The Gate

for example you asked "No separate thing can be found right?"....so to verify this I start looking in unfocused way and thought will jump in ya ya no separate thing exist...while a doubt would be there see I am still seeing many things (separated)..

Any suggestion/pointer would help.

Thanks
Jitendra

What is a memory? Is it:
A) an accurate reflection of real events that have taken place
Or
B) A thought that is happening now that says it is a reflection of a past?

A memory(remembrance) is a thought that is happening now that says it is a reflection of the past.

But there is no counterargument to it..there is a trueness to it..accompanied by images and another subtle conclusion yes this did happen. rather there is an indirect validation of past by acceptance of it.

Thanks
Jitendra

Can you also please give some guidance about how to get into looking at direct experience. I think most of the practice and answering requires me to get into direct experience looking mode.

ideally after reading question I should go into looking (D.E) mode and then I should observe and conclude/verify/notice from there....but thought quickly jumps in and starts answering the questions.

Thanks
Jiten

Hi jiten, yes just keep looking. Thoughts can reflect DE, or they can 'assume' stuff (which is what they mostly seem to do). Watch what thoughts say, check it off against experience.

As we continue to clear up all the assumptions and beliefs, things will get clearer.

A memory(remembrance) is a thought that is happening now that says it is a reflection of the past.

But there is no counterargument to it..there is a trueness to it..accompanied by images and another subtle conclusion yes this did happen. rather there is an indirect validation of past by acceptance of it.

Well spotted. So an aspect of thought is the conviction that it is true / an automatic acceptance that it is true.

So then, is there a real past? Or is 'past' just a thought story that somehow appears to be reality?

Will address the first part tomorrow

Tao

sometime when "lost in thoughts" happen, it is noticed only afterwards not when it happens.

Is this actually so? Is there an afterwards, or is there just this?

Perhaps thoughts say, 'I was just lost in thought and this is what I was thinking'?

Have a look.

nothing is separate from experience but

1) difference in experiences is noticed and
2) a preference is seen towards certain experience and.
3) tendency to avoid certain experience is also seen.....I think this is where experiencer "me" is felt more strongly.

So thoughts labelling experience? Thoughts implying again that there was a past that was different?

Is there an actual 'me' that is avoiding situations? Or is the me simply known as sensations and thought labels?

Tao

Thoughts can reflect DE, or they can 'assume' stuff (which is what they mostly seem to do).

Thank you for this. this has been very very useful. exactly what i needed.

Watch what thoughts say, check it off against experience.

Practicing this whenever possible. today is Saturday..no office..so could practice formally. I found so much resistance...most of the time i just wanted to get busy into something or else like watching TV or browsing net.

Thanks
Jiten

Well spotted. So an aspect of thought is the conviction that it is true / an automatic acceptance that it is true.

So then, is there a real past? Or is 'past' just a thought story that somehow appears to be reality?

This needs more clear seeing i guess or may be i am understanding incorrectly..

is there a real past?

....does it imply nothing happened.."there is just this" - what does this mean...does it mean that even the thought which appeared and gone..did not happen...its just thought saying now that..

so nothing is actually remembered (because there is no past)..its just appearance of thoughts/images now which says this happened in past.....

which of following two is true?

1) Nothing happened at all including thoughts? because sometime thoughts says this is what i was thinking???

2) events do happen (which means past did exist...not now)..But there is no way of knowing that it did happen except thoughts happening now (ha ha..i am contradicting my statement)...

(does mind or awareness has a choice to see every thought/images/sensations as happening/appearance now....rather than believing thoughts)

if i look at my marriage photograph of past...without the support of thought it does not prove automatically that marriage did happen..even the logic that photograph is a proof of marriage in the past comes as a thought now...

if there is just this....and in direct experience thoughts are just appearance now...so every thought which is not about direct experience (hearing, seeing, touch, taste,smell) is not true....it is not true because it implies past or future which does not exist.....

can you please help where i am stuck? "Not believing thoughts which imply past"....this is where i still have resistance i guess....

Thanks
Jiten

Hi Jiten

This needs more clear seeing i guess or may be i am understanding incorrectly..

can you please help where i am stuck? "Not believing thoughts which imply past"....this is where i still have resistance i guess.

So when you look from direct experience, you look at reality as it actually is.
You 'remember' that you are the knowing/being of yourself.
You SEE thoughts as they are occurring.
You 'wake up' out of 'being lost in thinking'

Agree?

Based on this, what can you most trust to be real?
Direct experience? (This as it actually is)
Or what thought says?

Thought says you are a limited, separate entity with a past.
What does direct experience reveal?

does it imply nothing happened.."there is just this" - what does this mean...does it mean that even the thought which appeared and gone..did not happen...its just thought saying now that..

Can you find a previous thought?
Or just this thought?

So nothing is actually remembered (because there is no past)..its just appearance of thoughts/images now which says this happened in past.....

which of following two is true?

1) Nothing happened at all including thoughts? because sometime thoughts says this is what i was thinking???

2) events do happen (which means past did exist...not now)..But there is no way of knowing that it did happen except thoughts happening now (ha ha..i am contradicting my statement)...

You've pretty much answered your own question :D

What is it that says 'events do happen'?

(does mind or awareness has a choice to see every thought/images/sensations as happening/appearance now....rather than believing thoughts)

If there is a choice, what is it that is choosing?

i look at my marriage photograph of past...without the support of thought it does not prove automatically that marriage did happen..even the logic that photograph is a proof of marriage in the past comes as a thought now...

if there is just this....and in direct experience thoughts are just appearance now...so every thought which is not about direct experience (hearing, seeing, touch, taste,smell) is not true....it is not true because it implies past or future which does not exist.....

It is true only in the sense that it is just a story appearing now. Look at your wedding photo again. What happens? Thought creates a whole story in a flash, right?
What is that story about?

Tao

Hi Tao,

I got busy today. i will work on this and reply tomorrow.

Thanks
Jiten

Hi Jiten,

No probs.

Tao

So when you look from direct experience, you look at reality as it actually is.
You 'remember' that you are the knowing/being of yourself.
You SEE thoughts as they are occurring.
You 'wake up' out of 'being lost in thinking'

Agree?

Yes. I agree.

Based on this, what can you most trust to be real?
Direct experience? (This as it actually is)
Or what thought says?

When there is no emotion/feeling and no other concern then Direct experience is clearly seen as real and to be trusted.

But when I am in my triggered state - then attention is not free it seems -- then even the understanding that in DE there is no me...is not liberating...concern continues..seeing does not happen easily...

Mostly when I am triggered that time either

1) there is a reactive response - thoughts/conversations/replies in mind keep flying around...
or
2) there is a shrinking-tightness and attention is locked in some unseen/buried concern.

There is continuous sense that I need to be free from something...I am not able to relax or calm down...its like I am avoiding something and want to be free from it without looking at it.....

this is when direct experience is difficult...not seen...not freeing..no aha moment.

Thought says you are a limited, separate entity with a past.
What does direct experience reveal?

still practicing this. will get back.

Can you find a previous thought?
Or just this thought?

I cant find previous thought..even looking feels silly...but then also there is a sense which is probably same as belief that event happened...previous thought happened...whole life happened...

If there is a choice, what is it that is choosing?

no one seems to be choosing...its happening (not seen very clearly yet but have developed a sense to notice whenever it gets noticed)

Thanks
Jiten

Hi jiten.

when I am triggered that time either

1) there is a reactive response - thoughts/conversations/replies in mind keep flying around...
or
2) there is a shrinking-tightness and attention is locked in some unseen/buried concern.

So that which seems to keep you from a clear seeing is thoughts and sensations. Is there anything else in the way or just these two things?

] is continuous sense that I need to be free from something...I am not able to relax or calm down...its like I am avoiding something and want to be free from it without looking at it.....

So let's look at this in more depth. Wait for an opportunity to notice the 'triggered' state.
I want you to find two things:
What is it you want to be free from?
What exactly is it that wants to be free?

Also, what would freedom be like?

I cant find previous thought..even looking feels silly...but then also there is a sense which is probably same as belief that event happened...previous thought happened...whole life happened...

If there is a choice, what is it that is choosing?

no one seems to be choosing...its happening (not seen very clearly yet but have developed a sense to notice whenever it gets noticed)

Good stuff. Keep noticing. Here is an exercise you might like to try in your own time.

Lift either your right hand or your left hand, or both, or neither.
What made that decision?
Repeat as necessary.

Tao

Hi Tao,

So that which seems to keep you from a clear seeing is thoughts and sensations. Is there anything else in the way or just these two things?

Yes...It is very difficult to hold attention to be able to see it in DE. the effect(not experience) is of almost like sleepy or drunk person would have..

So let's look at this in more depth. Wait for an opportunity to notice the 'triggered' state.

I would look-out for this and report back.

But in general, i get triggered when

a) i feel i want to express my unwillingness to do something and i am not able to because of authority figure or fear of retaliation..

b) When i feel i have made some mistake and now people will question me.

What is it you want to be free from?

I want to be free from the experience of fear or helplessness or the reactive feelings I experience....there is a strong resistance to be in that state..

What exactly is it that wants to be free?

don't have an answer for this as of now. But I get identified with resistance at that time. Its me who is resisting which wants to be free.

Also, what would freedom be like?

Freedom would be simply be able to choose and just go through what gets decided without resistance...instead of disowning of situation..its would be consciously owning, choosing and not experiencing this resistance.

Lift either your right hand or your left hand, or both, or neither.
What made that decision?
Repeat as necessary.

I did that and had a funny experience. moved my hand 3-4 times in the first go itself without a corresponding thought to move it multiple times.

Thanks
Jiten

Hi jiten, apologies for the wait

So let's look at this in more depth. Wait for an opportunity to notice the 'triggered' state.

I would look-out for this and report back.

But in general, i get triggered when

a) i feel i want to express my unwillingness to do something and i am not able to because of authority figure or fear of retaliation..

b) When i feel i have made some mistake and now people will question me.

So thought says there is a 'you' that has made a wrong decision.
Have you ever made a decision, let alone a wrong one?

Continue with the exercises and tell me if:

You are the chooser of ANY body movement
You are the chooser of ANY thought,
You could have acted different in ANY past scenario.

I want to be free from the experience of fear or helplessness or the reactive feelings I experience....there is a strong resistance to be in that state..

Is there resistance to a state, or is 'resistance' the state itself (a label for the state)
In other words, is there anything actually resisting the state, or is the state an appearance of resistance?

don't have an answer for this as of now. But I get identified with resistance at that time. Its me who is resisting which wants to be free

So can you find that which becomes identified? Or is it only ever a thought that says there is something being consumed by thought?

Freedom would be simply be able to choose and just go through what gets decided without resistance...instead of disowning of situation..its would be consciously owning, choosing and not experiencing this resistance.

Lift either your right hand or your left hand, or both, or neither.
What made that decision?
Repeat as necessary.

I did that and had a funny experience. moved my hand 3-4 times in the first go itself without a corresponding thought to move it multiple times.

So did you find the driving force or 'decider'? Is there one?

The following is a word about expectations, and what awakening may mean

The Santa analogy:
"
'seeing through' Santa, i.e. knowing for sure that there is no Santa, doesn't mean that little kids then spend the rest of their lives constantly thinking, 'there's no Santa'! Nor does it mean that Santa isn't apparently spotted in shopping malls in December. It's just that the story has been seen through. The direct knowing of no-self may be recollected at any time, but states still continue to come and go - pleasant, unpleasant, 'positive', 'negative'."

That said, is anything actually suffering these states?

Can anything come to any harm?
If so what is it that can come to any harm?

Tao