Third time is the charm!

[Xain]

Seeing is just an experience, but the eyes dictate what is visually seen.

In the experience of 'seeing', can you identify exactly which part of the eye is doing the seeing?
Maybe the centre of the eyes? Or the back of the eyes?

I do know that the experience of WHAT IS SEEN changes with the eyes.

So the eyes are operating independantly of 'you'?
Are the eyes 'you' or 'not you'?

Are you seeing, or are the eyes seeing? Or both?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,

In the experience of 'seeing', can you identify exactly which part of the eye is doing the seeing?

No

Maybe the centre of the eyes? Or the back of the eyes?

Cannot identify which part of the eye.

So the eyes are operating independantly of 'you'?

apparently so

Are the eyes 'you' or 'not you'?

The same as the brain/ears/nose or any other part of the body - awareness (or "you"/"I") seems to just take everything in as at is which includes sense stimuli like vision. So the eyes don't seem to be part of "me"
Thanks,
John

[Xain]

In the experience of 'seeing', can you identify exactly which part of the eye is doing the seeing?
No

Ok, so is it the entire eye then? Not a specific part of it?
Examine the experience of 'seeing' and tell me what part of the eye (or indeed the whole eye) is doing it.

So the eyes don't seem to be part of "me"

Ok, so in the experience of 'seeing', 'you' witness a pair of eyes (which are not you) doing it - Yes?

So the eyes are operating independantly of 'you'?
Apparently so

Ok, so what is doing the hearing?
Are the ears doing the hearing? Can you locate what is doing the hearing?

Also, what about smell?
Is the nose doing the smelling? Can you located what is doing the smelling?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,

Ok, so is it the entire eye then? Not a specific part of it?

Examine the experience of 'seeing' and tell me what part of the eye (or indeed the whole eye) is doing it.

Maybe I wasn't really clear earlier... The eye doesn't seem to do the actual seeing, but alters what is seen. I do not know which part actually alters what is seen, but the entire eye must process visual data somehow.

k, so in the experience of 'seeing', 'you' witness a pair of eyes (which are not you) doing it - Yes?

Maybe... "I" am aware of visual stimulation which seems to come through the eyes. But in the experience, "I" can't even seem to find the eyes, just vision.

Ok, so what is doing the hearing?
Are the ears doing the hearing? Can you locate what is doing the hearing? Also, what about smell?
Is the nose doing the smelling? Can you located what is doing the smelling?

Same type experience - can't even find the ears/nose but just hearing/smelling.
Maybe I'm overthinking or assuming or something. In the senses, whatever body part is associated with the specific sense affects the experience.
Thanks,
John

[Xain]

Hi John

Just have another look.
In 'hearing' you sense only hearing - That's fine.
We sometimes say 'Listen with your ears' but it's only a common expression.

In 'smelling' you sense only smelling - That's fine.
Again, we sometimes say 'Smell with your nose' but it's only a common expression.

Now in 'seeing' is this different.
In the 'seeing' a pair eyes are clearly witnessed doing the seeing?

but the entire eye must process visual data somehow.

Sure - We rely on many thoughts and ideas about what is going on. The medical profession relies on this stuff.
But what is being asked here is different. I am not asking for an IDEA or what is doing it, I am asking what can be FOUND doing it.

Put it another way - Can the eyes 'see' without something there 'to be seen'?
Can eyes see all on their own?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Will get back later thanks
John

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Sorry for lack of reply. Will post in detail asap. Probably not til Friday.
Thanks,
John

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
travelling all week, finally back.

Now in 'seeing' is this different.
In the 'seeing' a pair eyes are clearly witnessed doing the seeing?

It is just like smell and hearing.
I am having difficulty with labelling the eyes/ears/nose as "ideas". Maybe it is just semantics.

I am not asking for an IDEA or what is doing it, I am asking what can be FOUND doing it.

Put it another way - Can the eyes 'see' without something there 'to be seen'?
Can eyes see all on their own?

I do get this - no the eyes/ears/nose can't see/hear/smell without something there to stimulate.
But are those physical attributes (eyes/ears/nose) ideas? that is where my confusion is. They seem very real and obvious - so its difficult to label them as ideas.
Thanks,
John

[Xain]

I do get this - no the eyes/ears/nose can't see/hear/smell without something there to stimulate.
But are those physical attributes (eyes/ears/nose) ideas? that is where my confusion is. They seem very real and obvious - so its difficult to label them as ideas.

It's fair question - But beyond the scope of what you look for here.

Where do all these answers come from?
Conventionally, you have been taught names of things and what they do.
What if that had never happened?
What would you know?
What could you say?

But I need to head back to the original reason for this guiding.
That is the realisation that 'I' is just a thought - An idea - That's all it has ever been - That's all it will ever be.
Has this been realised?

Is there an 'I' that is doing 'seeing'?
Is 'I see' anything other than just an idea?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,

Where do all these answers come from?

I do not know.

Conventionally, you have been taught names of things and what they do.
What if that had never happened?
What would you know?
What could you say?

If that had never happened, and nothing labeled/remembered there would be no answers. All experience would be fresh and not "colored". I wouldn't really know anything. Expectations would be quashed, nor could anything be said.

That is the realisation that 'I' is just a thought - An idea - That's all it has ever been - That's all it will ever be.
Has this been realised?

Yes, "I" do not exist. Just an accumulation of experiences tied together by memory or mind or whatever records the experiences.

Is there an 'I' that is doing 'seeing'?
Is 'I see' anything other than just an idea?

there is not an "I" doing anything. "I see" is just an idea or conventional terminology for seeing or vision. Nothing that can be identified really sees.
I think my confusion stemmed from seeing/sight as discussed in an earlier post.
Thanks,
John

[Xain]

Would you like to have another go at the last questions again?
Or are there any other areas that aren't clear?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,
Lets give it a go and see if anything pops up that i need to address.
Thanks,
John

[Xain]

Lets give it a go and see if anything pops up that i need to address.

Sounds good to me.

Here are the first three of the six questions - Have a go at answering them when you have a moment.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

Xain ♥

[matumba]

Hi Xain,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days.

Nothing different over the past few days. I think the realization that occurred about two months ago was when a difference was apparent. Since that time the honeymoon has faded a bit, but the actual realization that "I" have no control has not faded.

Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something I mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

Being able to get some alone time in nature was pretty critical. I think the crux was when I went on the backpack trip. I still think the Neuroscience and Free Will video on youtube helped me a lot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 6S9OidmNZM
Thanks,
John

[Xain]

Cool - And again, here are the last three of the six questions.

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. (Feel free to use conventional language here)

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Xain ♥