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Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:24 am
by yuvi
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?

Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?
Any confusion at all or anything that needs to be addressed?

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:05 pm
by jonathon
Has it been clearly seen that there has never been an ‘I’ that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there an 'I' of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Do others have responsibilities?
Not sure. I think it will take some time to sink in.

No.

No.

No.
Is there a 'you' that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a 'you' doing anything?
Any confusion at all or anything that needs to be addressed?
No.

No.

Not that I'm aware of.

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:26 am
by yuvi
Not sure. I think it will take some time to sink in
Seeing the self illusion is a moment, but not something that sustains forever. But once it is seen, there is no confusion on what this illusion is, or how it plays out in everyday life. To explain this with analogy:

"Everyone has had the experience of looking through a window and suddenly catching sight of his own reflection staring back at him from the glass. At that point, he can use the glass as a window, to see the world outside, or as a mirror, but he can’t do both at the same time. Sometimes your reflection in the glass is pretty subtle, and you could easily stand there for ten minutes, looking outside while staring right through the image of your own face without seeing it."

Seeing 'self' illusion is to catch the sight of 'own reflection' in the glass. This is an excerpt from the conversation available in this link - https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/taming-the-mind

The inquiry is the same. LOOK for that which 'sees', LOOK for that which 'hears', LOOK for that which 'thinks' and LOOK for that which 'controls'.

LOOK deep and write to me what this doubt is.

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:10 am
by jonathon
Not sure. I think it will take some time to sink in
Seeing the self illusion is a moment, but not something that sustains forever. But once it is seen, there is no confusion on what this illusion is, or how it plays out in everyday life. To explain this with analogy:

"Everyone has had the experience of looking through a window and suddenly catching sight of his own reflection staring back at him from the glass. At that point, he can use the glass as a window, to see the world outside, or as a mirror, but he can’t do both at the same time. Sometimes your reflection in the glass is pretty subtle, and you could easily stand there for ten minutes, looking outside while staring right through the image of your own face without seeing it."

Seeing 'self' illusion is to catch the sight of 'own reflection' in the glass. This is an excerpt from the conversation available in this link - https://www.samharris.org/blog/item/taming-the-mind

The inquiry is the same. LOOK for that which 'sees', LOOK for that which 'hears', LOOK for that which 'thinks' and LOOK for that which 'controls'.

LOOK deep and write to me what this doubt is.
I don't think I'm getting this whole thing. Intellectually I understand it, but I don't think I'm actually seeing anything. I answer your questions with what seems right, but it's like the answers are empty - they're right, but they don't have any sort of weight to them.

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 1:38 am
by yuvi
I don't think I'm getting this whole thing. Intellectually I understand it, but I don't think I'm actually seeing anything.
This is just an expectation (thought and mental images arising now). Here are the facts: there wont be any fireworks, or end of thoughts or suffering when the illusion is seen. It may sound contrary to what is being sold in the name of enlightenment or self transcendence. And there was, is and never a self in direct experience. So nothing changes. Earlier there was a thought that 'thinks' another thought. When examined, it is realized that the 'thinker' is also a 'thought'. The experience examines itself (self aware experience with no center. No freewill. No thinker. No controller).

When there is honest inquiry, is there an "i"?

When done with sufficient rigor, you can only glimpse the experience 'before thought' to know there is no center of any experience. Thoughts immediately label the experience as "I" did "blah blah."

Any expectation is a thought arising in the present moment. We have covered it. We can examine again. What is the expectation? What wants to change?

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2015 7:29 am
by jonathon
No ,there's no I.

I've just got a whole bunch of thoughts that I haven't seen thru yet that's all I think.

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 10:31 am
by jonathon
Thanks for your help yuvi

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 4:11 pm
by yuvi
You are always welcome :)

Seeing the illusion of self isn't the end, Jonathon. Post this conversation, we will add you in FB groups where further discussions and examination continues (completely voluntary).

Before we proceed to that, i have final questions for you to answer. These answers will help the other guides to ascertain if there are any sticky points to address. I would like you to be completely honest about what is experienced and there is no rush.

Are you ready for final questions?

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Sun Feb 15, 2015 9:33 pm
by jonathon
Ready

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:56 am
by yuvi
Here are the questions. Please answer as clearly as possible and with as much detail as needed. Don’t forget to add everyday examples from your experience for question 5

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:56 am
by jonathon
Here are the questions. Please answer as clearly as possible and with as much detail as needed. Don’t forget to add everyday examples from your experience for question 5

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, it's just a thought. Never.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It starts when one is young and possibly just appears or comes from one's parents and what not giving one the thoughts about it(but where it first came from I don't know). The illusion of separate self is a collection of thoughts that back up each other but ultimately don't point to anything in reality. What the thoughts state is that there is an entity, a thing, that is a separate experiencer of reality. This thing is supposed to exist outside of thoughts, it's supposed to have an independent, objective existence.
It works like old habits. It appears in the mind, other thoughts spin off from it, others again from those. Unless one is looking at reality one get's lost in these thoughts just go on and on.
E.g. One may habitually, without examining it, believe oneself to be the thinker of thoughts. But if one patiently and with much perseverance looks again and again, slowing things down, making distinctions, one can eventually see that thoughts occur first then another thought comes up saying I thought that thought.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Feelings are a part of the self-construct. E.g. "I" feel "good" that "I" have "achieved" something "worthwhile". I've been working thru feelings of guilt about past screw-ups.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
None, not really. It was a slow building up. Many hours of sitting, lying, walking and looking.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
Decision/Choice: Things are decided I don't know when, I don't know what by. Thoughts come up about how I was thinking about the decision and making it. E.g. Today it was decided that I would stick to my intermittent-fasting diet instead of buying McDonalds. I had thoughts that I was the one thinking about the decision, weighing the costs and the benefits then deciding.
Intention: Just a thought that one is in control of one's actions, has goals and desires. I have thoughts that I'm going to clean my floor tomorrow as it's getting buffered by some pro-fresh-ional cleaners. This is a goal because I want to avoid any negative outcomes of not doing it.
Free will: Doesn't exist, as there's no I.
Control/Responsibility: One isn't responsible, one has no control. I never decided to go for a walk today, it just happened.
Things just happen, it's like a computer program just running. Maybe it was all programmed into the universe from the beginning big bang or something.
6) Anything to add?
No.

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:42 am
by yuvi
thank you, Jonathon. I will post your replies to other guides and they may come with questions, if any.
there are many experienced and insightful guides than me who can offer important inputs or ask further questions. This will take sometime..

Once i get any question, i will write to you.

I'd suggest to work through the conditioned mental habits and patterns as and when it appears. There is no thinker, so suffering that comes from thoughts is just an experience with "Jonathon" as an "illusion of experiencer." When thoughts are just seen as thoughts w/o getting lost thinking, there is no suffering.

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Mon Feb 16, 2015 9:12 am
by jonathon
Okay
Thank you.

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:11 am
by yuvi
Hi Jonathon.. The guides have responded and we are done here. I will send you PM on adding you to LU FB groups for aftercare.

Thanks for your patience. See you in FB :)

Re: Requesting guidance

Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 5:33 am
by jonathon
Okay, thanks again yuvi.