. I also have not been asking, "No I -- is it true?"

I have been trying to notice sensory experience, especially when outdoors walking. Especially noticing the movement all around me.

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

well done! I will answer more fully later.

For the rest of the day notice the reality that is perceived through the five senses.

In this reality of seeing hearing, tasting....can an I be found?


Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

In this reality of seeing hearing, tasting....can an I be found?

Throughout the day I asked about the reality that can be perceived through the five senses, "can an I be found?" Almost always, the answer was, "No, no I can be found. Just experience." However, once I was looking across the street at a building and the thought arose, "The sight of that building is completely about me. I experience it completely in relationship to me."

When I got on the bus to go home I continued noticing the reality that is perceived through the five senses. Whereas this was easy to do while I was walking about outdoors and in the office, on the bus it became extremely unpleasant as I experienced repetitive noises and the repetitive motions of the bus as it jerked forward and backward. This unpleasantness was so extreme that I chose not to continue to notice this reality. I got out my phone and looked at Facebook.

Later I went to my sitting group. I spent the sitting noticing the reality that is perceived through the five senses, primarily bodily sensations. Again, no I was found. After the sitting we talked with each other. I felt very vulnerable and aversion arose in response to the things people were saying. Whereas I'm usually quite conversant, this evening I didn't want to say anything. I wanted to hide myself. Thoughts were prominent and I was no longer noticing the reality perceived through the five senses.

Right now, when I look up from my keyboard and notice the hum of the dishwasher, the sights in the kitchen -- again, there is no I to be found.

Terry

[Ghata]

Dear Terry,

very good looking on both, the pleasant and unpleasant sensations and looking for the I in experiencing the 5 senses.

Now, feeling the irritation in the eye, pleasantness arises all over the body, the same pleasantness that arose with the anapanasati meditation 15 minutes ago. I now try to fully experience that.

The unpleasant edge arises again. I tell myself to fully experience that, and the experience becomes neutral.

It's quite amazing what we find if we don't take feelings at face value! At the level of pure sensations, there are no such things as pleasant or unpleasant feelings.

Did "YOU" actually tell yourself to fully experience that or did a thought with that content come up?

This unpleasantness was so extreme that I chose not to continue to notice this reality. I got out my phone and looked at Facebook.

You did very well in seeing that there is no I to be found in the reality of the 5 senses. There is no other reality available.

When things get unpleasant, we can take refuge in thoughtworld or distractions to escape from it and that is happening as well. This is why the idea of I is there in the first place. To give hope that if there is a YOU that tries hard enough, suffering will end.

Was there an expectation, that seeing through the illusion of self would eliminate unpleasant experiences once and for all?
This will not happen. An event or a thought and the following sensations is the molecule of experience. There will always be sensations, pleasant and unpleasant ones. And the unpleasant ones get more unpleasant if they are fought.


You said "you chose not to continue..."

Today investigate this choosing. Find the exact "choice point". Can you find the specific point in time when a choice is made?

Warm regards,
Ghata

[tfarrah]

Today investigate this choosing. Find the exact "choice point". Can you find the specific point in time when a choice is made?

I am sitting at my desk. The thought arises, "I will take a sip of my beverage." When will I actually do so?

My hands move away from the keyboard and sit in my lap. When will I take a sip?

The pulsing in my body becomes stronger, and there is constriction in the right throat. Occasionally, attention goes to the arms and a slight tingling arises in the forearms, as though they are preparing for action.

There is a feeling of pulsing and pressure in the skull, and a sense of confusion. Thoughts are not clear; the sense of self is muddled. Breathing becomes shallow.

The thought arises, "I don't want to take a sip, because then this exercise will be over, and I will have lost something."

Thought: "What would it mean to know that a choice had been made? What is a choice? Once sipping happens, I can know that it has happened, but not before. Sometimes the thought arises, 'I will sip', but that thought has already arisen several times and still sipping has not yet occurred. There is no choosing -- only thoughts and actions."

The arm slowly begins to lift. A deep breath. The hand slowly grasps the cup. Sipping happens. The arm places the cup back on the desk.

Thought: "What did I think I would lose?"

Terry