Thread for Elmas

[Dava]

In addition to the above (it makes sense to answer them all together I think)

There is still a belief and an habitual assumption that there is an "I" that does all those things but when questioned and when I look in Direct Experience

What has this belief and assumption that there is an 'I'?

What 'I' has looked into 'Direct Experience'?

I felt just like I hadn't gone through this DP process at all

Was there an 'I' that went through a process?

[Elmas]

What has this belief and assumption that there is an 'I'?

Hello Dava,

Just to acknowledge that I've read your PM and your last 2 posts and am pressed for time right now to respond to them. I'll respond to everything on Sunday evening or in the very, very early hours of Monday morning.

But just for now can you clarify the second word in the question above?

Have a lovely Saturday evening

Elmas

[Dava]

No problem Elmas, in your own time.

It is a possessive 'has', as in "what is it that has this belief?"

[Elmas]

"No, seeing through a fixed and separate self can only happen now, right now. Mindfulness is always present moment based. Seeing through 'a centre' an "I"; can only happen right here, right now in Direct Experience."


So when you're looking now, in the present moment, no separate self can be found.
What about when you're not looking?
Is there a self when you're not looking?
Is there a you when you're not looking?

Direct Experience is the basis for this enquiry, which means looking with present moment awareness, seeing through a separate self can only be done right here, right now. To answer those 3 question there needs to be a shift to non-Direct Experience. The questions can not be answered on their own terms. We need to move into logic to answer them. When I am looking at a tree can I see it? Yes. If I turn my back on the tree I can not see it with my eyes, does the tree exist? It's a similar kind of question. Logically speaking whether "I" or anyone else sees or does not see that a separate self does not exist makes no difference to the fact that separation does not exist. But it makes all the difference in world when it comes to alleviating suffering, loving & compassionate actions.

[Elmas]

"There is still a belief and an habitual assumption that there is an "I" that does all those things but when questioned and when I look in Direct Experience"


What has this belief and assumption that there is an 'I'?

Two/three things: the weight, the pull of 'old', 'deep' habits and tendencies and volitions, especially the tendencies to push away unpleasant sensations and the tendency to crave and be attached to pleasant ones and the habit of not being open to what is and the habit of wrongly imagining an "I" exists.

What 'I' has looked into 'Direct Experience'?

It's not like that. It's life becoming aware of itself; awareness knowing itself. It's a sensitive knowing.



"I felt just like I hadn't gone through this DP process at all"


Was there an 'I' that went through a process?

That's impossible! But for anyone who has read many of my posts this whole DP process has been a very emotional experience, anger has been experienced, irritation has been experienced, fear, quite a lot of fear actually, lots and lots of wonder, fascination, frustration, tenderness, lots of laughter, lots of tears, regular experiences of gratitude, sometimes very deeply felt, especially to you for always being there asking all these 'funny' questions helping me to take the next step into a new life and gratitude also for Elena and Illona for starting this website, this movement in the first place..."I" was so stirred up by this process that until recently, just a week or so ago, my sleep had been disturbed and broken almost every night for weeks on end. So, no a separate "I" or "self" never went through any process because there is no separation. Life is an indivisible whole. It's like "I've" come full circle, only this time the knowing is clearer and stronger.

[Dava]

When I am looking at a tree can I see it? Yes. If I turn my back on the tree I can not see it with my eyes, does the tree exist? It's a similar kind of question. Logically speaking whether "I" or anyone else sees or does not see that a separate self does not exist makes no difference to the fact that separation does not exist.

So what you're saying here is that whether you're looking or not, there's no separate self.
Talk more about it, explain it to me using clear, simple terms.
Try explaining it, as if you were teaching it to me.
Why is there no me? Why is there no separate self?

[Elmas]

Hello again Dava,

You have asked many difficult questions but this is one of the most difficult questions you've asked. (I've taken it to mean how have reached those conclusions, if that is not what you mean, do correct me.)

I'm not making any promises when I'll send off the responses but at some stage I'll respond.

Kind wishes

Elmas

[Dava]

You have asked many difficult questions but this is one of the most difficult questions you've asked. (I've taken it to mean how have reached those conclusions

That should do it.

[Elmas]

"When I am looking at a tree can I see it? Yes. If I turn my back on the tree I can not see it with my eyes, does the tree exist? It's a similar kind of question. Logically speaking whether "I" or anyone else sees or does not see that a separate self does not exist makes no difference to the fact that separation does not exist."

So what you're saying here is that whether you're looking or not, there's no separate self.
Talk more about it, explain it to me using clear, simple terms.
Try explaining it, as if you were teaching it to me.
Why is there no me? Why is there no separate self?

Why? Generally I don't like "why" questions. Let's have a go though, in clear, simple terms hopefully. When we enter or look into experience all that can be found are pleasant, unpleasant and neautral sensations, energy and what we can call emotions. When we look (carefully), all these sensations etc. are seen to be just a flow of experiences, in other words, any psycho-physical organism is just a flux of changing experiences. If this is true, which it is, it is not possible to say a 'me' or a 'you' exists, certainly not in any fixed way. Except to say "I" am change itself, or "you" are change itself. This means that when we ignore this truth, imagine or hope we can manipulate 'the world' to meet our desires, that frequently this hopeless endeavour will result in pain and dissatisfaction, even if for a while, to a limited extent, it seems like we can 'successfully' manipulate 'the world.' This is why a 'me' does not exist.

But this enquiry is into seeing through the illusion of a separate self. Why is there no separate self? If we look into Direct Experience, into the experience of tasting, the experience of hearing, the experience of touching, the experience of smelling and the experience of thinking we enter into a beautiful, or fascinating mystery. We become open directly to life itself right here, right now and move beyond theories and thoughts about life. This is so simple I'm almost embarrassed to write this! If we cast aside 'thought coverings' we are left as it were face to face with life, life is just life. Life manifests in billions of different ways but to say "I" or "you" is just a conventional linguistic habit, is is not how things actually are. Life is not divisible. This seeing gives rise to an enhanced softening of the heart and an enhanced feeling of reverence for life, at least this is 'my' experience.

One important source of painful feedback to support the truth of these insights is that when this non separation is being seen and felt and harmful, unskilful actions emerge (in speech for example), the dissonance, the pain and regret is sharper than before this DP process started (generally speaking.) In other words, when I go against life it's (extra) painful. Conversely when non separation is in view, living in harmony with life is much easier even if uncomfortable sensations are temporarily present; kindness, love and thoughtfulness arises and are expressed more easily and naturally.