Help me please . . .

[Sparsh]

Does labeling ever not happen automatically - on its own? Is there anything that DOES labeling?

I think the labelling always happens automatically. Children, when they experience something for the first time, don't label the sounds, sight, smell etc. But when they experience the same thing for the second time, they too start to label the experiences. So, I think, its the memory of expriences that does the labelling.

Yes, we could call this conditioning. However, was there anything doing this conditioning? Is conditioning done by something/someone or it just happens?

Conditioning isn't done by someone/something. Conditioning happens on its own corresponding to the experiences. Though I tend to think that the human brain might be responsible for it.

How did this expectation of some kind of nasty behavior come to be? Did you “decide” to expect this or did this expectation simply arise due to certain conditions – automatically on its own? Do you expect, or is there simply an expectation?

The expectation happens on its own, because of past conditioning. I don't decide to expect. If I can decide what to expect, I would always expect good things. But the expectations happen on its own, out of my control. Again, I don't refute the possibility of brain having to do with conditioning, causing expectations.

What is expectation anyway?

Expectation is the anticipation of something to happen, whether they are good, bad or neutral.

So imagination was based on some memory? Does that make any difference? Is imagined image which is based on “memory” in any way different than completely fictional image? How is it different?

Yes, the imagination was based on memory. I tend to disagree that there is something like fictional image. I don't think we can imagine something we have never seen (in real or in TV/books/magazines etc). Whatever I imagine is entirely what I have seen in past, or the distorted image of that.

Where does imagination or thoughts or any other kind of experience come from and where does it go to?

I think the source of imagination or thoughts of any kind is the collection of past experiences. I don't know where they go.

What do you mean exactly by “I’m unable to experience anything without labels coming into play”?

Take any fruit and taste it. Do you need labels for this? Do you need to label, “it is sweet, it melts in my mouth, it’s slightly cold, it has a nice texture to it, etc…”?

I think classifying the taste of fruit as 'sweet', its temperature as 'cold', its texture as 'nice' are instances of labelling.

Try the same fruit with and without labels. Is there a difference? What exactly is different?

I took an apple from fridge. First thing I noticed was it was 'cold'. Then I started eating it. I noticed it was sweet and tasted 'good'. I was unable to eat the apple without labelling.

Sensing is experience.
Labeling is experience.
Thinking is experience.
Imagining is experience.
... is experience.
We could say that anything is experience and that there are many flavors of experience.

The main question is: “Is there an experiencer?”

Where does experience end and “you” begin? Is there such a border or line where experience ends and experiencer begins?

I think I'm the sum total of my body and my experiences.

[Sparsh]

For “future” please post what you did so I can see what exactly did you do and how as that will help me to ask more appropriate questions. In short it will ease the process for both of us.

First I described what I was experiencing at that moment using 'I' and 'me', like 'I'm writing, I'm feeling feeling the touch of my pen on the paper I'm writing' etc., for 10 minutes. For next 10 minutes, I described what I was experiencing at that moment without using 'I' and 'me', like 'Feeling the pen on my hand, feeling the air of fan on my ear' etc. I was feeling kind of light while describing the experiences without using "I' and 'me'.

[smi]

Hi Sparsh,

I’m noticing that majority of your responses begin with “I think”. Most statements beginning with “I think” carry a seed of uncertainty, of doubt, of not really knowing. What we need is really being certain. What we need is really seeing what is going on.

For example if I didn’t know if I had keys in my pocket and somebody asked me if I had keys in my pocket, I could respond: “I think I do” or “I think I don’t” or “I don’t know”. However first 2 are a result of thinking, of trying to remember something, or trying to deduct, or trying to reach a conclusion about something, or trying to figure it out. The only honest and true answer in this case would be “I don’t know”. There is a much easier way to get the right answer though. I could simply look into my pocket and answer: “Yes, I do have keys in my pocket” or “No, I don’t have keys in my pocket”. No thinking required at all. Really child-like simple.

What is expectation anyway?

Expectation is the anticipation of something to happen, whether they are good, bad or neutral.

Sorry, I should’ve been more specific with this question. I didn’t mean definition of expectation but what it is made of.
For example there might be a certain images or thoughts along with certain sensations and we call it expectation or anticipation. So, expectation is just a word or a label for that bundle of images/thoughts/sensations.

The main question is: “Is there an experiencer?”
Where does experience end and “you” begin? Is there such a border or line where experience ends and experiencer begins?

I think I'm the sum total of my body and my experiences.

Here you stated a belief instead of answering my questions. There is nothing wrong with that, but please try to answer every single question exactly as that will ease the process for both of us.

For next 10 minutes, I described what I was experiencing at that moment without using 'I' and 'me', like 'Feeling the pen on my hand, feeling the air of fan on my ear' etc.

For example you didn't do Ilona’s exercise correctly. You only shifted “me” to certain body parts so you just made the subject more subtle. So, please, please, please, answer every single question and do it from looking, from direct experience and report back exactly what you did.

We’ll return to labels and experiences shorty. It would be best to focus now on thoughts and thinking as that seems to be your dominant way of experiencing. By thoughts here, I mean literally the "inner dialog" and also "images". However if it makes it easier, first just focus on "inner dialog" with these questions and please really look. Watch for thought to appear and just look. And as always, please answer from direct experience rather than thinking.

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?

Kind regards
Milan

[Sparsh]

I'll post soon. I'll take my time on this one.

[Sparsh]

Reading a lot of spirituality articles since past few years seems to be causing some problems for me in experiencing directly. But I'll try.

[smi]

Hi Sparsh,

Sure, no problem take as long as you need. And also I would like to say that you are doing really great and you can't do anything wrong. So, with questions about thinking simply look at thoughts. Let it be as simple as it is and write down as you see it.

Kind regards
Milan

[Sparsh]

Where do thoughts come from?

I have no idea where thoughts come from. I just lie down and decide to think, all kinds of thoughts from past emerge. Then I decide to do something and get up, and thoughts are gone.
Thoughts can come from external factors too. I hear my mom speaking outside, and an image of my mom comes.

Are you in control of them?

There's a series of associations in thoughts. I think one thought, then another associated thought comes, then another, and so on.
I'm not sure whether I can choose what thought to think, or not. Either thought comes on its own, or I decide to think something. But I'm not sure what I choose to think is in my control. I choose to think of America. But why did I think of America, and not France ? Whether my choice of thought is in my control or not, I'm unable to say that.

Can you stop a thought from coming?

I can distract myself when a thought has partially come. When a thought about any past event comes, I can distract myself by doing some other thing.

Can you stop it in the middle?

I can't stop a thought in the middle, but when a thought comes and I don't want to think that thought, some other associated thought arises.

Do you know what the next thought will be?

There is no way I can say what the next thought is going to be.

Is "I" a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

When I imagine a table, an image of a table comes. When I imagine 'I', an image of my body, along with the insecurities about my face that I have, comes. I imagine of myself as someone with a particular body, particular face, particular personality and particular insecurities. My insecurities are the things I associate most strongly with myself. So, my 'I' thought is different from thought of a table.

Can a thought think?

Thoughts can't think. Thinking just happens.

[smi]

Hi Sparsh,

Great answers…

I have no idea where thoughts come from.

Can you trace a thought to its source or does it just show up – appear out of nowhere, so to speak?

I just lie down and decide to think, all kinds of thoughts from past emerge.

What is »I decide to think«? Isn't that a thought too? Where did it come from?

Then I decide to do something and get up, and thoughts are gone.

Again, isn’t “I decide to do something” a thought as well?

Thoughts can come from external factors too. I hear my mom speaking outside, and an image of my mom comes.

Yes, thoughts can be triggered by many things including thoughts themselves. It helps not to be so much focused on “content” of thoughts but simply watch them for what they are – only thoughts.

We are often “obsessed” by “our” thoughts, believing they are our thoughts and that we think them and that they are important and meaningful.

But let’s test that. Let’s see how thoughts really work and what they really are. And one way is to try to find the supposed thinker of thoughts. If there is thinker than there is most likely also control of thoughts…

smi wrote:Are you in control of them?

There's a series of associations in thoughts. I think one thought, then another associated thought comes, then another, and so on.

Yes, there may be many associations triggering thoughts… But is there any thought at all that you can actually control?

I'm not sure whether I can choose what thought to think, or not. Either thought comes on its own, or I decide to think something. But I'm not sure what I choose to think is in my control. I choose to think of America. But why did I think of America, and not France ? Whether my choice of thought is in my control or not, I'm unable to say that.

Your America and France example was great. Yes, why would you choose one over the other? Why not something else completely?

Really test this. Try to think only one thought for let’s say five minutes. Can you do that? Can you be absolutely certain what your next thought is going to be?

Pick any thought at all. How come you picked that particular thought? Did you choose it out a list of possible thoughts? Is it possible there is no control whatsoever over thoughts?

If you had control over thoughts, how would that manifest? Wouldn’t you be able to simply stop whatever so called “negative” thought and choose only so called “good” thoughts?

Please, really play with that for a while. Look, experiment, test and really notice how thinking is happening.

I can distract myself when a thought has partially come. When a thought about any past event comes, I can distract myself by doing some other thing.

So in other words, after a certain thought another thought appears that is labeled distraction or that doesn’t follow certain “thought path” or “train of thoughts”.

Is that really stopping of thoughts? Did you choose to do that or did that just happen?

I can't stop a thought in the middle, but when a thought comes and I don't want to think that thought, some other associated thought arises.

Could you please explain how you do that? Isn't "I don't want to think that thought" a thought? Did you choose that thought? How?

There is no way I can say what the next thought is going to be.

Yes, great. So in other words, there is no control of thoughts? And I mean absolutely 0 (zero) control - none at all.

When I imagine a table, an image of a table comes. When I imagine 'I', an image of my body, along with the insecurities about my face that I have, comes. I imagine of myself as someone with a particular body, particular face, particular personality and particular insecurities. My insecurities are the things I associate most strongly with myself. So, my 'I' thought is different from thought of a table.

There are already many steps here in what you’re describing. If you compare just the internal “voice” that says “table” and “I” without any associated images, sensations and sounds, is there any difference between “table” and “I”?

Yes, as soon as you say for example “I” a lot of associated images, sensations and other thoughts may follow almost instantly, but not quite. There is a gap there between direct experience and associated images, sensations and other thoughts that may follow shortly. The more you observe simply raw sensing and also flow of thoughts and images this gap becomes more and more obvious. So for now I wouldn’t give too much meaning to thought “I” and all its associations.

Look for yourself; is there a thinker of thoughts?

Thoughts can't think. Thinking just happens.

Yes, brilliant.

Is the content of thoughts really that important to feel insecure or feel any other unpleasant emotion?
How do you see thinking now?
Would you like to add anything else to this topic of thinking?

Kind regards
Milan

[Sparsh]

Please give me some time Milan. I need to ponder deep on these.

[smi]

Sure, no problem :)

[Sparsh]

Can you trace a thought to its source or does it just show up – appear out of nowhere, so to speak?

They seem to appear out of nowhere. I'm unable to trace it to its source.

What is »I decide to think«? Isn't that a thought too? Where did it come from?

Yeah, it's a thought. This thought too seems to come out of nowhere.

Again, isn’t “I decide to do something” a thought as well?

It's a thought, but when I decide to do something and start doing it, previous thoughts are no more.

But let’s test that. Let’s see how thoughts really work and what they really are. And one way is to try to find the supposed thinker of thoughts. If there is thinker than there is most likely also control of thoughts…

I realised I'm not in control of my thoughts. As I'm not in control of my thoughts, I'm not the thinker of my thoughts.

Yes, there may be many associations triggering thoughts… But is there any thought at all that you can actually control?

I'm not in control of my thoughts. Either the thoughts arise from external influences, or they arise on their own. When I try to change the thoughts, other associated thoughts come.

Your America and France example was great. Yes, why would you choose one over the other? Why not something else completely?
Really test this. Try to think only one thought for let’s say five minutes. Can you do that? Can you be absolutely certain what your next thought is going to be?
Pick any thought at all. How come you picked that particular thought? Did you choose it out a list of possible thoughts? Is it possible there is no control whatsoever over thoughts?

I'm unable to say why I chose America, and not France or any other place.
I try to think of my college for 5 minutes, but after a few seconds, thought of my cousin's home comes. Then I realize I shouldn't have changed my thought. Then I realize my thinking that I shouldn't have changed my thought is a thought too, and so on . . . .
I cannot say at all what my next thought is going to be.
I have no idea why I picked that particular thought.
When I choose to make a list of thoughts to think and decide to think only the thoughts from that list, I fail, as other thoughts arise too.
Yeah, its very possible that there is no control over thoughts.

If you had control over thoughts, how would that manifest? Wouldn’t you be able to simply stop whatever so called “negative” thought and choose only so called “good” thoughts?

Please, really play with that for a while. Look, experiment, test and really notice how thinking is happening.

If I had control over thoughts, I'd choose only good thoughts, and be happy all the time.
Thinking is largely influenced by mental conditioning. I perceive by thinking a good and positive thought, or a negative thought based on my conditioning with past experiences.
For example, if I'm secure about my appearance, I'd take it positively when someone looked at me, while if I'm quite insecure about my appearance, and when someone would look at me, I'd think they are looking at me because I appear bad, weird etc.

So in other words, after a certain thought another thought appears that is labeled distraction or that doesn’t follow certain “thought path” or “train of thoughts”.

Is that really stopping of thoughts? Did you choose to do that or did that just happen?

That would be replacing the thought with some other thought that makes me do something else.
I'm not sure whether I chose it or not, by thinking about distracting myself has to have something to do with my conditioning that makes me think of doing something distracting when an unpleasant thought arises.

Could you please explain how you do that? Isn't "I don't want to think that thought" a thought? Did you choose that thought? How?

Some unpleasant thought arises, then I dislike that thought, then I want to think something else, then I think some other associated thought that isn't unpleasant.
My dislikeness of a thought is a feeling. I feel bad with a thought then want to think something else. My wanting to think something else is a desire. This desire is motivated by a feeling of dislikeness.
I'm unable to see a feeling or a desire as a thought. Can you explain to me about feelings and desires ?

There are already many steps here in what you’re describing. If you compare just the internal “voice” that says “table” and “I” without any associated images, sensations and sounds, is there any difference between “table” and “I”?

I'm not able to think of table without imagining a table, and 'I' without imagining my body and associated personality and insecurities.
But when I say 'table' and 'I' in my mind, both are voices.

Look for yourself; is there a thinker of thoughts?

There is no thinker of thoughts, but mental conditioning is the source of thoughts.

Is the content of thoughts really that important to feel insecure or feel any other unpleasant emotion?
How do you see thinking now?
Would you like to add anything else to this topic of thinking?

The content of my thoughts, especially the ones about people who look down on me, or treat me bad describe how they perceive me.
My conclusion that some people look down on me, or treat me bad is based on feelings of being perceived negatively.
Can you please tell me what feelings are and how they arise ? How do they arise without thoughts preceding them ? Is it that they start arising automatically without being preceded by thoughts when the same pattern of thoughts is repeated for years ?

[smi]

Hi Sparsh,

Just a short recap:

In direct experience thoughts simply appear and disappear »out of nowhere«.
There is no one in control of them. They simply arise out of certain conditions automatically.
There is no thinker of thoughts.
Thoughts do not think.

Are there any doubts about this?

That would be replacing the thought with some other thought that makes me do something else.
I'm not sure whether I chose it or not, by thinking about distracting myself has to have something to do with my conditioning that makes me think of doing something distracting when an unpleasant thought arises.

Again, did you actually do any of that, or did that simply happen automatically on its own?

Some unpleasant thought arises, then I dislike that thought, then I want to think something else, then I think some other associated thought that isn't unpleasant.

How did disliking of a thought happen? Did you do that, or did that happen on its own? How did desire to think something else come to be? Did you desire or is that just a next thought/feeling that showed up? And also how did YOU think some other associated thought? Isn’t that just a next thought that showed up?

My dislikeness of a thought is a feeling. I feel bad with a thought then want to think something else. My wanting to think something else is a desire. This desire is motivated by a feeling of dislikeness.
I'm unable to see a feeling or a desire as a thought. Can you explain to me about feelings and desires ?

Please describe what are thought, feeling and desire to you? How do you see/perceive them? How are they different? What makes them different?

Is the content of thoughts really that important to feel insecure or feel any other unpleasant emotion?
How do you see thinking now?
Would you like to add anything else to this topic of thinking?

The content of my thoughts, especially the ones about people who look down on me, or treat me bad describe how they perceive me.
My conclusion that some people look down on me, or treat me bad is based on feelings of being perceived negatively.

I think you misunderstood my first question and didn’t answer all of them. Let me rephrase the first one:

As all thoughts are automatic, is content of thoughts really that important? Or, as they are not your thoughts, why care about what they say?

Now, I don’t mean thoughts are not useful sometimes, but what I’m trying to point to is that thoughts shouldn’t be taken too seriously.

After all, is anything wrong with right now unless you think about it?
When thinking is not happening, do you have any problems?

And please, answer: “how do you see thinking now?”

Can you please tell me what feelings are and how they arise ? How do they arise without thoughts preceding them ? Is it that they start arising automatically without being preceded by thoughts when the same pattern of thoughts is repeated for years ?

My job here is only to point toward the gate and your job is to look where I point and report back what you see. I’m not a teacher and as soon as we dive into conversation and exchanging points of view, our journey toward the gate would be obscured and we would get nowhere fast.

So I recommend we keep our focus on the gate. I know a lot of questions may come up for you, you may also have a bunch of small or big “aha moments”, but those are all distractions, so to speak. Once you master the art of looking you’ll easily answer all of your own questions. And those answers are all that truly counts. Second hand knowledge in this case is only distraction. You need to see it for yourself directly.

I did ask few questions about feelings above so please have a look and see what you come up with. And I would also like to acknowledge that you're doing great job looking. Keep up the good work, we are getting closer. :)

Kind regards
Milan

[Sparsh]

I'll reply soon Milan.

[Sparsh]

In direct experience thoughts simply appear and disappear »out of nowhere«.
There is no one in control of them. They simply arise out of certain conditions automatically.
There is no thinker of thoughts.
Thoughts do not think.

Are there any doubts about this?

There is no thinker of thoughts, but why do I feel bad when some unpleasant thoughts come ? 'I' is a thought too, but who feels bad when having unpleasant thoughts ?

Again, did you actually do any of that, or did that simply happen automatically on its own?

The thought about distracting myself too happened on its own, with its source being the conditioning.

How did disliking of a thought happen? Did you do that, or did that happen on its own? How did desire to think something else come to be? Did you desire or is that

just a next thought/feeling that showed up? And also how did YOU think some other associated thought? Isn’t that just a next thought that showed up?

An unpleasant thought comes, it brings me pain, then I hate that thought. More than the thought, I hate the reason why someone behaved with me that the thought says.
For example, a thought about someone looking down on me appears. Then I realize they didn't look up on me because of the way I appear to them.
My dislikeness of the thought, or what the thought points to, isn't in my control. I just feel bad when unpleasant thought(s) appear.
The desire to have pleasant thought(s) is a feeling, which is again dependent on my conditioning.
Yes, the other associated thought too isn't in my control. I'm unable to decide which associated thought I'm going to think.
It all depends on my conditioning.

Please describe what are thought, feeling and desire to you? How do you see/perceive them? How are they different? What makes them different?

Thoughts is primarily like a 3D video, with pictures and sounds in motion. Feeling is different from a thought. Feeling is an emotional sensation which manifests in
form of physical sensation, like sensations in heart, in head etc.
Thoughts come in form of images in motion with sounds, while feleings come as emotional and physical sensations. Desire is a feeling.
Feelings arise from thoughts, although in many cases, feelings arise without preceding thought(s).

As all thoughts are automatic, is content of thoughts really that important? Or, as they are not your thoughts, why care about what they say?

My thoughts depend on my conditioning. My perception and my thought of my perception of someone treating me badly shows me how I'm perceived, how my attitudes are perceived, how my body language is perceived, how my facial expressions are perceived, and makes me miserable when I perceive them negatively.

After all, is anything wrong with right now unless you think about it?
When thinking is not happening, do you have any problems?

Everything seems to be good when thoughts are not there. But the events in past and anticipation of problems in future makes me think so that I can avoid problems in future.

“how do you see thinking now?”

Thinking is all about conditioning. My conditioning makes me perceive events in a certain way, and think in a certain way.

you may also have a bunch of small or big “aha moments”, but those are all distractions, so to speak.

I did not have aha moments per se, but there were times I felt kind of scared for no reason, or feeling loving towards people for no reason.

[smi]

Hi Sparsh,

Thanks for answering all questions. There were a lot of interesting points expressed, however I would like to focus on just one particular response you wrote.

My thoughts depend on my conditioning. My perception and my thought of my perception of someone treating me badly shows me how I'm perceived, how my attitudes are perceived, how my body language is perceived, how my facial expressions are perceived, and makes me miserable when I perceive them negatively.

Notice all “my”s in this response. My thoughts, my conditioning, my perception… and many more. Let’s look into that.

We already looked at thoughts to some extent. We saw thoughts arise automatically on their own – depending on various “external” and “internal” conditions. So what makes thoughts “your thoughts”? What is claiming them? What owns them? What makes conditioning “your conditioning”? What makes perception “your perception”, etc…

Please read following Ilona’s article: http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/201 ... guage.html

I would encourage you to do an experiment and for a whole day – 24 hours try to express everything that is happening only as an action without subject – without using words like Sparsh, I, me, myself, mine, etc…

For example instead of saying “I’m typing my response” say “typing of response is happening”. Basically it is that labeling exercise from few days ago.

Of course, you don’t have to talk to your friends and family out loud in this way but just notice every time you use personal pronouns and just as an experiment try to rephrase it using verbs only. Just notice if the world still makes sense. Notice if anything changes. Notice how do you feel using pronouns and how do you feel using verbs only.

A little warning about a trap:

Thinking is all about conditioning. My conditioning makes me perceive events in a certain way, and think in a certain way.

Notice how you acknowledge that thinking is automatic and there is no control over it, as you have seen for yourself, however there is still tendency to assign “a doer” or “I” or “me” or acting subject on a slightly deeper level. In other words there is tendency to shift or move this “I” somewhere else.

For example above you stated: “Thinking is all about conditioning”. And then the very next statement begins with “my conditioning”. Ownership just slightly shifted. So please, be on lookout about that. Do exercise without any personal pronouns at all.

Please report back about your insights while experimenting with language in this way.

Kind regards
Milan